Author Topic: YOU are Satan...  (Read 30773 times)

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trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2009, 12:17:37 AM »
...
This man is a sorcerer by name even.   He works for the devil by choice.  He uses spirits to manipulate others.  He's a magician who casts spells and tricks people. This is a bad thing to do and carries dire consequences.
...

Can someone do the devils works without it being their choice?

Paul
well, you know, you're dangling forbidden fruit in front of me lol.   But, I will bite--yes I think they can because they are just lost and in darkness.  That's why Jesus forgives them from the cross.  They don't know what they are doing.  But, if you know the right thing and do the wrong thing anyways, aren't you in rebellion against God?  This is why he deals so harshly with the Israelites when they start worshipping their false gods; they know better.

Yes, if you know what is right thing to do and do opposite then you commit sin. 

Paul

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2009, 12:20:20 AM »

... Anyway, we will find out soon enough, at least no one will burn in Hell forever if their wrong either way. :laughing7:

Paul

I think this topic is very important because it gets down to how much of a man was Jesus?  We must know what comprises a man.  For if we believe that Satan is another being separate existing from man then we may have a wrong understanding of what man is.  And if we have a wrong understanding of what man is then we may not identify that Jesus came as a man and thus consider Him to be beyond what a man actually is.  And to not believe that Jesus came as a man is the spirit of antichrist.  So it becomes very important.

Paul


How much of a man was Jesus?
Scripture and Jesus Himself clearly teach… Jesus was 100% a man.  A human that was conceived by the Holy Spirit.  "The second Adam".  Listen to Gabriel,  "who stands in the presence of God."


Luke 1:35  The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.  Now for what reason is Jesus to be called the Son of God?  Perhaps, being conceived (Created) by the Holy Spirit?

Listen to Jesus…

Joh 8:40  "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man  who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

Listen to Peter…

Act 2:22  "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know—

Listen to Paul…

1Ti 2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men,  the man Christ Jesus,


Jesus was definitely a Man, and all of Him (Body, Soul and Spirit) died on the cross for our sins.  As you know… "The wages of sin is death."   To believe that not all of  man dies at death, (immortal soul) is to believe Satan Himself when he said…    "You surely will not die!  




Peace,
Paul





Yes, I agree that Jesus was a man.  But what were discussing here is whether Satan is a component of man - more specifically the exhibition of man's disobedient nature.  If so, then when Satan was tempting Jesus then it would mean that the thoughts of disobedience originated in Jesus' mind and thus not some external entity.

Paul

Offline sheila

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2009, 12:27:00 AM »
sorry for the delay,had company.


  no their not 'beings' they are like a parasite that attches itself

 and infiltratres a real 'being' and can cause it to act and think

 in ways it was not designed by God to do.

  It's 'nature' or mode of behaviour is the opposite of God's

   God is order..these are chaos.God is Love these are hate

  it is what makes a serpent the GREAT SERPENT..animals


 a WILD BEAST, prophets FALSE..

and when attached to mankind..man

   of sin.

  It is not us or of God,but something of a different nature

  it's knowledge does not change it's nature..it is not of love

  we need not fear it..just be aware. Jesus was aware and not

 afraid.

  we may call it our 'carnal' or beastly nature when we find

ourselves behaving as such..but we are not the  beast though

 we have the mark of it,

 we may find ourselves acting like a satan..but we are not satan

 though he may have entered us .


if light be truth and love,joy and peace life

 darkness is lies and hate,sadness and strife death


  the kingdom of darkness is like a heavy veil of oppression

 that blocks out the light..truth,LOVE,peace,joy and life..it

 seeks to seperate us off from the Love of God, the Light of

 Christ..  it is why this world is so miserable..


  

 

Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2009, 01:07:07 AM »
As far as Jesus goes, the idea that Satan was in Christ's mind is something I do not submit to. Christ was spiritually minded. Remember Paul's words in Romans 8 "For you are not in the flesh if it so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you." Jesus had the mind of his Father when he was tempted/tried. His flesh was completely subdued to the Spirit, which He was given without measure. When the Spirit is given WITHOUT MEASURE, your mind is completely removed from the flesh and you are therefore in heaven as you stand on earth.

I think people misuse the word "tempted" as being that Christ FELT temptation to lust after a woman, or betray his Father. The word "tempt" is the same word for "tried." Christ was tried/tested in all ways like us, yet without sin. In all ways, Christ was submitted to God, and his mind not in the flesh like ours is. We have not been given the Spirit without measure, which is why our minds are continually renewed.

Consider Romans 5, where it says that God's love is revealed in that a righteous man (Christ) died for the ungodly. If satan was in Christ's mind, then Christ had to die for Himself as much as for us, which destroys the principle of Love revealed at the Cross.

Jesus Christ's mind was perfect and not in the flesh, because He was ONE with His father and undivided. Ok, so let's talk about the garden of Gethsemane, which always comes up to prove that Christ had a carnal mind opposed to God. That verse proves the opposite, that even if Jesus did not want to experience the coming cup, that in all ways his mind was submitted to God.

Do you know that the words being spoken by Jesus were the words of His Father through Him? His Father was causing him to speak those words, as admonitions to us, not to show a carnally minded Christ, which never existed. Christ had flesh, but the carnal nature is in the mind. Christ had the mind of God.


Offline sheila

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2009, 01:56:00 AM »
 satan tempted Jesus externally...if Jesus would have 'received"

 satans word and not rejected it..then satan would have

entered into him. sin entered in Adam and Eve same as satan

 entered..from another source the thought was presented

 [serpent].it's gotta be from without before it can enter in.

  Now the flesh is 'weak' in that it is 'corruptible' by these other

 spirits that are not of God


  Seth, as far as I can see..satan presented his words "to"

  Jesus mind...and He rejected and rebuked him..not letting

 the words take a toehold in anyway or enter into His heart

  just because someone else says something to us, doesn't

mean we have to beleive it or accept it or receive it into

ourselves as truth. In that scenario..it would be a trial from an

 outside source....but if sin be already in our flesh[which the

law showed forth] it is already entered into our flesh..,and can

be drawn out thru temptation,

 and every word that God speaks will arouse it to rebellion

against God's command [this legacy inherited thru Adam and

Eve]

  Sin was not in Jesus flesh nor satan..nor did it enter in..

  however He did bear our sin on a torture stake..and say

  Father,forgive them,they don't know what they do.


   when He laid His flesh down..no liar or theif took it from him

  but He laid it down in order to take it back up again...and

 guess what?that gave Him the legal right to lift up all fallen

 flesh[mankind]To plunder him who had plundered, to pillage

 him who had pillaged...to take back what the liar and theif had

 stolen...ADAM and Eve's birthright as Sons and Daughters of

 God.  In essence..He entered into death and bound the strong

man..and carried off his goods[mankind] That is the only

manner in which He came in the 'likeness' of sinful flesh.

   I look to the day when ALL REALIZE THE DEPTH AND

INTENSITY OF THE LOVE THAT IS IN THE FATHER AND SON,

 

Offline willieH

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2009, 02:06:18 AM »
willieH: Hi trettep!  :hithere:

I often get criticized for claiming that WE are Satan.  I don't mean literally that man is Satan but that our carnal nature IS indeed Satan.  I believe that "Satan" is a reference to that disobedience that is in us and has its source in us.  In other words I don't believe there is some OTHER ENTITY to blame the source of all evil on.  That source is born of man's heart.  I came to that conclusion when reading of the events in the Garden.  It became apparent to me that the Serpent was indeed Adam talking to Eve.    Let's consider a few things:

Gen 3:1  Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The word "subtil" is often translated as "prudent" or other more glowing terms in the King James version.  Remember, man is being made in God's image. 

Notice Eve's response to this question from the serpent:

Gen 3:2  And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

Now if Eve is using the plural here of "we" then this means that the Serpent would have knowledge of Adam if indeed the Serpent is not Adam or that Adam is in the company of Eve when this is taking place.

Now notice carefully this verse a bit later:

Gen 3:6  And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Notice the above.  It was important to include the words "with her".   Adam was with Eve when this was taking place.  But let's continue.

Gen 3:12  And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Notice how Adam blames Eve.  Now why would Adam respond the way he did.  Of all the things Adam could have said he said "The woman whom thou gaves to be with me".   Think about this for a moment.  Adam would find no helpmeet for him and so God makes Eve from his side and gives Eve to Adam.  So my belief is that Adam (the serpent) is having concerns about taking the forbidden fruit.  He knows that is will make him to know good and evil and he knows that Eve was given to him from God.  So if he gets Eve to take of it and give to him then it looks like he is not at fault.

Let's jump ahead to Jeremiah:

Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Above we learn about the heart of man.  Notice it says above ALL things.  Certaintly if Satan was a separate entity from man that he will still be part of "all things".  So this verse would be saying that man's heart is more wicked then Satan's heart if that was so.   It is logical to conclude that Satan is reference to the disobedience exhibition of man's heart and NOT some other entity that we can just blame for our own wrongdoing.  There are many more examples of references like the above pointing to man.  Consider that man is to have dominion in this world and yet we learn in the New Testament that Satan is the "god of this world".  So which is it?  Man or Satan? - my answer is that they are part of the same - man's evil heart.

Paul

Amen bro!  :goodpost:

Good stuff, Paul... Alas another which has this vision!  You have put this in a very convincing writing... Well done!

I also note that THEIR eyes were not OPEN until ADAM ate... Eve had a bite, and nothing is stated as happening from that bite... it was when ADAM ate, that BOTH their eyes were "opened"...

Gen 3:6-7 ...she took of the fruit thereof, and DID EAT  [but nothing happened] ...and gave also unto her husband WITH HER, and ["then"] HE DID EAT... and the EYES of THEM BOTH were ["then"] opened... and they knew they were naked...

It is also interesting to note the "CURSES" in Gen 3:14 (of the Serpent) and Gen 3:17 (of Adam) are alike:

Gen 3:14 -- and YHVH God said unto the "serpent", Because thou hast done this, thou are CURSED above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and DUST SHALT THOU EAT ALL THE DAYS OF THY LIFE...

Gen 3:17 -- And unto "Adam" he said, because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of they wife, and hast eaten of the tree of which I commanded thee saying thou shalt NOT eat of it, CURSED is the GROUND for thy sake, in sorrow SHALT THOU EAT OF IT [the dust/ground] ALL THE DAYS OF THY LIFE...

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2009, 02:13:53 AM »
Quote from: sheila
Seth, as far as I can see..satan presented his words "to"

  Jesus mind...and He rejected and rebuked him..not letting

 the words take a toehold in anyway or enter into His heart

  just because someone else says something to us, doesn't

mean we have to beleive it or accept it or receive it into

ourselves as truth. In that scenario..it would be a trial from an

 outside source....but if sin be already in our flesh[which the

law showed forth] it is already entered into our flesh..,and can

be drawn out thru temptation,

 :goodpost:


trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2009, 03:49:36 AM »
As far as Jesus goes, the idea that Satan was in Christ's mind is something I do not submit to. Christ was spiritually minded. Remember Paul's words in Romans 8 "For you are not in the flesh if it so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you." Jesus had the mind of his Father when he was tempted/tried. His flesh was completely subdued to the Spirit, which He was given without measure. When the Spirit is given WITHOUT MEASURE, your mind is completely removed from the flesh and you are therefore in heaven as you stand on earth.

I think people misuse the word "tempted" as being that Christ FELT temptation to lust after a woman, or betray his Father. The word "tempt" is the same word for "tried." Christ was tried/tested in all ways like us, yet without sin. In all ways, Christ was submitted to God, and his mind not in the flesh like ours is. We have not been given the Spirit without measure, which is why our minds are continually renewed.

Consider Romans 5, where it says that God's love is revealed in that a righteous man (Christ) died for the ungodly. If satan was in Christ's mind, then Christ had to die for Himself as much as for us, which destroys the principle of Love revealed at the Cross.

Jesus Christ's mind was perfect and not in the flesh, because He was ONE with His father and undivided. Ok, so let's talk about the garden of Gethsemane, which always comes up to prove that Christ had a carnal mind opposed to God. That verse proves the opposite, that even if Jesus did not want to experience the coming cup, that in all ways his mind was submitted to God.

Do you know that the words being spoken by Jesus were the words of His Father through Him? His Father was causing him to speak those words, as admonitions to us, not to show a carnally minded Christ, which never existed. Christ had flesh, but the carnal nature is in the mind. Christ had the mind of God.



You have to remember it isn't what goes into a man that defiles him, it is what comes out that defiles him.  If Jesus didn't have to overcome lust and evil things that come from the self then He didn't overcome as I have to overcome.  I think bad thoughts so if Jesus is a man like me then He did to.  The difference is that I sinned (I let evil come forth from me) whereas He didn't.

Paul

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2009, 03:54:12 AM »
willieH: Hi trettep!  :hithere:

I often get criticized for claiming that WE are Satan.  I don't mean literally that man is Satan but that our carnal nature IS indeed Satan.  I believe that "Satan" is a reference to that disobedience that is in us and has its source in us.  In other words I don't believe there is some OTHER ENTITY to blame the source of all evil on.  That source is born of man's heart.  I came to that conclusion when reading of the events in the Garden.  It became apparent to me that the Serpent was indeed Adam talking to Eve.    Let's consider a few things:

Gen 3:1  Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The word "subtil" is often translated as "prudent" or other more glowing terms in the King James version.  Remember, man is being made in God's image. 

Notice Eve's response to this question from the serpent:

Gen 3:2  And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

Now if Eve is using the plural here of "we" then this means that the Serpent would have knowledge of Adam if indeed the Serpent is not Adam or that Adam is in the company of Eve when this is taking place.

Now notice carefully this verse a bit later:

Gen 3:6  And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Notice the above.  It was important to include the words "with her".   Adam was with Eve when this was taking place.  But let's continue.

Gen 3:12  And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Notice how Adam blames Eve.  Now why would Adam respond the way he did.  Of all the things Adam could have said he said "The woman whom thou gaves to be with me".   Think about this for a moment.  Adam would find no helpmeet for him and so God makes Eve from his side and gives Eve to Adam.  So my belief is that Adam (the serpent) is having concerns about taking the forbidden fruit.  He knows that is will make him to know good and evil and he knows that Eve was given to him from God.  So if he gets Eve to take of it and give to him then it looks like he is not at fault.

Let's jump ahead to Jeremiah:

Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Above we learn about the heart of man.  Notice it says above ALL things.  Certaintly if Satan was a separate entity from man that he will still be part of "all things".  So this verse would be saying that man's heart is more wicked then Satan's heart if that was so.   It is logical to conclude that Satan is reference to the disobedience exhibition of man's heart and NOT some other entity that we can just blame for our own wrongdoing.  There are many more examples of references like the above pointing to man.  Consider that man is to have dominion in this world and yet we learn in the New Testament that Satan is the "god of this world".  So which is it?  Man or Satan? - my answer is that they are part of the same - man's evil heart.

Paul

Amen bro!  :goodpost:

Good stuff, Paul... Alas another which has this vision!  You have put this in a very convincing writing... Well done!

I also note that THEIR eyes were not OPEN until ADAM ate... Eve had a bite, and nothing is stated as happening from that bite... it was when ADAM ate, that BOTH their eyes were "opened"...

Gen 3:6-7 ...she took of the fruit thereof, and DID EAT  [but nothing happened] ...and gave also unto her husband WITH HER, and ["then"] HE DID EAT... and the EYES of THEM BOTH were ["then"] opened... and they knew they were naked...

It is also interesting to note the "CURSES" in Gen 3:14 (of the Serpent) and Gen 3:17 (of Adam) are alike:

Gen 3:14 -- and YHVH God said unto the "serpent", Because thou hast done this, thou are CURSED above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and DUST SHALT THOU EAT ALL THE DAYS OF THY LIFE...

Gen 3:17 -- And unto "Adam" he said, because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of they wife, and hast eaten of the tree of which I commanded thee saying thou shalt NOT eat of it, CURSED is the GROUND for thy sake, in sorrow SHALT THOU EAT OF IT [the dust/ground] ALL THE DAYS OF THY LIFE...

...willieH  :cloud9:

GREAT STUFF indeed that you are showing also.  I had not considered the same curses before for Adam and the Serpent. 

Paul

Offline willieH

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2009, 04:10:13 AM »
willieH: Hi my dear brother Seth!  :hithere:

A few comments... that you might consider bro...

Carefully stated, and no offense intended, just food for thought:

As far as Jesus goes, the idea that Satan was in Christ's mind is something I do not submit to. Christ was spiritually minded. Remember Paul's words in Romans 8 "For you are not in the flesh if it so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you." Jesus had the mind of his Father when he was tempted/tried. His flesh was completely subdued to the Spirit, which He was given without measure. When the Spirit is given WITHOUT MEASURE, your mind is completely removed from the flesh and you are therefore in heaven as you stand on earth.

The presence of YHVH (divinity/Godhead), was indeed dwelling IN Him making Him thereby the SON of GOD, ...but was not ALL that He was... He was also the SON of MAN...  which means that the presence of MAN was IN Him as well...

JESUS was a 2 fold being... He was SON of GOD, for YHVH was His Father, so 100% of Him was DIVINE because of it... but,

JESUS was the SON of MAN as Mary was His Mother, so 100% of Him was human (MAN) because of this, as well...


I think people misuse the word "tempted" as being that Christ FELT temptation to lust after a woman, or betray his Father. The word "tempt" is the same word for "tried." Christ was tried/tested in all ways like us, yet without sin.

If He is so tempted (or "tried/tested" as you describe it)... AS are we... then He had to experience the tuggings of TEMPTATION in the very SAME WAYS that we DO...

He could NOT be "tempted/tried/tested" by the potential LUST of a woman, unless indeed, it came upon Him... (or any other temptation which presents itself to man/woman)

TEMPTATION of itself is NOT SIN... It is the PROPOSAL of SINFUL behavior... and JESUS OVERCAME the TEMPTATION to give in to SINFUL behavior... which is WHY He is noted as an OVERCOMER...

If indeed it was NOT POSSIBLE for Him to SIN... then to state Him as "overcoming" TEMPTATION, is a sham...

Where CHRIST was aligned with GOD and ONE with Him, was in His Heart and in His GENETICS... Aside from CHRIST, ADAM and Eve... the rest of us are born of SINFUL parents... Mother AND Father...

In all ways, Christ was submitted to God, and his mind not in the flesh like ours is. We have not been given the Spirit without measure, which is why our minds are continually renewed.

I agree and disagree with this bro... His mind had to have been ABLE to succumb to SIN or He did not OVERCOME the TEMPTATION to do it...

Here's the deal... If GOD made temptation able to penetrate everything but STEEL and CHRIST was STEEL ENCASED... then How could it be said He was TEMPTED?  And how can it be said that He OVERCAME something that could NOT POSSIBLY penetrate Him?  It could be said that He did not submit to Temptation, but it could not be said that He OVERCAME Temptation unless it was possible that IT could have OVERCAME Him...

Consider Romans 5, where it says that God's love is revealed in that a righteous man (Christ) died for the ungodly. If satan was in Christ's mind, then Christ had to die for Himself as much as for us, which destroys the principle of Love revealed at the Cross.

I think this is amiss... CHRIST did not DIE to save men from temptation, ...he died for those who have FALLEN INTO IT... And He did so, by ENDURING TEMPTATION and SHUNNING its proposals...  The PROPOSALS had to enter His mind, or He could not have ENDURED them...

EXAMPLE:  If I am an ALCOHOLIC and PRESENTLY there is NO ALCOHOL to drink, am I still PRESENTLY "TEMPTED" by it to drink IT even though there is NONE PRESENT? 

CHRIST was TEMPTED, but SIN is only BORN when one INDULGES in the TEMPTATION which is OFFERED:

James 1:15 -- THEN, when LUST  HAS CONCIEVED, it bringeth forth SIN and SIN when it is finished bringeth forth death...

LUST (or TEMPTATION) must be ENGAGED before LUST (desire)  CONCIEVES (births) SIN... 

CHRIST did not ENGAGE the TEMPTATION presented Him, as do we... He ABSTAINED and OVERCAME its urging...

Jesus Christ's mind was perfect and not in the flesh, because He was ONE with His father and undivided. Ok, so let's talk about the garden of Gethsemane, which always comes up to prove that Christ had a carnal mind opposed to God. That verse proves the opposite, that even if Jesus did not want to experience the coming cup, that in all ways his mind was submitted to God.

I see it as MAN wishing to AVOID DEATH... CHRIST was still a MAN... and MEN will always make an effort to AVOID DEATH...

Do you know that the words being spoken by Jesus were the words of His Father through Him? His Father was causing him to speak those words, as admonitions to us, not to show a carnally minded Christ, which never existed. Christ had flesh, but the carnal nature is in the mind. Christ had the mind of God.

You are welcome dear brother to continue believing this, however... If CHRIST indeed did not have the CARNAL urgings which WE DO... then He "OVERCAME" nothing...

The CARNAL nature is more than just the "mind" and its processings...

It is the LUST of the EYE (as It "TEMPTS"), and the LUST of the FLESH (as IT "TEMPTS") and the PRIDE of LIFE (as IT "TEMPTS") -- 1 John 2:16

If you examine His "wilderness Temptation", all THREE of these were contained IN that presentation:

#1 -- Lust of the flesh
#2 -- Lust of the Eye
#3 -- Pride of Life

Matt 4:3-10 

verse 3 -- and when the tempter came to him he said (#1) "if Thou be the Son of God, command these stones to be made bread

verse 5-6 -- then the devil taketh Him up into the holy city, and setteth Him on a pinnacle of the temple, ...and saith unto Him, (#3) If Thou be the Son of God cast Thyself down for it is written He shall give His angels charge concerning Thee and in their hands they shall bear Thee up, lest Thou dash Thy foot against a stone

verse 8-9 -- again the devil taketh Him up inot an exceeding high mountain and (#2) SHOWETH Him ALL the Kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them... and saith unto Him, all these things will I give Thee if Thou wilt fall down and worship me...

All these things combined (#1, #2 & #3) are within the experience of the CARNAL NATURE... and CHRIST had to have overcome them ALL via EXPERIENCING being TEMPTED OF EACH of THEM (as are WE tempted of them), in order to call Him an OVERCOMER OF THEM ALL...

(1) In the presentation to the FLESH to change the rocks into food, JESUS had to overcome the temptation to satisfy His body...

(2) in the presentation to the EYE, in seeing them... JESUS had to overcome the temptation of the GLORY of all the kingdoms of the world...

(3)  and in presentation to His LIFE, knowing the power of YHVH...JESUS had to overcome the temptation of (PRIDE of) LIFE to overcome and defer the temptation of God's saving measures to preserve His life...

Peace bro... :Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 04:14:04 AM by willieH »

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2009, 04:25:50 AM »
willieH: Hi my dear brother Seth!  :hithere:

A few comments... that you might consider bro...

Carefully stated, and no offense intended, just food for thought:

As far as Jesus goes, the idea that Satan was in Christ's mind is something I do not submit to. Christ was spiritually minded. Remember Paul's words in Romans 8 "For you are not in the flesh if it so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you." Jesus had the mind of his Father when he was tempted/tried. His flesh was completely subdued to the Spirit, which He was given without measure. When the Spirit is given WITHOUT MEASURE, your mind is completely removed from the flesh and you are therefore in heaven as you stand on earth.

The presence of YHVH (divinity/Godhead), was indeed dwelling IN Him making Him thereby the SON of GOD, ...but was not ALL that He was... He was also the SON of MAN...  which means that the presence of MAN was IN Him as well...

JESUS was a 2 fold being... He was SON of GOD, for YHVH was His Father, so 100% of Him was DIVINE because of it... but,

JESUS was the SON of MAN as Mary was His Mother, so 100% of Him was human (MAN) because of this, as well...


I think people misuse the word "tempted" as being that Christ FELT temptation to lust after a woman, or betray his Father. The word "tempt" is the same word for "tried." Christ was tried/tested in all ways like us, yet without sin.

If He is so tempted (or "tried/tested" as you describe it)... AS are we... then He had to experience the tuggings of TEMPTATION in the very SAME WAYS that we DO...

He could NOT be "tempted/tried/tested" by the potential LUST of a woman, unless indeed, it came upon Him... (or any other temptation which presents itself to man/woman)

TEMPTATION of itself is NOT SIN... It is the PROPOSAL of SINFUL behavior... and JESUS OVERCAME the TEMPTATION to give in to SINFUL behavior... which is WHY He is noted as an OVERCOMER...

If indeed it was NOT POSSIBLE for Him to SIN... then to state Him as "overcoming" TEMPTATION, is a sham...

Where CHRIST was aligned with GOD and ONE with Him, was in His Heart and in His GENETICS... Aside from CHRIST, ADAM and Eve... the rest of us are born of SINFUL parents... Mother AND Father...

In all ways, Christ was submitted to God, and his mind not in the flesh like ours is. We have not been given the Spirit without measure, which is why our minds are continually renewed.

I agree and disagree with this bro... His mind had to have been ABLE to succumb to SIN or He did not OVERCOME the TEMPTATION to do it...

Here's the deal... If GOD made temptation able to penetrate everything but STEEL and CHRIST was STEEL ENCASED... then How could it be said He was TEMPTED?  And how can it be said that He OVERCAME something that could NOT POSSIBLY penetrate Him?  It could be said that He did not submit to Temptation, but it could not be said that He OVERCAME Temptation unless it was possible that IT could have OVERCAME Him...

Consider Romans 5, where it says that God's love is revealed in that a righteous man (Christ) died for the ungodly. If satan was in Christ's mind, then Christ had to die for Himself as much as for us, which destroys the principle of Love revealed at the Cross.

I think this is amiss... CHRIST did not DIE to save men from temptation, ...he died for those who have FALLEN INTO IT... And He did so, by ENDURING TEMPTATION and SHUNNING its proposals...  The PROPOSALS had to enter His mind, or He could not have ENDURED them...

EXAMPLE:  If I am an ALCOHOLIC and PRESENTLY there is NO ALCOHOL to drink, am I still PRESENTLY "TEMPTED" by it to drink IT even though there is NONE PRESENT? 

CHRIST was TEMPTED, but SIN is only BORN when one INDULGES in the TEMPTATION which is OFFERED:

James 1:15 -- THEN, when LUST  HAS CONCIEVED, it bringeth forth SIN and SIN when it is finished bringeth forth death...

LUST (or TEMPTATION) must be ENGAGED before LUST (desire)  CONCIEVES (births) SIN... 

CHRIST did not ENGAGE the TEMPTATION presented Him, as do we... He ABSTAINED and OVERCAME its urging...

Jesus Christ's mind was perfect and not in the flesh, because He was ONE with His father and undivided. Ok, so let's talk about the garden of Gethsemane, which always comes up to prove that Christ had a carnal mind opposed to God. That verse proves the opposite, that even if Jesus did not want to experience the coming cup, that in all ways his mind was submitted to God.

I see it as MAN wishing to AVOID DEATH... CHRIST was still a MAN... and MEN will always make an effort to AVOID DEATH...

Do you know that the words being spoken by Jesus were the words of His Father through Him? His Father was causing him to speak those words, as admonitions to us, not to show a carnally minded Christ, which never existed. Christ had flesh, but the carnal nature is in the mind. Christ had the mind of God.

You are welcome dear brother to continue believing this, however... If CHRIST indeed did not have the CARNAL urgings which WE DO... then He "OVERCAME" nothing...

The CARNAL nature is more than just the "mind" and its processings...

It is the LUST of the EYE (as It "TEMPTS"), and the LUST of the FLESH (as IT "TEMPTS") and the PRIDE of LIFE (as IT "TEMPTS") -- 1 John 2:16

If you examine His "wilderness Temptation", all THREE of these were contained IN that presentation:

#1 -- Lust of the flesh
#2 -- Lust of the Eye
#3 -- Pride of Life

Matt 4:3-10 

verse 3 -- and when the tempter came to him he said (#1) "if Thou be the Son of God, command these stones to be made bread

verse 5-6 -- then the devil taketh Him up into the holy city, and setteth Him on a pinnacle of the temple, ...and saith unto Him, (#3) If Thou be the Son of God cast Thyself down for it is written He shall give His angels charge concerning Thee and in their hands they shall bear Thee up, lest Thou dash Thy foot against a stone

verse 8-9 -- again the devil taketh Him up inot an exceeding high mountain and (#2) SHOWETH Him ALL the Kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them... and saith unto Him, all these things will I give Thee if Thou wilt fall down and worship me...

All these things combined (#1, #2 & #3) are within the experience of the CARNAL NATURE... and CHRIST had to have overcome them ALL via EXPERIENCING being TEMPTED OF EACH of THEM (as are WE tempted of them), in order to call Him an OVERCOMER OF THEM ALL...

(1) In the presentation to the FLESH to change the rocks into food, JESUS had to overcome the temptation to satisfy His body...

(2) in the presentation to the EYE, in seeing them... JESUS had to overcome the temptation of the GLORY of all the kingdoms of the world...

(3)  and in presentation to His LIFE, knowing the power of YHVH...JESUS had to overcome the temptation of (PRIDE of) LIFE to overcome and defer the temptation of God's saving measures to preserve His life...

Peace bro... :Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

willieH, I think were in the same mind here.  I see it that way also.

Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

If Jesus is a man then he had lusts as we do.  But overcame those to not be drawn away with them.  I said earlier in the thread why I think this is important to understand because if we think Jesus is not capable of this then we deny that Jesus came as a man (as we are).  And that is said to be the spirit of anti-christ.

1Jn 4:3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

For our flesh has these urgings.  That is what flesh does.  It has urges and you make the wonderful point that if Jesus overcame then what did He overcome if not His own urges. 

Great stuff. 

Paul

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2009, 04:30:48 AM »
40 is an interesting number in the Word.

Offline Pierac

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2009, 05:38:42 AM »
Yes, I agree that Jesus was a man.  But what were discussing here is whether Satan is a component of man - more specifically the exhibition of man's disobedient nature.  If so, then when Satan was tempting Jesus then it would mean that the thoughts of disobedience originated in Jesus' mind and thus not some external entity.

Paul

So you suggesting Jesus when He was being tempted, by Satan it was His (Jesus') own carnal nature that started to offer twisted versions of the Scriptures for Him to perform?

Mat 4:5  Then the devil *took Him into the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple,  :6  and *said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for
it is written, 'HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU'; and 'ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT
AGAINST A STONE.'"

So Jesus' human nature asked Jesus to jump off the pinnacle? And He replyed to himself…
Mat 4:7  Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, 'YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.'"

Strange that no where in Scripture does human nature come up to a person and speak, and hold an extended conversation. And this is not how my own human nature works within me from my own personal experience. However, if you want to believe Jesus invited himself to fall down before himself and worship himself that's cool with me.  (Mat 4:9  and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.")

Like I said, you will not suffer either way, and I have not found a single person who knows all the truths my self included.  We only know in part. As for my part, Satan is a created being, (not a fallen Angel)  a tool used for God's plan of the Ages.  It matters not who's correct, your status in the resurrection has already been established.


Paul


trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2009, 06:33:22 AM »
So you suggesting Jesus when He was being tempted, by Satan it was His (Jesus') own carnal nature that started to offer twisted versions of the Scriptures for Him to perform?

I believe it was His own carnal nature that offered the disobedient thoughts. 

Quote
Mat 4:5  Then the devil *took Him into the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple,  :6  and *said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for
it is written, 'HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU'; and 'ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT
AGAINST A STONE.'"

So Jesus' human nature asked Jesus to jump off the pinnacle? And He replyed to himself…
Mat 4:7  Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, 'YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.'"

Yes, I believe Jesus carnal nature was desiring Him to push Himself and take advantage of the Power He has as Son of God.

Quote
Strange that no where in Scripture does human nature come up to a person and speak, and hold an extended conversation. And this is not how my own human nature works within me from my own personal experience. However, if you want to believe Jesus invited himself to fall down before himself and worship himself that's cool with me.  (Mat 4:9  and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.")

I believe it does all over the place.  I believe you just quoted some of those.

Quote
Like I said, you will not suffer either way, and I have not found a single person who knows all the truths my self included.  We only know in part. As for my part, Satan is a created being, (not a fallen Angel)  a tool used for God's plan of the Ages.  It matters not who's correct, your status in the resurrection has already been established.


Paul



Paul, if you believe Satan is the serpent and not man's disobedient nature then you will have to reconcile how Satan can be the most subtl of all creatures made (Gen 3:1) and yet man must still be the most deceitful and wicked (Jer 17:9).  That will leave you to reconcile Genesis 3:1 with Jeremiah 17:9.  How can BOTH be the most deceitful or wicked?

Paul

Offline Pierac

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2009, 07:22:21 AM »
Paul, if you believe Satan is the serpent and not man's disobedient nature then you will have to reconcile how Satan can be the most subtl of all creatures made (Gen 3:1) and yet man must still be the most deceitful and wicked (Jer 17:9).  That will leave you to reconcile Genesis 3:1 with Jeremiah 17:9.  How can BOTH be the most deceitful or wicked?

Paul

Your kidding? Right?

Gen 3:1  The Temptation and the Fall

Now1 the serpent 2 was more shrewd 3 than any of the wild animals 4 that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Is it really true that5God 6 said, 'You must not eat from any tree of the orchard'?"7   

3 tn The Hebrew word עָרוּם ('arum) basically means "clever." This idea then polarizes into the nuances "cunning" (in a negative sense, see Job_5:12;
Job_15:5), and "prudent" in a positive sense (Pro_12:16; Pro_12:23; Pro_13:16; Pro_14:8; Pro_14:15; Pro_14:18; Pro_22:3; Pro_27:12). This same polarization of
meaning can be detected in related words derived from the same root (see Exo_21:14; Jos_  "It is incurable." For the word "deceitful" compare the usage of the  verb in Gen_27:36 and a related noun in 2Ki_10:19. For the adjective "incurable" compare the  usage in Jer_15:18. It is most commonly used with reference to wounds or of  pain. In Jer_17:16 it is used metaphorically for a "woeful day" (i.e., day of irreparable devastation).


Gen 3:1 

Subtil
H6175
ערוּם
‛ârûm
aw-room'
Passive participle of H6191; cunning (usually in a bad sense): - crafty, prudent, subtil.


Next Verse under discussion…


Jer 17:9  The human mind is more deceitful than anything else. It is incurably bad. 17  Who can understand it?

17  tn  Or "incurably deceitful"; Heb   "It is incurable." For the word "deceitful" compare the usage of the  verb in Gen_27:36 and a related noun in 2Ki_10:19. For the adjective "incurable" compare the  usage in Jer_15:18. It is most commonly used with reference to wounds or of  pain. In Jer_17:16 it is used metaphorically for a "woeful day" (i.e., day of irreparable devastation).

 
Jer 17:9
 deceitful
H6121
עקב
‛âqôb
aw-kobe'
From H6117; in the original sense, a knoll (as swelling up); in the denominative sense (transitively) fraudulent or (intransitively) tracked: -
crooked, deceitful, polluted.

The real question is how you can connect the two verses to make Satan into billions of beings through out the ages?

Hey, check out the computer bible program e-sword! (It's free too)

Paul



Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2009, 07:37:41 AM »
Quote from: Sheila
It is not us or of God,but something of a different nature

  it's knowledge does not change it's nature..it is not of love

  we need not fear it..just be aware. Jesus was aware and not

 afraid.

It really struck me--the way you put this.

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2009, 07:47:14 AM »
Thanks Paul, I already have E-Sword - its good stuff. I recommend it myself also.  As for the connection, they are connected the way I see it.   The TILT of "cunning" verses "prudent" is left to the translators discrection.  For example, a Greek Septuagint translation of the Greek word used there (G5429) actually is translated as "most skilled" (See Apostlic Polygot).  

Paul



Offline willieH

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2009, 08:16:08 AM »
willieH: Hi brother Paul... Howahya? :hithere:

I'm not Paul (trettep)... but I would like to answer your post...

Yes, I agree that Jesus was a man.  But what were discussing here is whether Satan is a component of man - more specifically the exhibition of man's disobedient nature.  If so, then when Satan was tempting Jesus then it would mean that the thoughts of disobedience originated in Jesus' mind and thus not some external entity.

Paul

So you suggesting Jesus when He was being tempted, by Satan it was His (Jesus') own carnal nature that started to offer twisted versions of the Scriptures for Him to perform?

That is how the "carnal nature" works in men, Paul...  Did a "horn-headed guy in a red suit, carrying a pitchfork" come up to YOU to tempt you with your FIRST SIN? ...and after that initial sin, ...did "satan" subsequently, present every other temptation in your life since then?  :dunno:

Being made in the IMAGE of GOD... we DO talk to ourselves often... and we DO answer ourselves as well... so why should it not be so with GOD and with JESUS?

We are REFLECTIONS of them... and outside of FALLING to temptation and SIN... we reflect the invisible GOD and HIS WORD, in ALL WAYS... which can easily include "thinking or talking to ourselves"...

JESUS was TEMPTED ...AS... are we:  Heb 4:15 -- So unless this is your experience to have "satan" appear each time and "do the tempting", (it certainly IS NOT mine)... then it was likely not for JESUS either!

Mat 4:5  Then the devil *took Him into the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple,  :6  and *said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for
it is written, 'HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU'; and 'ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT
AGAINST A STONE.'"

So Jesus' human nature asked Jesus to jump off the pinnacle? And He replyed to himself…

Hmmm... when you come up to the stop light in your car (with no one with you), and aloud or silently say:  "Shall I turn left or right?"  Who are you talking to?  And then, answer either aloud or silently -- "I think I'll turn right" -- who are you answering?

JESUS dealt with "temptation" the very same way ALL MEN do... action or inaction... (although He was successful in ALL His dealings with it, and we are not --  :mblush:)

Strange that no where in Scripture does human nature come up to a person and speak, and hold an extended conversation. And this is not how my own human nature works within me from my own personal experience. However, if you want to believe Jesus invited himself to fall down before himself and worship himself that's cool with me.

(Mat 4:9  and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.")

Cute sarcasm bud...  :laughing7:  ...but it really surprises me that you should answer this in this fashion...

As far as referencing JESUS temptation in the wilderness as an ..."EXTENDED conversation"...well, ...this short segment of Scripture (Matt 4:1-11) with THREE brief and "to the point" questions and answers, can hardly be termed an "EXTENDED conversation"  :dontknow:

If you are submitting to a temptation, then it is the temptation you worship... You are slave or servant to that which you submit yourself... 

And for that matter... when a "knee" is bowed, it is not speaking of a part of your anatomy... It is speaking of the "knee" or ALLEGIANCE of your heart...

I am quite surprised that you of all people here, take these verses as a "Literal context" as opposed to SPIRITUAL premises being presented and responded to, Spiritually...  :dontknow:

Like I said, you will not suffer either way, and I have not found a single person who knows all the truths my self included.  We only know in part. As for my part, Satan is a created being, (not a fallen Angel)  a tool used for God's plan of the Ages.  It matters not who's correct, your status in the resurrection has already been established.

This is an UnBiblical belief bro... ("satan" as a "created being")

Where is the Scripture which notes the CREATION of "satan"?

There is no Scriptural account for the "creation" of any other angel either for that matter (at least I haven't found any)... I would appreciate it you know any that you could provide them...

I do not believe ANGELS were ever created... they have always BEEN, as have we... 

YHVH is ALL in ALL... and NEVER changes... Mal 3:6 -- Heb 13:8 --  He NEVER "BECOMES" anything He is NOT already... for that would constitute a CHANGE in entities (God and His WORD) that are ALREADY PERFECT... :yes:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline willieH

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2009, 08:21:27 AM »
willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

The real question is how you can connect the two verses to make Satan into billions of beings through out the ages?

Forget "billions of beings" --- where does it ever indicate in SCRIPTURE that "satan" is even ONE BEING?  :dontknow:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2009, 10:48:42 AM »
Hi WillieH, I know you don't mean offense. No worries.  :HeartThrob:

Quote
The presence of YHVH (divinity/Godhead), was indeed dwelling IN Him making Him thereby the SON of GOD, ...but was not ALL that He was... He was also the SON of MAN...  which means that the presence of MAN was IN Him as well...

JESUS was a 2 fold being... He was SON of GOD, for YHVH was His Father, so 100% of Him was DIVINE because of it... but,

JESUS was the SON of MAN as Mary was His Mother, so 100% of Him was human (MAN) because of this, as well...

Yes, Jesus was the Son of Man and he was 100% human, but 0% carnally minded. Why? Because he had 100% of the Spirit.

Romans 8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Luke 3
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am WELL pleased.


Quote
If He is so tempted (or "tried/tested" as you describe it)... AS are we... then He had to experience the tuggings of TEMPTATION in the very SAME WAYS that we DO...

That's not actually true Willie. Someone can be tried without feeling temptation. John says that if any man says he is without sin, he deceives himself and the truth is not in him. We have sin. Jesus was tested in all points, YET (this is where the exception comes in ) WITHOUT sin. We are tested WITH sin, he was tested in the same points we are WITHOUT (the word there is APART FROM) sin. So in whatever way Christ was tested like us, it was apart from sin, which is much unlike our own carnal nature.

Quote
He could NOT be "tempted/tried/tested" by the potential LUST of a woman, unless indeed, it came upon Him... (or any other temptation which presents itself to man/woman)

Sure he could. You could place a woman before him to TEST, TO TRY, or TO TEMPT him, and while I might feel lust, he would not. What is the difference between Christ and me? I have sin, and He was without sin. The action of testing someone with an object of desire, does not necessitate the feeling of lust.

Quote
If indeed it was NOT POSSIBLE for Him to SIN... then to state Him as "overcoming" TEMPTATION, is a sham...
It's not a sham when you consider that Jesus overcame the world.

1 John 1
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

John 16
31 Jesus answered them, "Do you now believe?
32 Behold, the hour is coming, indeed it has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home, and will leave me alone. Yet I am not alone, for the Father is with me.
33 I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world."


Quote
I agree and disagree with this bro... His mind had to have been ABLE to succumb to SIN or He did not OVERCOME the TEMPTATION to do it...

Jesus overcame the world. It doesn't say he overcame the feeling of lust.

Quote
Here's the deal... If GOD made temptation able to penetrate everything but STEEL and CHRIST was STEEL ENCASED... then How could it be said He was TEMPTED? 

Because there is a fundamental difference between the action of testing, and the result of feeling tempted.


Quote
I think this is amiss... CHRIST did not DIE to save men from temptation, ...he died for those who have FALLEN INTO IT... And He did so, by ENDURING TEMPTATION and SHUNNING its proposals...  The PROPOSALS had to enter His mind, or He could not have ENDURED them...

EXAMPLE:  If I am an ALCOHOLIC and PRESENTLY there is NO ALCOHOL to drink, am I still PRESENTLY "TEMPTED" by it to drink IT even though there is NONE PRESENT? 

CHRIST was TEMPTED, but SIN is only BORN when one INDULGES in the TEMPTATION which is OFFERED:

James 1:15 -- THEN, when LUST  HAS CONCIEVED, it bringeth forth SIN and SIN when it is finished bringeth forth death...

LUST (or TEMPTATION) must be ENGAGED before LUST (desire)  CONCIEVES (births) SIN... 

CHRIST did not ENGAGE the TEMPTATION presented Him, as do we... He ABSTAINED and OVERCAME its urging...

WillieH, I am not sure how that addresses what I said about Romans 5.

Romans 5
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person--though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die--
8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.


God commended his love for us in that a righteous, Godly man died for the ungodly. That Christ was without sin reveals his love that he died for those who were not without sin. Yes, lust must be engaged before lust conceives an outward sinful act which is what John is talking about. However:

Matt 5
27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


Do you remember when Paul said that we struggle with sin IN the flesh? That passage from John does not simply define all sin as being outward working, otherwise you would need to throw out the passages that show that we have sin IN the flesh BEFORE it is worked outwardly. The lust that is concieved in the heart is still sin (adultery in the heart), however, it when the inward sin is conceived it brings forth sin outwardly. To be carnally minded is death, and to work sin brings for the wages of death. While Christ was human, he, while in the flesh retained the mind of the Spirit, not the carnal mind which is death. Christ died to free people from the carnal mind, so he did not die for himself, thereby revealing the love if God in a completely selfless act.


Quote
I see it as MAN wishing to AVOID DEATH... CHRIST was still a MAN... and MEN will always make an effort to AVOID DEATH...

What I see in it is that God was speaking the words of Christ, and that Christ did nothing of himself including his experience at the Garden. God caused Christ to say those words to reveal Christ's complete submission and total lack of a carnal mind, in that, though he felt fear, he did not oppose the righteousness of God nor his will.


Quote
You are welcome dear brother to continue believing this, however... If CHRIST indeed did not have the CARNAL urgings which WE DO... then He "OVERCAME" nothing...

Yes he did. He overcame the world who were his enemies as he died for them. By commending love to the world, as the world knew him not, he overcame the world by His spirit.


Quote
The CARNAL nature is more than just the "mind" and its processings...

It is the LUST of the EYE (as It "TEMPTS"), and the LUST of the FLESH (as IT "TEMPTS") and the PRIDE of LIFE (as IT "TEMPTS") -- 1 John 2:16

Every point you described, "of the eye" "of the flesh" "of life" occurs in the mind. The eye does not sin of itself, until the mind concieves what the eye provides and it results in lust within the mind. Have you ever seen someone knocked unconscious? Do they feel any lust of the flesh even though the flesh is alive? Of course not, because THEIR MINDS are not active. The carnal nature is ALL in the mind which is why the solution to the carnal nature is "the renewing of the mind."

Quote
If you examine His "wilderness Temptation", all THREE of these were contained IN that presentation:

#1 -- Lust of the flesh
#2 -- Lust of the Eye
#3 -- Pride of Life

Matt 4:3-10 

verse 3 -- and when the tempter came to him he said (#1) "if Thou be the Son of God, command these stones to be made bread

verse 5-6 -- then the devil taketh Him up into the holy city, and setteth Him on a pinnacle of the temple, ...and saith unto Him, (#3) If Thou be the Son of God cast Thyself down for it is written He shall give His angels charge concerning Thee and in their hands they shall bear Thee up, lest Thou dash Thy foot against a stone

verse 8-9 -- again the devil taketh Him up inot an exceeding high mountain and (#2) SHOWETH Him ALL the Kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them... and saith unto Him, all these things will I give Thee if Thou wilt fall down and worship me...

All these things combined (#1, #2 & #3) are within the experience of the CARNAL NATURE... and CHRIST had to have overcome them ALL via EXPERIENCING being TEMPTED OF EACH of THEM (as are WE tempted of them), in order to call Him an OVERCOMER OF THEM ALL...

(1) In the presentation to the FLESH to change the rocks into food, JESUS had to overcome the temptation to satisfy His body...

(2) in the presentation to the EYE, in seeing them... JESUS had to overcome the temptation of the GLORY of all the kingdoms of the world...

(3)  and in presentation to His LIFE, knowing the power of YHVH...JESUS had to overcome the temptation of (PRIDE of) LIFE to overcome and defer the temptation of God's saving measures to preserve His life...

Yes Jesus had to overcome the testing of Satan. Satan TESTED Jesus with those things, and Jesus revealed why God was WELL pleased with him. WillieH, again, one can be tested without feeling temptation. Satan tried Jesus, no doubt, but there is no suggestion in those passages that Jesus struggled with feelings. Rather the opposite, Jesus revealed that he was "without sin" when he was tested to appeal to the Word. Christ's testing was not for himself, but as admonition to us. God was already well pleased with Christ, yet He showed the world Christ's perfection by showing how someone can be tested without a carnal mind and how the spiritually minded man responds.

The lamb of God: without spot or blemish to be presented as an offering for the ungodly.

Peace to you too bro. Love you.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 11:28:59 AM by Seth »

Offline sheila

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2009, 03:41:21 PM »
another consideration...

   He is from above...the image of His Father,,who stated..my

thoughts are not your thoughts....His thoughts are higher

....the mind of Christ....


   another thing.. in regard to the prince of this world cometh

   .he has nothing in me

   He was hated because He was not of this world...what is this

 world of which there was nothing in Him? showy display of ones

 means of life[lust of eyes] 1 John 2;16 for everything in the

 world- the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the

boasting of what he has and does- comes not from the

 Father,but from the world.

  there is a wisdom that is of the world..and a wisdom from

 above.


  beastly/carnal wisdom is from below[tokogae] wisdom from

 above is tree of life. This is why we must be born again of the

 spirit. Those who are born of the spirit[wisdom from above]

 do not sin,neither can they[what?]wasn't Jesus born of the

 spirit? How was He unable to sin then?


  what's the deal with being led into the wilderness to be

 tempted of the devil?What purpose?  why did He specifically

 instruct us to pray..LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION? Isn't that

 the will of the Father and the Holy spirit? No, God does not

tempt with evil

 ...and Jesus said 'tempt not God" in response to

 the temptor in the wilderness.

  If God does not tempt nor try us with

 evil, who does? the TEMPTER does.


  why did the Holyspirit lead him into the wilderness to let the

 devil have a go at him? It was to notify the temptor that the

 legal heir was there, Shiloh had come, He who had the legal

 right  and dominion was there. So what did the evil servant

[satan] do?He crucified His flesh...but MORE THAN FLESH WAS

 THERE.It was in the likeness of sinful flesh,but Satan was

unable to overcome it..gain dominion over him.

   So he plotted to kill him anyway...and found out that death

could not hold him or gain dominion over him in any way,either.

   God laughed. :laughing7:...He is deaths plague :thumbsup:

  the old covenant was over,gone the tokogae..new

covenant..tree of life. Sin's law reigning in death through the

 lower wisdom[tokogae]old covenant was finished and set aside.

  TOL/grace/wisdom from above had come[a greater than

 Solomon] :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance:

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2009, 04:05:58 PM »
wow, Sheila! :bgdance:

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2009, 05:50:12 PM »
willieH: Hi brother Paul... Howahya? :hithere:

I'm not Paul (trettep)... but I would like to answer your post...

Yes, I agree that Jesus was a man.  But what were discussing here is whether Satan is a component of man - more specifically the exhibition of man's disobedient nature.  If so, then when Satan was tempting Jesus then it would mean that the thoughts of disobedience originated in Jesus' mind and thus not some external entity.

Paul

So you suggesting Jesus when He was being tempted, by Satan it was His (Jesus') own carnal nature that started to offer twisted versions of the Scriptures for Him to perform?

That is how the "carnal nature" works in men, Paul...  Did a "horn-headed guy in a red suit, carrying a pitchfork" come up to YOU to tempt you with your FIRST SIN? ...and after that initial sin, ...did "satan" subsequently, present every other temptation in your life since then?  :dunno:

Being made in the IMAGE of GOD... we DO talk to ourselves often... and we DO answer ourselves as well... so why should it not be so with GOD and with JESUS?

We are REFLECTIONS of them... and outside of FALLING to temptation and SIN... we reflect the invisible GOD and HIS WORD, in ALL WAYS... which can easily include "thinking or talking to ourselves"...

JESUS was TEMPTED ...AS... are we:  Heb 4:15 -- So unless this is your experience to have "satan" appear each time and "do the tempting", (it certainly IS NOT mine)... then it was likely not for JESUS either!

Mat 4:5  Then the devil *took Him into the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple,  :6  and *said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for
it is written, 'HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU'; and 'ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT
AGAINST A STONE.'"

So Jesus' human nature asked Jesus to jump off the pinnacle? And He replyed to himself…

Hmmm... when you come up to the stop light in your car (with no one with you), and aloud or silently say:  "Shall I turn left or right?"  Who are you talking to?  And then, answer either aloud or silently -- "I think I'll turn right" -- who are you answering?

JESUS dealt with "temptation" the very same way ALL MEN do... action or inaction... (although He was successful in ALL His dealings with it, and we are not --  :mblush:)

Strange that no where in Scripture does human nature come up to a person and speak, and hold an extended conversation. And this is not how my own human nature works within me from my own personal experience. However, if you want to believe Jesus invited himself to fall down before himself and worship himself that's cool with me.

(Mat 4:9  and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.")

Cute sarcasm bud...  :laughing7:  ...but it really surprises me that you should answer this in this fashion...

As far as referencing JESUS temptation in the wilderness as an ..."EXTENDED conversation"...well, ...this short segment of Scripture (Matt 4:1-11) with THREE brief and "to the point" questions and answers, can hardly be termed an "EXTENDED conversation"  :dontknow:

If you are submitting to a temptation, then it is the temptation you worship... You are slave or servant to that which you submit yourself... 

And for that matter... when a "knee" is bowed, it is not speaking of a part of your anatomy... It is speaking of the "knee" or ALLEGIANCE of your heart...

I am quite surprised that you of all people here, take these verses as a "Literal context" as opposed to SPIRITUAL premises being presented and responded to, Spiritually...  :dontknow:

Like I said, you will not suffer either way, and I have not found a single person who knows all the truths my self included.  We only know in part. As for my part, Satan is a created being, (not a fallen Angel)  a tool used for God's plan of the Ages.  It matters not who's correct, your status in the resurrection has already been established.

This is an UnBiblical belief bro... ("satan" as a "created being")

Where is the Scripture which notes the CREATION of "satan"?

There is no Scriptural account for the "creation" of any other angel either for that matter (at least I haven't found any)... I would appreciate it you know any that you could provide them...

I do not believe ANGELS were ever created... they have always BEEN, as have we... 

YHVH is ALL in ALL... and NEVER changes... Mal 3:6 -- Heb 13:8 --  He NEVER "BECOMES" anything He is NOT already... for that would constitute a CHANGE in entities (God and His WORD) that are ALREADY PERFECT... :yes:

...willieH  :cloud9:

What do you mean by the statement that "they have always BEEN, as have we..."?

My take on angels is that it is simply a reference to messengers.  An Apostle for example, is one I would call an Angel, as they are SENT with a message.

Paul

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2009, 06:06:42 PM »
Hi WillieH, I know you don't mean offense. No worries.  :HeartThrob:

Quote
The presence of YHVH (divinity/Godhead), was indeed dwelling IN Him making Him thereby the SON of GOD, ...but was not ALL that He was... He was also the SON of MAN...  which means that the presence of MAN was IN Him as well...

JESUS was a 2 fold being... He was SON of GOD, for YHVH was His Father, so 100% of Him was DIVINE because of it... but,

JESUS was the SON of MAN as Mary was His Mother, so 100% of Him was human (MAN) because of this, as well...

Yes, Jesus was the Son of Man and he was 100% human, but 0% carnally minded. Why? Because he had 100% of the Spirit.

Romans 8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Luke 3
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am WELL pleased.


Quote
If He is so tempted (or "tried/tested" as you describe it)... AS are we... then He had to experience the tuggings of TEMPTATION in the very SAME WAYS that we DO...

That's not actually true Willie. Someone can be tried without feeling temptation. John says that if any man says he is without sin, he deceives himself and the truth is not in him. We have sin. Jesus was tested in all points, YET (this is where the exception comes in ) WITHOUT sin. We are tested WITH sin, he was tested in the same points we are WITHOUT (the word there is APART FROM) sin. So in whatever way Christ was tested like us, it was apart from sin, which is much unlike our own carnal nature.

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He could NOT be "tempted/tried/tested" by the potential LUST of a woman, unless indeed, it came upon Him... (or any other temptation which presents itself to man/woman)

Sure he could. You could place a woman before him to TEST, TO TRY, or TO TEMPT him, and while I might feel lust, he would not. What is the difference between Christ and me? I have sin, and He was without sin. The action of testing someone with an object of desire, does not necessitate the feeling of lust.

Quote
If indeed it was NOT POSSIBLE for Him to SIN... then to state Him as "overcoming" TEMPTATION, is a sham...
It's not a sham when you consider that Jesus overcame the world.

1 John 1
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

John 16
31 Jesus answered them, "Do you now believe?
32 Behold, the hour is coming, indeed it has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home, and will leave me alone. Yet I am not alone, for the Father is with me.
33 I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world."


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I agree and disagree with this bro... His mind had to have been ABLE to succumb to SIN or He did not OVERCOME the TEMPTATION to do it...

Jesus overcame the world. It doesn't say he overcame the feeling of lust.

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Here's the deal... If GOD made temptation able to penetrate everything but STEEL and CHRIST was STEEL ENCASED... then How could it be said He was TEMPTED? 

Because there is a fundamental difference between the action of testing, and the result of feeling tempted.


Quote
I think this is amiss... CHRIST did not DIE to save men from temptation, ...he died for those who have FALLEN INTO IT... And He did so, by ENDURING TEMPTATION and SHUNNING its proposals...  The PROPOSALS had to enter His mind, or He could not have ENDURED them...

EXAMPLE:  If I am an ALCOHOLIC and PRESENTLY there is NO ALCOHOL to drink, am I still PRESENTLY "TEMPTED" by it to drink IT even though there is NONE PRESENT? 

CHRIST was TEMPTED, but SIN is only BORN when one INDULGES in the TEMPTATION which is OFFERED:

James 1:15 -- THEN, when LUST  HAS CONCIEVED, it bringeth forth SIN and SIN when it is finished bringeth forth death...

LUST (or TEMPTATION) must be ENGAGED before LUST (desire)  CONCIEVES (births) SIN... 

CHRIST did not ENGAGE the TEMPTATION presented Him, as do we... He ABSTAINED and OVERCAME its urging...

WillieH, I am not sure how that addresses what I said about Romans 5.

Romans 5
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person--though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die--
8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.


God commended his love for us in that a righteous, Godly man died for the ungodly. That Christ was without sin reveals his love that he died for those who were not without sin. Yes, lust must be engaged before lust conceives an outward sinful act which is what John is talking about. However:

Matt 5
27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


Do you remember when Paul said that we struggle with sin IN the flesh? That passage from John does not simply define all sin as being outward working, otherwise you would need to throw out the passages that show that we have sin IN the flesh BEFORE it is worked outwardly. The lust that is concieved in the heart is still sin (adultery in the heart), however, it when the inward sin is conceived it brings forth sin outwardly. To be carnally minded is death, and to work sin brings for the wages of death. While Christ was human, he, while in the flesh retained the mind of the Spirit, not the carnal mind which is death. Christ died to free people from the carnal mind, so he did not die for himself, thereby revealing the love if God in a completely selfless act.


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I see it as MAN wishing to AVOID DEATH... CHRIST was still a MAN... and MEN will always make an effort to AVOID DEATH...

What I see in it is that God was speaking the words of Christ, and that Christ did nothing of himself including his experience at the Garden. God caused Christ to say those words to reveal Christ's complete submission and total lack of a carnal mind, in that, though he felt fear, he did not oppose the righteousness of God nor his will.


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You are welcome dear brother to continue believing this, however... If CHRIST indeed did not have the CARNAL urgings which WE DO... then He "OVERCAME" nothing...

Yes he did. He overcame the world who were his enemies as he died for them. By commending love to the world, as the world knew him not, he overcame the world by His spirit.


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The CARNAL nature is more than just the "mind" and its processings...

It is the LUST of the EYE (as It "TEMPTS"), and the LUST of the FLESH (as IT "TEMPTS") and the PRIDE of LIFE (as IT "TEMPTS") -- 1 John 2:16

Every point you described, "of the eye" "of the flesh" "of life" occurs in the mind. The eye does not sin of itself, until the mind concieves what the eye provides and it results in lust within the mind. Have you ever seen someone knocked unconscious? Do they feel any lust of the flesh even though the flesh is alive? Of course not, because THEIR MINDS are not active. The carnal nature is ALL in the mind which is why the solution to the carnal nature is "the renewing of the mind."

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If you examine His "wilderness Temptation", all THREE of these were contained IN that presentation:

#1 -- Lust of the flesh
#2 -- Lust of the Eye
#3 -- Pride of Life

Matt 4:3-10 

verse 3 -- and when the tempter came to him he said (#1) "if Thou be the Son of God, command these stones to be made bread

verse 5-6 -- then the devil taketh Him up into the holy city, and setteth Him on a pinnacle of the temple, ...and saith unto Him, (#3) If Thou be the Son of God cast Thyself down for it is written He shall give His angels charge concerning Thee and in their hands they shall bear Thee up, lest Thou dash Thy foot against a stone

verse 8-9 -- again the devil taketh Him up inot an exceeding high mountain and (#2) SHOWETH Him ALL the Kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them... and saith unto Him, all these things will I give Thee if Thou wilt fall down and worship me...

All these things combined (#1, #2 & #3) are within the experience of the CARNAL NATURE... and CHRIST had to have overcome them ALL via EXPERIENCING being TEMPTED OF EACH of THEM (as are WE tempted of them), in order to call Him an OVERCOMER OF THEM ALL...

(1) In the presentation to the FLESH to change the rocks into food, JESUS had to overcome the temptation to satisfy His body...

(2) in the presentation to the EYE, in seeing them... JESUS had to overcome the temptation of the GLORY of all the kingdoms of the world...

(3)  and in presentation to His LIFE, knowing the power of YHVH...JESUS had to overcome the temptation of (PRIDE of) LIFE to overcome and defer the temptation of God's saving measures to preserve His life...

Yes Jesus had to overcome the testing of Satan. Satan TESTED Jesus with those things, and Jesus revealed why God was WELL pleased with him. WillieH, again, one can be tested without feeling temptation. Satan tried Jesus, no doubt, but there is no suggestion in those passages that Jesus struggled with feelings. Rather the opposite, Jesus revealed that he was "without sin" when he was tested to appeal to the Word. Christ's testing was not for himself, but as admonition to us. God was already well pleased with Christ, yet He showed the world Christ's perfection by showing how someone can be tested without a carnal mind and how the spiritually minded man responds.

The lamb of God: without spot or blemish to be presented as an offering for the ungodly.

Peace to you too bro. Love you.

Hi Seth, the scriptures say this:

Heb 4:15  For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

If Jesus couldn't conceive lust and hate in His heart then He was NOT tempted like we are.  For we can.  And this verse gives credit that He was also as it says in all points that He was tempted like as we are. 

If Jesus didn't have a carnal nature to overcome then why come in the Flesh?  God's Word says:

Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Notice it says likeness of SINFUL flesh.  It doesn't say nonsinful flesh.  The flesh He had - somehow had to be able to sin.

He condemns sin in the flesh but not giving into its own lusts.  For that to happen He has to have the lusts conceived in His own heart and more so.  Since Jesus knows His own Status as God's Son then think what LEVEL of Pride could have overcame Him?  He was far more tempted then all of us.  Ever see someone get a little power and how fast they tend to abuse it?  That is because they can't overcome the temptation to use it in a way that is self centered.  Here you have Jesus with so much power and authority and yet He doesn't give into the temptations.  And those temptations came from within His own flesh.  If Jesus didn't have a carnal nature to overcome then He can't claim to have put down a carnal nature.  We have a carnal nature that needs to be overcome.  If Jesus didn't do the same then He cannot be an example to how we shall overcome.  To have an evil thought in ones mind is not sin.  It is when the evil thought becomes an action that it becomes sin.  It is what comes out of a man that defiles him.

Mat 15:11  Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

They way to think of this is that Jesus had a carnal ability (because He was in the flesh) but never exhibited that carnal ability.  So his nature wasn't carnal but divine but the carnal nature was in His flesh but not revealed because the Holy Spirit overcame it.  This is what is meant by putting down sin in ones flesh.

Paul
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 06:11:02 PM by trettep »

Offline Cardinal

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2009, 06:23:46 PM »
 :cloud9: Love your posts on this thread, Sheila........ :thumbsup: Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor