YOU are Satan...

[Beloved Servant]

Me too!
Me too!

[trettep]

I believe that if Satan were indeed an outside entity then he would never want me to believe that I'm satan at all. 

Paul

[Molly]

..and Jesus said 'tempt not God" in response to

 the temptor in the wilderness.

When I read this,  I saw for the first time that Jesus was referring to himself when he warned Satan--Don't tempt God.



6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

 7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

--Mat 4





Another rebuke to Satan--



4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

--Mat 4



Does God have a mouth?





1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

[Seth]

Hi Paul 

Hi Seth, the scriptures say this:

Heb 4:15 
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

If Jesus couldn't conceive lust and hate in His heart then He was NOT tempted like we are.  For we can.  And this verse gives credit that He was also as it says in all points that He was tempted like as we are. 

Look what that verse says. First of all, the word "as we are, yet" is italic in the KJV, meaning it isn't there originally. The word "without" is "choris" meaning without, besides, apart from:

Mt 14:21
And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, besides (choris) women and children.

Heb 4:15 -
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted similarly besides (choris - without, apart from) sin.

What it is saying is that Jesus was touched with the feeling of our infirmities APART FROM, or BESIDES SIN. Whatever infirmities we have, and there are many, he felt them all ... apart from sin.

If Jesus didn't have a carnal nature to overcome then why come in the Flesh?  God's Word says:

Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Notice it says likeness of SINFUL flesh.  It doesn't say nonsinful flesh.  The flesh He had - somehow had to be able to sin.

Paul, the question is not whether Christ was made flesh. He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh. HOWEVER, the scripture is clear that His mind was not in that flesh but in heaven.

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which IS in heaven.

When I was an ETer, that made no sense to me. I didn't realize that Christ was in Heaven seated with God while he was on the earth speaking to them. The way that is true, is that while Christ was made flesh, his MIND was not IN THE FLESH because the spirit of God dwelled in him. His mind was in heaven, hidden in his Father. The Father kept him from sin, and in doing so, he preserved Christ as a spotless lamb to die for the ungodly, thus revealing his love for humanity. The love of God is in that a pure, completely innocent man was murdered for the sake of his murderers.

Philippians 4:7
And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

God did the same thing for Christ. He KEPT Christ's mind! Again, Christ had the Spirit without measure, so without measure his mind was kept in heaven, thus purified and preserved a spotless lamb for the slaughter.

He condemns sin in the flesh but not giving into its own lusts.  For that to happen He has to have the lusts conceived in His own heart and more so.  Since Jesus knows His own Status as God's Son then think what LEVEL of Pride could have overcame Him? 

I don't need to think about that. It isn't in the scriptures. He was tested to show that he was not prideful, because his mind was in heaven being kept by his Father.

Ever see someone get a little power and how fast they tend to abuse it?  That is because they can't overcome the temptation to use it in a way that is self centered.  Here you have Jesus with so much power and authority and yet He doesn't give into the temptations.  And those temptations came from within His own flesh.  If Jesus didn't have a carnal nature to overcome then He can't claim to have put down a carnal nature.  We have a carnal nature that needs to be overcome.  If Jesus didn't do the same then He cannot be an example to how we shall overcome.

Of course he could! Think about what you are saying. Jesus didn't need to overcome OF HIS OWN EFFORTS. That is the whole point of the Gospel! God CHOSE Jesus to be perfected in the Spirit, just as he chooses his elect to be perfected with a measured amount of the Spirit. Jesus didn't need to reach perfection of his own struggles. God was his strength, and Christ entered into "God's rest" without measure. Jesus explicitly told us:

John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

The whole point of the Gospel is that the Godly nature SAVES US not according to our effort, but by renewing our minds according to the pre-election of God. The Holy Spirit is what changes our godless passions, not our feeble struggles. That's the whole point of Christ's mind being kept by God. CHRIST RESTED in GOD, not struggling in himself. THAT is what we are to see and emulate as we walk in his footsteps.

This is what is meant by putting down sin in ones flesh.

Condemnation is from the word meaning "judgment." He judged sin in the flesh. He gave sin a death sentence. That's what that means.

[sheila]

   I don't know ,Paul...Go figure

   seems to me he'd rather hear that then this ...

   I AM THE SON OF GOD or this...

   Get behind me Satan! or this

  Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called  SONS of

  GOD.

 seems to me they liked to say  'by the prince of demons he is

driving out demons'[Mark 3;22]   Jesus said..How CAN SATAN

 drive out Satan?'

   I don't know Paul..but it seems to me that you LOVE  

..he that Loves is born of God..now maybe that love is

  not perfected  yet. But,I trust Him that all His sons and

daughters will be....


  ...tell that fox, I will drive out demons and heal people today

 and tomorrow,and on the third day I WILL REACH MY GOAL


  SOS 2;15  Catch for us the foxes,the little foxes that ruin the

vineyards,our vineyards that are in bloom

[trettep]

...

He condemns sin in the flesh but not giving into its own lusts.  For that to happen He has to have the lusts conceived in His own heart and more so.  Since Jesus knows His own Status as God's Son then think what LEVEL of Pride could have overcame Him? 

I don't need to think about that. It isn't in the scriptures.

The "Jesus" your describing is NOT a Jesus that can save me.  The ONLY Jesus that can save me is one that can think EVIL as I do and overcome that evil.  The ONLY Jesus that can save me is one that is a MAN just as I am a MAN.  If your telling me about a Jesus that couldn't put down sin in his own flesh because he didn't have to (because that wasn't applicable to him) then that "Jesus" is not one that can save me.  I need a Christ that is a MAN just as I am a MAN that can save me.  What your describing is someone that was of the flesh but not the SAME flesh as a MAN.

Paul

[trettep]

Seth read this:

Heb 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

This is talking about Jesus.  He had to LEARN.  He had to reach perfection.  He couldn't reach that perfection unless He overcame that nature of man that He was.  I'm separating here Christ and Jesus because I see a separation in the scriptures. 

Paul

[Seth]

...

He condemns sin in the flesh but not giving into its own lusts.  For that to happen He has to have the lusts conceived in His own heart and more so.  Since Jesus knows His own Status as God's Son then think what LEVEL of Pride could have overcame Him? 

I don't need to think about that. It isn't in the scriptures.

The "Jesus" your describing is NOT a Jesus that can save me.  The ONLY Jesus that can save me is one that can think EVIL as I do and overcome that evil.  The ONLY Jesus that can save me is one that is a MAN just as I am a MAN.  If your telling me about a Jesus that couldn't put down sin in his own flesh because he didn't have to (because that wasn't applicable to him) then that "Jesus" is not one that can save me.  I need a Christ that is a MAN just as I am a MAN that can save me.  What your describing is someone that was of the flesh but not the SAME flesh as a MAN.

Paul

The Jesus that can save you is the one who died for you Paul. You need whatever Jesus God provided for you. You don't get to pick your Jesus's

[Seth]

Seth read this:

Heb 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

This is talking about Jesus.  He had to LEARN.  He had to reach perfection.  He couldn't reach that perfection unless He overcame that nature of man that He was.  I'm separating here Christ and Jesus because I see a separation in the scriptures. 

Paul

You are jumping to an assumption and the above is a false dilemma. That Christ learned obedience does not necessitate he was at one time disobedient. It means he grew in obedience from the ground up, like a tree, or a vine. He was a blank slate who learned obedience through the suffering he experienced APART from sin.

[trettep]

...

He condemns sin in the flesh but not giving into its own lusts.  For that to happen He has to have the lusts conceived in His own heart and more so.  Since Jesus knows His own Status as God's Son then think what LEVEL of Pride could have overcame Him? 

I don't need to think about that. It isn't in the scriptures.

The "Jesus" your describing is NOT a Jesus that can save me.  The ONLY Jesus that can save me is one that can think EVIL as I do and overcome that evil.  The ONLY Jesus that can save me is one that is a MAN just as I am a MAN.  If your telling me about a Jesus that couldn't put down sin in his own flesh because he didn't have to (because that wasn't applicable to him) then that "Jesus" is not one that can save me.  I need a Christ that is a MAN just as I am a MAN that can save me.  What your describing is someone that was of the flesh but not the SAME flesh as a MAN.

Paul

The Jesus that can save you is the one who died for you Paul. You need whatever Jesus God provided for you. You don't get to pick your Jesus's

My point Seth, is that the Jesus that God's Word is describing is one that IS a man AS I'm a man.  I must surely pick the one that He tells me to pick.

Paul

[Seth]

Yes, He was a man without sin. You are not. That is why he commends his love to you that while he was sinless, he died for YOU, a one time enemy of God. THAT is the point of Christ being a spotless lamb, the revelation of Love toward you.

[trettep]

Seth read this:

Heb 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

This is talking about Jesus.  He had to LEARN.  He had to reach perfection.  He couldn't reach that perfection unless He overcame that nature of man that He was.  I'm separating here Christ and Jesus because I see a separation in the scriptures. 

Paul

You are jumping to an assumption and the above is a false dilemma. That Christ learned obedience does not necessitate he was at one time disobedient. It means he grew in obedience from the ground up, like a tree, or a vine. He was a blank slate who learned obedience through the suffering he experienced APART from sin.

I never said it meant that He was ever disobedient but it shows that an aspect of disobedience was necessary to overcome.  You can't be considered obedient if you can't become disobedient.

Paul

[trettep]

Yes, He was a man without sin. You are not. That is why he commends his love to you that while he was sinless, he died for YOU, a one time enemy of God. THAT is the point of Christ being a spotless lamb, the revelation of Love toward you.

Seth, He was spotless because He didn't let the conception of lust in His OWN heart become sin.

Paul

[Seth]

Seth read this:

Heb 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

This is talking about Jesus.  He had to LEARN.  He had to reach perfection.  He couldn't reach that perfection unless He overcame that nature of man that He was.  I'm separating here Christ and Jesus because I see a separation in the scriptures. 

Paul

You are jumping to an assumption and the above is a false dilemma. That Christ learned obedience does not necessitate he was at one time disobedient. It means he grew in obedience from the ground up, like a tree, or a vine. He was a blank slate who learned obedience through the suffering he experienced APART from sin.

I never said it meant that He was ever disobedient but it shows that an aspect of disobedience was necessary to overcome.  You can't be considered obedient if you can't become disobedient.

Paul

Sure you can, there is the false dilemma. You say "you CANNOT be considered obedience if you cannot become disobedient." That is a false dilemma. You can be considered obedient, by being obedient.

Seth, He was spotless because He didn't let the conception of lust in His OWN heart become sin.

He was spotless because he was apart from sin. He was spotless because while he was made flesh, he was not in the flesh. He was spotless in that he was not an adulterer in his heart or a murderer due to hate from within. Confining sin to an outward act alone contradicts the scripture. What proceeded outward from Christ did not defile him, because nothing within him was evil, being that he was not in the flesh but in Heaven.

[trettep]

Seth read this:

Heb 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

This is talking about Jesus.  He had to LEARN.  He had to reach perfection.  He couldn't reach that perfection unless He overcame that nature of man that He was.  I'm separating here Christ and Jesus because I see a separation in the scriptures. 

Paul

You are jumping to an assumption and the above is a false dilemma. That Christ learned obedience does not necessitate he was at one time disobedient. It means he grew in obedience from the ground up, like a tree, or a vine. He was a blank slate who learned obedience through the suffering he experienced APART from sin.

I never said it meant that He was ever disobedient but it shows that an aspect of disobedience was necessary to overcome.  You can't be considered obedient if you can't become disobedient.

Paul

Sure you can, there is the false dilemma. You say "you CANNOT be considered obedience if you cannot become disobedient." That is a false dilemma. You can be considered obedient, by being obedient.

Then why did He have to LEARN obedience?  If He just already was?

Seth, He was spotless because He didn't let the conception of lust in His OWN heart become sin.

He was spotless because he was apart from sin. He was spotless because while he was made flesh, he was not in the flesh.

Seth, if Jesus couldn't conceive of evil in His own heart then how could you consider Him to be a man?

Paul

[trettep]

Heb 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Here we see that Jesus is made just like we are.  He was a man.  Shouldn't ALL Things means that He has the same capacity to sin as we do?  The next verse answers:
 
Heb 2:18  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

The verse here refutes any contrary claim.  It shows that Jesus was indeed Tempted.  It follows the flow of the previous verse as it pertains to being a man after the same likeness of his brothers.  So Jesus was TEMPTED.  This is a direct result of being made like unto His brethren.  We can't break this verse away from the context and ascribe other meaning to it.  Verse 18 shows that being tempted is in context with being made like His brothers. 

Paul

[Seth]

Then why did He have to LEARN obedience?  If He just already was?

You just got through telling me that you never said he was disobedient. Are you now saying he was? I already told you how one can learn obedience without being disobedient.

Seth, if Jesus couldn't conceive of evil in His own heart then how could you consider Him to be a man?

Paul

Yes I consider him to be a man without sin. Just like the scripture says.

[Seth]

Heb 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Here we see that Jesus is made just like we are.  He was a man.  Shouldn't ALL Things means that He has the same capacity to sin as we do?  The next verse answers:
 
Heb 2:18  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

The verse here refutes any contrary claim.  It shows that Jesus was indeed Tempted.  It follows the flow of the previous verse as it pertains to being a man after the same likeness of his brothers.  So Jesus was TEMPTED.  This is a direct result of being made like unto His brethren.  We can't break this verse away from the context and ascribe other meaning to it.  Verse 18 shows that being tempted is in context with being made like His brothers. 

Paul

He was make like unto his brothers APART FROM SIN. I did not deny that Jesus was tested. He suffered BEING tested, not feeling sin in his heart. Two different things. Being apart from sin, he was not subject to the flesh like we are. Spotless lamb.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi  brother P...

What do you mean by the statement that "they have always BEEN, as have we..."?

YHVH ...IS... ALL in ALL... He NEVER CHANGES... that things are occuring IN TIME which is a "PART" of ETERNITY, only means that ALL EVENTS in TIME are also IN HIM and HAVE "ALWAYS BEEN" within Him, yet UNREVEALED...

Example:  Eventually, once our course in time is complete, we enter the realm of the Heavenly... Does "Heaven" find its origin in our vision?  Or is its vision which has ALWAYS BEEN,  being REVEALED (or -- as I believe, "RE-REVEALED") to us?

If you observe the Parable of the LOST SON... or the LOST COIN, or the LOST SHEEP... all of these were WITH the OWNER/Father, before becoming "LOST" (destroyed/Apollumi)... they BECAME LOST, then were RETRIEVED... and found themselves where they were BEFORE they became LOST.

YHVH God's "creation" always IS... for it lies WITHIN Him -- Acts 17:28 ...IN HIM, we live and move and have our BEING...

If in fact we are IN HIM... and HE never CHANGES... then we have ALWAYS "BEEN", ...IN HIM...

We stand on a FINITE platform and are unable to BEHOLD the INFINITE for it is beyond us to SEE (unrevealed to us), however... the INFINITE (which YHVH IS) beholds the FINITE (time and its participants) before it actually ...IS... (in its chronology) and then REVEALS it to IT, ...in its observance of ITSELF...  

THIS realm is ALWAYS a part of ETERNITY, but the events which occur in this REALM, once revealed are not PRACTICED in ETERNITY, other than within the course of TIME... which (time) is SPENT in the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... to the CHILDREN of YHVH which have ALWAYS BEEN...

Example:  I know things my grandchildren do not know... Does the knowledge that I hold, begin with them "learning it"?  Or has it been present all along... and they ARE unaware of its presence?  And does that "revelation" find that the knowledge represents a change in anything?  Or is it a representation a "present thing" WITHIN the Children, ...which the Children were just unaware of?

A newborn child has arms, legs, a mind, etc...  and the ability to use them IS WITHIN them, ...but the revelation of this PRESENT ability TAKES TIME to unfold in THEIR EXPERIENCE and "OBSERVATION"...

My take on angels is that it is simply a reference to messengers.

You are absolutely correct, however... there ARE ...MESSENGERS... within the FINITE realm of TIME (apostles, human witnesses, etc), and messengers which are within and amongst and FROM the INFINITE (which includes both the finite and infinite)... "Gabriel for example"... was a "messenger" which was NOT finite... but was able to be a part of the FINITE realm because of the ordination of YHVH for Gabriel, to be part of TIME's course according to YHVH's PURPOSE for that realm...

JESUS CHRIST gives us another vision of one who WAS here, YET THERE simultaneously -- John 3:13 -- "paints" CHRIST as HERE, yet THERE... His "ascension" was an event IN TIME, but was already a matter of INFINITY... INFINITY determines the TOTALITY of TIME and declares it to BE, even though it has yet to experience itself...

An Apostle for example, is one I would call an Angel, as they are SENT with a message.

I don't disagree with this Paul... but FINITES are NOT the only messengers... We have visitation from the INFINITE, of messengers FROM the INFINITE... which have purposed involvement in the course of the FINITE, by God...

The point being that the messengers of the INFINITE actively partake in the realization and course of the FINITE, ...as the PURPOSE of YHVH is to reveal His INFINITE self, to the FINITE, which takes place IN the FINITE...  

...willieH  

[Seth]

Heb 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Here we see that Jesus is made just like we are.  He was a man.  Shouldn't ALL Things means that He has the same capacity to sin as we do?  The next verse answers:
 
Heb 2:18  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Check both Hebrews 2 and 5 to see the context in which the testing is:

15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.
16 For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.

The testing described in both 2 and 5 is fear of death, the persecution of the world which Christ overcame.

[trettep]

Then why did He have to LEARN obedience?  If He just already was?

You just got through telling me that you never said he was disobedient. Are you now saying he was? I already told you how one can learn obedience without being disobedient.

Seth, if Jesus couldn't conceive of evil in His own heart then how could you consider Him to be a man?

Paul

I got done telling you he had to overcome an aspect of disobedience which is a reference to the Evil that would be conceived in his heart.  If He conceives the evil in His heart and doesn't act on that evil then He has been obedient.  I explained that before.  I still don't understand your explaination of how one can be obedient if they could never be disobedient.

Yes I consider him to be a man without sin. Just like the scripture says.

No, you don't believe just like the scripture says.  It says that Jesus was a man.  A man conceives evil.  You don't believe that Jesus conceives evil do you?

Paul

[trettep]

Heb 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Here we see that Jesus is made just like we are.  He was a man.  Shouldn't ALL Things means that He has the same capacity to sin as we do?  The next verse answers:
 
Heb 2:18  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

The verse here refutes any contrary claim.  It shows that Jesus was indeed Tempted.  It follows the flow of the previous verse as it pertains to being a man after the same likeness of his brothers.  So Jesus was TEMPTED.  This is a direct result of being made like unto His brethren.  We can't break this verse away from the context and ascribe other meaning to it.  Verse 18 shows that being tempted is in context with being made like His brothers. 

Paul

He was make like unto his brothers APART FROM SIN. I did not deny that Jesus was tested. He suffered BEING tested, not feeling sin in his heart. Two different things. Being apart from sin, he was not subject to the flesh like we are. Spotless lamb.

Then if He was made like unto His brothers then He must be able to conceive sin in His heart then, correct?  If not, what is He being tested for?  He if couldn't be subject to the flesh and we are then He is not like us, correct?

Notice here that at no time did I say He sinned.  I know your probably getting impatient with me comparing Him to a MAN but I do this because the alternative is to declare that He came not as a man and I believe that would be preaching the spirit of antichrist.

Paul

[trettep]

willieH: Hi  brother P...

What do you mean by the statement that "they have always BEEN, as have we..."?

YHVH ...IS... ALL in ALL... He NEVER CHANGES... that things are occuring IN TIME which is a "PART" of ETERNITY, only means that ALL EVENTS in TIME are also IN HIM and HAVE "ALWAYS BEEN" within Him, yet UNREVEALED...

Example:  Eventually, once our course in time is complete, we enter the realm of the Heavenly... Does "Heaven" find its origin in our vision?  Or is its vision which has ALWAYS BEEN,  being REVEALED (or -- as I believe, "RE-REVEALED") to us?

If you observe the Parable of the LOST SON... or the LOST COIN, or the LOST SHEEP... all of these were WITH the OWNER/Father, before becoming "LOST" (destroyed/Apollumi)... they BECAME LOST, then were RETRIEVED... and found themselves where they were BEFORE they became LOST.

YHVH God's "creation" always IS... for it lies WITHIN Him -- Acts 17:28 ...IN HIM, we live and move and have our BEING...

If in fact we are IN HIM... and HE never CHANGES... then we have ALWAYS "BEEN", ...IN HIM...

We stand on a FINITE platform and are unable to BEHOLD the INFINITE for it is beyond us to SEE (unrevealed to us), however... the INFINITE (which YHVH IS) beholds the FINITE (time and its participants) before it actually ...IS... (in its chronology) and then REVEALS it to IT, ...in its observance of ITSELF...  

THIS realm is ALWAYS a part of ETERNITY, but the events which occur in this REALM, once revealed are not PRACTICED in ETERNITY, other than within the course of TIME... which (time) is SPENT in the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... to the CHILDREN of YHVH which have ALWAYS BEEN...

Example:  I know things my grandchildren do not know... Does the knowledge that I hold, begin with them "learning it"?  Or has it been present all along... and they ARE unaware of its presence?  And does that "revelation" find that the knowledge represents a change in anything?  Or is it a representation a "present thing" WITHIN the Children, ...which the Children were just unaware of?

A newborn child has arms, legs, a mind, etc...  and the ability to use them IS WITHIN them, ...but the revelation of this PRESENT ability TAKES TIME to unfold in THEIR EXPERIENCE and "OBSERVATION"...

My take on angels is that it is simply a reference to messengers.

You are absolutely correct, however... there ARE ...MESSENGERS... within the FINITE realm of TIME (apostles, human witnesses, etc), and messengers which are within and amongst and FROM the INFINITE (which includes both the finite and infinite)... "Gabriel for example"... was a "messenger" which was NOT finite... but was able to be a part of the FINITE realm because of the ordination of YHVH for Gabriel, to be part of TIME's course according to YHVH's PURPOSE for that realm...

JESUS CHRIST gives us another vision of one who WAS here, YET THERE simultaneously -- John 3:13 -- "paints" CHRIST as HERE, yet THERE... His "ascension" was an event IN TIME, but was already a matter of INFINITY... INFINITY determines the TOTALITY of TIME and declares it to BE, even though it has yet to experience itself...

An Apostle for example, is one I would call an Angel, as they are SENT with a message.

I don't disagree with this Paul... but FINITES are NOT the only messengers... We have visitation from the INFINITE, of messengers FROM the INFINITE... which have purposed involvement in the course of the FINITE, by God...

The point being that the messengers of the INFINITE actively partake in the realization and course of the FINITE, ...as the PURPOSE of YHVH is to reveal His INFINITE self, to the FINITE, which takes place IN the FINITE...  

...willieH  

I agree with a lot of what you said there Willie.  My view of Jesus is as this:

I see Jesus as being born of a virgin by divine direction.  But I see Him being born AS a man and became aware or LEARNED that He was the Christ and because He was givin that Spirit of God, that He was able to learn and partake of things that are heavenly.  I don't see Jesus has having always existed. I do see the Word of God as having always existed.  I know that Jesus is called the Word of God but I think that is because the Word of God made a home in the man Jesus.  Had not that man had the Holy Spirit from birth and had been born of the virgin then I believe He would have simply grown to be like any other man.

Paul

[trettep]

Heb 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Here we see that Jesus is made just like we are.  He was a man.  Shouldn't ALL Things means that He has the same capacity to sin as we do?  The next verse answers:
 
Heb 2:18  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Check both Hebrews 2 and 5 to see the context in which the testing is:

15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.
16 For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.

The testing described in both 2 and 5 is fear of death, the persecution of the world which Christ overcame.

Again, though don't you believe that Jesus should be made just as we are?  We can conceive sin in our heart.  Shouldn't Jesus have this ability?

Paul

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother Seth...

Btw... it's great having you around these parts again! 

Then why did He have to LEARN obedience?  If He just already was?

You just got through telling me that you never said he was disobedient. Are you now saying he was? I already told you how one can learn obedience without being disobedient.

One cannot "learn" obedience, unless DISOBEDIENCE has been presented to one as an option...  And that is what TEMPTATION ...does and IS... 

If it were NOT POSSIBLE that when the TEMPTATION was presented to CHRIST, He could not submit to it, then the "OVERCOMING" of TEMPTATION does not actually occur!

The "TEMPTATION" was "OVERCOME" because it was NOT POSSIBLE to DISOBEY... not by OBEDIENCE.

Seth, if Jesus couldn't conceive of evil in His own heart then how could you consider Him to be a man?

Yes I consider him to be a man without sin. Just like the scripture says.

But Scripture ALSO SAYS that he WAS TEMPTED (God cannot be tempted) and therefore TEMPTATION was PART of CHRIST's experience as a MAN... which does not equate to SINNING...  SINNING is found within the submission to the TEMPTATION...

CHRIST was a MAN -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- Luke 19:10 -- and EVERY MAN is TEMPTED in the SAME WAY:

James 1:14 -- but EVERY MAN... [including the "man" CHRIST] ...is TEMPTED, when he is drawn away of his own lust [desire] and enticed...

THIS, does NOT mean that one "ENTICED" is SINNING or has SINNED... it is when the ENTICEMENT is INDULGED [concieved] that SIN is born:

James 1:15 -- THEN, ...when LUST hath CONCIEVED [has been indulged], it bringeth forth SIN and SIN when it is finished, bringeth forth death...

...willieH