Author Topic: Why does Religion attract large multitudes??  (Read 1198 times)

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Offline fire walker

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Why does Religion attract large multitudes??
« on: October 30, 2007, 09:56:34 AM »
Every once in awhile I ponder over what power do religious leaders like Reverend Jim Jones, and many others along these same general lines have and who gives them these abilities to attract multitudes of members to their churches and also their ability to deceive and be well received and endorsed by mainline church leaders of their day?  How do churches along these lines manage to get multitudes of folks caught up in their clutches until it seems beyond human possibility or hope for these followers of such to escape their clutches?

I have studied this and also political leaders who become dictatorial and tighten up the loop so that they hold near absolute iron fisted power over large numbers of folks for an unspecified period of time to eventualy go down into ruin taking all or near all who were under their control down with them.

I know the word says for all things there is a season, and yes it say he reserves the wicked for the day of evil, even with that I can not believe all the people that went down in Jones town Guyana were anymore than victims of wickedly  powerful evil religious spirits. It is the powerful evil Spirits in high places that we struggle with and not flesh and blood like Reverend Jim Jones was, or Stalin or Hitler, all flesh and blood mortal beings like ourselves.

Trusting in the salvation of all from the sins of this world as being the whole purpose of
God sending his Son into the World and awaking the spirit within us to overcome fear with love, it is grieving to read accounts about the part the church played in the enquisitions, crusades, and all those evil things that were done in the name of the church and then there was
Gangis Khon, Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler and a horde of other wicked historical accounts that this world has passed through, so many we can never know all of it that has happened from Adam until now, some of us here have either been the cause of someone elses suffering, have suffered at the hands of others or both, however with most often is indirectly, I suppose that might be called trespasses unknowingly  without intent, and other times less often out of direct intent usualy due to anger that turns toward revenge, I like it that vengance belongs to God and not me, he is just,  I believe God uses all things for our good and so his vengance is not as man
twists it around to be as eternal hell. 

There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 05:51:29 AM by fire walker »
If in this life only we have hope in Christ we are of all men most miserable.

                1Cr 14:19

Offline 97531

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Re: how do they attract multitudes of folks?
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2007, 12:16:47 PM »
Vengeance is Mine.

Somewhere I wrote about this and I also mentioned that it is better that we leave vengeance to God as He has more compassion than we can ever hope to have.  With each one He has a plan of redemption.

I looked up the source of this in Deuteronomy and thought to share some things I found.  The context only folk break this "hallowed" rule when it suits them.

Deu 32:1  Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
Deu 32:2  My doctrine shall drop as the rain; my speech shall drop down as the dew, as the small rain on the tender plant, and as the showers on the grass;
Deu 32:3  because I will proclaim the name of Jehovah, ascribe greatness to our God.
Deu 32:4  He is the Rock; His work is perfect. For all His ways are just, a God of faithfulness, and without evil; just and upright is He.

What an awesome declaration of who God is
 
Deu 32:5  They have corrupted themselves: they are not His sons; it is their blemish; they are a crooked and perverse generation.
Deu 32:6  Do you thus give back to Jehovah, Oh foolish and unwise people? Is He not your Father who bought you? Has He not made you and established you?

Now I love this piece.  Just like those who are called in Matthew 25:33-46 as goats, many see the goats as the unrighteous yet goats were clean animals.  The sheep He puts to the right hand, if we look at the parable of the lost "goat" Sheep, and tie these two together, then we see the connection.  I just thought on something; have you ever observed how sheep and goats graze?  In Africa, the indigenous farmers prefer goats as they are hardy animals and require no shepherding.  They essentially do their own thing, climb trees, rocky slopes etc. whereas sheep generally are herd/flock animals and require shepherding.
 
Deu 32:7  Remember the days of old; consider the years of many generations. Ask your father, and he will show you; your elders, and they will tell you.
Deu 32:8  When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of Adam, He set the bounds of the people according to the number of the sons of Israel.
Deu 32:9  For Jehovah's portion is His people. Jacob is the lot of His inheritance.
Deu 32:10  He found him in a desert land, and in the deserted, howling wilderness. He led him about, He cared for him, He kept him as the pupil of His eye.
Deu 32:11  As an eagle stirs up her nest, flutters over her young, spreads abroad her wings, takes them and bears them on her wing,
Deu 32:12  Jehovah alone led him, and there was no strange god with him.
Deu 32:13  He made him ride on the high places of the earth, so that he might eat the increase of the fields. And He made him suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock,
Deu 32:14  butter from cows, and milk from sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the sons of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat. And you drank the blood of the grape.

Wow notice all the good things.  Many deeper spiritual meanings here, I may touch on this later.
 
Deu 32:15  But Jeshurun(3484) grew fat and kicked. You grew fat, thick, and satisfied. Then he forsook God who made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
Deu 32:16  They provoked Him to jealousy with strange gods; with abominations they provoked Him to anger.
Deu 32:17  They sacrificed to devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new ones newly come up, whom your fathers did not fear.
Deu 32:18  You forgot the Rock who brought you forth, and ceased to care for God who formed you.

H3484 ישׁרוּן yeshûrûn yesh-oo-roon'
From H3474; upright; Jeshurun, a symbolical name for Israel: - Jeshurun.

Amazing the upright word here with a negative context connotation.  See also wheat and tares.  A tare looks like wheat until pre-harvest, the wheat bows it's head while the tare cannot, it remains upright.


 
Deu 32:19  And Jehovah saw, and despised them because of the provoking of His sons and of His daughters.
Deu 32:20  And He said, I will hide My face from them; I will see what their end shall be. For they are a very perverse generation, sons in whom is no faithfulness.
Deu 32:21  They have moved Me to jealousy with a no-god. They have provoked Me to anger with their vanities. And I will move them to jealousy with a no-people. I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
Deu 32:22  For a fire is kindled in My anger, and shall burn to the lowest hell[sheh-ole'], and shall consume the earth with its increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
Deu 32:23  I will heap evils on them. I will spend My arrows on them.
Deu 32:24  Exhaustion by famine, and consumption by burning heat, and bitter destruction, and the teeth of beasts I will send on them, with the poison of crawling things of the dust.
Deu 32:25  The sword outside, and the terror inside, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of grey hairs.
Deu 32:26  I said I would dash them to pieces; I would make the memory of them to cease from among men,
Deu 32:27  were it not the provocation of an enemy I feared, lest their enemies should misconstrue; lest they should say, Our hand is high and Jehovah has not done all this.
Deu 32:28  For they are a nation without wisdom, neither is there any understanding in them.
Deu 32:29  If they were wise, they would understand this; they would consider their latter end!
Deu 32:30  How shall one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them and Jehovah had shut them up?
Deu 32:31  For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges. (Note how unbelievers judge the Church today)
Deu 32:32  For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah. Their grapes are grapes of gall. Their clusters are bitter.
Deu 32:33  Their wine is the poison of serpents, and the cruel venom of asps.
Deu 32:34  Is not this laid up in store with Me and sealed up among My treasures?

Clusters

H811 אשׁכּל    אשׁכּול 'eshkôl  'eshkôll esh-kole', esh-kole'
Probably prolonged from H810; a bunch of grapes or other fruit: - cluster (of grapes).
H810 אשׁך 'eshek eh'-shek
From an unused root (probably meaning to bunch together); a testicle (as a lump): - stone.

2Co 3:3  it having been made plain that you are the epistle of Christ, ministered by us, not having been written with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not on tablets of stone, but in fleshly tablets of the heart.
 
Deu 32:35  Vengeance and retribution recompense belong to Me. Their foot shall slide in time, for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come on them make haste.
Deu 32:36  For Jehovah will bring His people justice; and He shall have compassion on His servants, for He sees that their power is gone, and only the imprisoned and abandoned remain.
Deu 32:37  And He shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted?
Deu 32:38  Who ate the fat of their sacrifices and drank the wine of their drink offerings? Let them rise up and help you; let it be your hiding place.

I see here justice to His people yet He has compassion on His servants.  No matter if you do a flip-flop interpretation of this, it holds true for the righteous and unrighteous.

Let us look at vengeance but together with recompense, the NKJV retribution is wrong.

H8005 שׁלּם shillêm shil-lame'
From H7999; requital- recompense: .

H7999 שׁלם shâlam shaw-lam'
A primitive root; to be safe (in mind, body or estate); figuratively to be (causatively make) completed; by implication to be friendly; by extension to reciprocate (in various applications): - make amends, (make an) end, finish, full, give again, make good, (re-) pay (again), (make) (to) (be at) peace (-able), that is perfect, perform, (make) prosper (-ous), recompense, render, requite, make restitution, restore, reward, X surely.

Wow where did the NKJV translators get retribution from

Websters
Main Entry: ret·ri·bu·tion 
Pronunciation: re-trə-byü-shən
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English retribucioun, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin retribution-, retributio, from Latin retribuere to pay back, from re- + tribuere to pay — more at tribute
Date: 14th century
1: recompense, reward
2: the dispensing or receiving of reward or punishment especially in the hereafter
3: something given or exacted in recompense; especially : punishment

Main Entry: 1rec·om·pense 
Pronunciation: re-kəm-pen(t)s
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): rec·om·pensed; rec·om·pens·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French recompenser, from Late Latin recompensare, from Latin re- + compensare to compensate
Date: 15th century
1 a: to give something to by way of compensation (as for a service rendered or damage incurred) b: to pay for
2: to return in kind : requite


 
Deu 32:39  See now that I, I am He, and there is no god with me. I kill, and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is no deliverer out of My hand.
Deu 32:40  For I lift up My hand to Heaven and say, I live forever!
Deu 32:41  If I sharpen My glittering sword, and if My hand takes hold in judgment, I will give vengeance to My enemies and will reward those that hate Me.
Deu 32:42  I will make My arrows drunk with blood, and My sword shall devour flesh, with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the hairy scalp of the enemy.
Deu 32:43  Rejoice, O, nations, with His people; for He will avenge the blood of His servants, and will render vengeance to His foes and will be merciful to His land, to His people.

Boy if they only look at the deeper meanings, they shall see, God's vengeance is not directed to the unrighteous only, it is a double edged sword, it cuts both ways.

See when one is looking for retribution, pay-back, then carnally you will see hatred.  If you are however looking for Justice, you will see Mercy, Love;  You will see the Spirit at work not the flesh.

Therefore they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate

Blessings
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Offline fire walker

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Re: how do they attract multitudes of folks?
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2009, 08:53:38 AM »
Wished I had seen Bernies reply on this when this thread was fresh, a good reply on a thread I've started always gets a return coment from me, I missed this one.

Maybe this thread can revive, the question
is still in my mind how do these relgionists attract such large multitudes of people?
This very question still preplexes me from time to time especialy since in the good news gospel we are exhorted to worship in truth and in spirit and to follow no man. It is hard to see preachers with such negative influence (looking positive on the surface or in the begining encounter) over such large numbers of folks who these preachers never mention to folks that we are to follow no man and that we are to worship in spirit and in truth, for their own selfish reasons they conveniently forget to mention these important things and that our walk by faith is a personal thing between the individual and God not between us and corporate social gospel church leaders!

Now more adverse or contrary figures appear as old ones fade away, now there is a Pastor Fred Phelps and his church who go out and preach repent or burn and condemn people at military funerals, from what I've heard he is a very condemning and fundimentalist  down to the letter preacher, fortunatey his church is small, yet he has adversely touched the lives of countless people with his ministery of condemnation at funerals, hospitals and such in places and at times where folks
are vunerable to being hurt be his miserable condemning words.

Most certainly I would appreciate anyones POV or insight into this subject because it seems it is a part of the religious/political system that is of this world and we all have to contend with this subject in one way or another on our journey through this world that the system of this world is built up by the hands of men just as the type of unity that men walked with in Babylon was, appearing to have a form of godliness but denies the power thereof.

Peace,
Fire Walker
« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 08:13:22 AM by fire walker »
If in this life only we have hope in Christ we are of all men most miserable.

                1Cr 14:19

Offline legoman

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Re: Why does Religion attract large multitudes??
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2009, 08:46:15 PM »
Simple answer:  Because it is God's will.  And it is God's will that many be deceived and not understand the truth.

martincisneros

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Re: Why does Religion attract large multitudes??
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2009, 02:24:12 AM »
Well, the "follow no man" is a part of the religious stuff that UR folks get into, and is the absolute furthest from either the Gospel or the Biblical pattern from cover to cover in the Bible.  The New Testament is extremely "Eastern" about Master and Disciple.  It's in everything Jesus said in His relationship to His disciples, in everything Paul, Peter, and John said in relationship to their disciples, etc.  It's been my experience that UR folks are just as religious as any other crowd, denomination, Church, movement, or whatever about having their own man made traditions such as this "following no man" that I hear get tossed around all of the time that abuses and confuses the differences between the liberties of this present age, those of the New Earth, and those of the All in All world.

Offline Redlettervoice

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Re: Why does Religion attract large multitudes??
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2009, 02:25:03 PM »



"Religion" "does" attract multitudes.

I guess Truth does not.

I always wondered if the "cross" has anything to do with that.

Take UP "your" cross and follow him.


Paradox: The way to find your "LIFE" ....."real LIFE" is to lose
the other one. 

People who look for proofs of that LIFE, real LIFE, by looking
at things in the natural, miss the whole point.  HE was
dwelling in the heavens, when He bore a cross. So was Stephen
He didn't see the stones, He saw Jesus.

If you are looking for a kingdom you can see with your eyes, you
are NOT looking at the ONE Jesus spoke of when He said: "My Kingdom
is NOT of this world."

God "chose" Paul to suffer..........and He also said, "he that
suffers, "shall" reign."

Proselyting unless God directs it, makes "religion" ..........

When Jesus was being crucified, there stood people LOOKInG for His
Proof by what they could "see" by the natural eyes......"come down
from your cross."  etc. etc.  but

there was people also there that when He was crucified, said "Surely
this was the Son of God" and they must have recognized him by
His Fruits.

Christ the Firstfruits.

Pilate even "craved" His body.........I guess he knew something.
I remember a guy writing an excellent article on that!
WHY Pilate craved it. 

Maybe Pilate knew if the Firstfruits were holy, so also was
the other.....................Hallelujah!

God not done yet!  Yet He is done!

Offline Redlettervoice

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Re: Why does Religion attract large multitudes??
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2009, 02:29:24 PM »
Simple answer:  Because it is God's will.  And it is God's will that many be deceived and not understand the truth.

I do agree with this.  Known unto God are all his ways from the
beginning.  Even when He was here in the likeness of man,
there were "multitudes" that followed Him "afar" off.

Did Jesus send them away not being fed? No.

Sorta hints at a great great feeding, don't it?

Isa. 25

The FEAST prepared by the Lord.


Offline chuckt

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Re: Why does Religion attract large multitudes??
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2009, 02:49:05 PM »
Simple answer:  Because it is God's will.  And it is God's will that many be deceived and not understand the truth.

I do agree with this.  Known unto God are all his ways from the
beginning.  Even when He was here in the likeness of man,
there were "multitudes" that followed Him "afar" off.

Did Jesus send them away not being fed? No.

Sorta hints at a great great feeding, don't it?

Isa. 25

The FEAST prepared by the Lord.




sweet.
2

Offline rosered

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Re: Why does Religion attract large multitudes??
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2009, 03:25:26 PM »

 :thumbsup:
 
Mat 9:36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.    :HeartThrob:

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Why does Religion attract large multitudes??
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2009, 08:01:30 PM »
 :cloud9: Why? Because the Jezebel spirit is the covering over the churches, ie. a veil of flesh that must be rent, before the Truth can be seen. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline fire walker

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Re: Why does Religion attract large multitudes??
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2009, 08:01:14 AM »
Well, the "follow no man" is a part of the religious stuff that UR folks get into, and is the absolute furthest from either the Gospel or the Biblical pattern from cover to cover in the Bible.  The New Testament is extremely "Eastern" about Master and Disciple.  It's in everything Jesus said in His relationship to His disciples, in everything Paul, Peter, and John said in relationship to their disciples, etc.  It's been my experience that UR folks are just as religious as any other crowd, denomination, Church, movement, or whatever about having their own man made traditions such as this "following no man" that I hear get tossed around all of the time that abuses and confuses the differences between the liberties of this present age, those of the New Earth, and those of the All in All world.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Well Martin,

Who do you follow?

Personaly I have followed many people in this life, I follow my  parents in age, my children and grandchildren and great grandchildren follow me in age, so who is following who?

I honored my mother and father and followed as they told me as a child if not us kids got taken behind the wood shed for a good belting for not minding the folks.

I followed my boss during my working years to do as he instructed what needed done.

I followed my school teachers instructions while at school as a youth, I have followed many people and some have followed me
so maybe you have not understood in what way I meant  "follow no man" , I am not religious by a long shot if that is what you mean to imply, I am in my 70 years of age and think I know the truth of that by now, I have no doubt in the salvation of all men and have been gifted enough in spirit to be descerning enough not to follow religious huxters like Jim Jones, John Hagee or Fred Phelps for starters, I believe in level fellowship without sitting under the Popeish rule of "priests", or any other member or exalt any man to the place of  mediator between man (that includes me)
 and God, there is one mediator between man and God and that is the man Christ Jesus, there are not many mediators there is only ONE and in that respect I am saying follow no man.

I am sure that folks thought they were following the  spirit and not any man when they followed these religious leaders I posted about when opening this thread too, and my point was that one would be better off  alone in the wilderness than following any man just to be following them for religions sake or as an obligation in the spirit of the pharisee  mosiac religious observance.

Peace,
Fire Walker
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 09:29:40 PM by fire walker »
If in this life only we have hope in Christ we are of all men most miserable.

                1Cr 14:19

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Why does Religion attract large multitudes??
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2009, 08:08:12 AM »
that was wondrous.

Offline sparrow

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Re: Why does Religion attract large multitudes??
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2009, 08:13:38 AM »
I think religion attracts large multitudes because there is safety in numbers.

There is a lot of fear out there.

But it's when God takes you THROUGH that fear,
holds your hand as you walk over those hot coals to get to the other side,
that you find TRUE safety.  :HeartThrob:

A lot of folks are still standing with the masses... on the other side of those hot coals.
Slowly but surely, he'll take each hand and guide them across.
When they get to the other side and notice their feet are not burnt, and look into His loving eyes... then they will find true safety.


well just some ponderings.  :happy3:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why does Religion attract large multitudes??
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2009, 08:32:08 AM »
Why large multitudes?  Because people are like sheep and will follow anyone who does a good act of being shepherd.  Sheep just follow the leader, and,  like Sparrow says, there is some kind of atavistic fear of standing alone--I think it might go back to the days where if you were alone, it could mean a death sentence because people needed the clan to survive.

I just saw Valkyrie recently--what courage it took to stand up to that unholy system of man, and by the way, they almost succeeded in taking the reins away from Hitler--but for some reason that totally mystifies me in the end, people would rather put up with all kinds of injustice to maintain the status quo, than stand up against it and for what is right--even if given the chance.

The history of the last century (20th) was horrendous because of this tendency of people.

I guess what it comes down to is this--


Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.





Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Why does Religion attract large multitudes??
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2009, 08:38:23 AM »
the wonder of it all is...
its simplicity.

Offline fire walker

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Re: Why does Religion attract large multitudes??
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2009, 10:14:33 AM »
Thanks all for your replies on this topic, all replies were directly in answer to the question in this thread with the exception of Martin who wandered off topic into another area, I addressed that with a response to that post so all is well and I appreciate all the responces and input received, that includes you Martin, thanks for your response even if it was not in direct response to the question in the subject of this thread, I think what you brought up in your reply would be better served on a new thread to do with seasons
of our lives. We have a season in life for sitting under teachers as disciples, however just like school we don't sit in the first grade forever drinking milk unless one is in fear of losing their covering by venturing
outside the religious box to worship in spirit and in truth as we are exhorted to do.

Peace,
Fire Walker   
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 09:45:40 PM by fire walker »
If in this life only we have hope in Christ we are of all men most miserable.

                1Cr 14:19

Offline Pierac

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Re: Why does Religion attract large multitudes??
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2009, 09:17:23 AM »
Hunger draws them.

You know what cooks say....  hunger is the best sauce!  :laughing7:


Paul

Offline fire walker

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Re: Why does Religion attract large multitudes??
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2009, 02:00:26 AM »
Hunger draws them.

You know what cooks say....  hunger is the best sauce!  :laughing7:


Paul


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yes I agree, and appreciate your reply Pierac.

Peace,
Fire Walker

If in this life only we have hope in Christ we are of all men most miserable.

                1Cr 14:19

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Why does Religion attract large multitudes??
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2009, 03:07:00 AM »
Cardinal has said it before in another thread.
There is an inherent desire in all for God.
From the ancients to contemporary man, we all desire Him, to know Him — to be like Him.
It's the vacuum created since the expulsion from Eden — the constant craving to return.