willieH: Hi brother P...
What do you mean by the statement that "they have always BEEN, as have we..."?YHVH
... ALL in ALL... He NEVER CHANGES... that things are occuring IN TIME which is a "PART" of ETERNITY, only means that ALL EVENTS in TIME are also IN HIM and HAVE "ALWAYS BEEN" within Him, yet UNREVEALED...Example: Eventually, once our course in time is complete, we enter the realm of the Heavenly... Does "Heaven" find its origin in our vision? Or is its vision which has ALWAYS BEEN, being REVEALED (or -- as I believe, "RE-REVEALED") to us?
If you observe the Parable of the LOST SON... or the LOST COIN, or the LOST SHEEP... all of these were WITH the OWNER/Father, before becoming "LOST" (destroyed/Apollumi)... they BECAME LOST, then were RETRIEVED... and found themselves where they were BEFORE they became LOST.YHVH
God's "creation" always IS
... for it lies WITHIN Him -- Acts 17:28 ...IN HIM, we live and move and have our BEING...
If in fact we are IN HIM
... and HE
... then we have ALWAYS "BEEN", ...IN HIM
We stand on a FINITE platform and are unable to BEHOLD the INFINITE for it is beyond us to SEE (unrevealed to us), however... the INFINITE (which YHVH
IS) beholds the FINITE (time and its participants) before it actually ...IS... (in its chronology) and then REVEALS it to IT, ...in its observance of ITSELF...
THIS realm is ALWAYS a part of ETERNITY, but the events which occur in this REALM, once revealed are not PRACTICED in ETERNITY, other than within the course of TIME... which (time) is SPENT in the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... to the CHILDREN of YHVH
which have ALWAYS BEEN...Example: I know things my grandchildren do not know... Does the knowledge that I hold, begin with them "learning it"? Or has it been present all along... and they ARE unaware of its presence? And does that "revelation" find that the knowledge represents a change in anything? Or is it a representation a "present thing" WITHIN the Children, ...which the Children were just unaware of?
A newborn child has arms, legs, a mind, etc... and the ability to use them IS WITHIN them, ...but the revelation of this PRESENT ability TAKES TIME to unfold in THEIR EXPERIENCE and "OBSERVATION"...
My take on angels is that it is simply a reference to messengers.
You are absolutely correct, however... there ARE
...MESSENGERS... within the FINITE realm of TIME (apostles, human witnesses, etc), and messengers which are within and amongst and FROM the INFINITE (which includes both the finite and infinite)... "Gabriel for example"... was a "messenger" which was NOT finite... but was able to be a part of the FINITE realm because of the ordination of YHVH
for Gabriel, to be part of TIME's course according to YHVH's PURPOSE
for that realm...JESUS CHRIST
gives us another vision of one who WAS here, YET THERE simultaneously -- John 3:13
-- "paints" CHRIST
as HERE, yet THERE... His "ascension" was an event IN TIME, but was already a matter of INFINITY... INFINITY determines the TOTALITY of TIME and declares it to BE, even though it has yet to experience itself...
An Apostle for example, is one I would call an Angel, as they are SENT with a message.
I don't disagree with this Paul... but FINITES are NOT the only messengers... We have visitation from the INFINITE, of messengers FROM the INFINITE... which have purposed involvement in the course of the FINITE, by God...
The point being that the messengers of the INFINITE actively partake in the realization and course of the FINITE, ...as the PURPOSE
is to reveal His INFINITE self, to the FINITE, which takes place IN