Author Topic: Why did God make drugs?  (Read 6265 times)

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Offline Reverend G

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #50 on: July 14, 2008, 02:37:35 PM »
I find it only slightly odd that you first discount anything the "press" says about hallucinogens, and then point us to your own "press" findings that support your point of view.  Especially given that the report was about 36 people, in controlled conditions, not at all about persons experimenting casually to their own devices.  Hardly an iron-clad proof of your opinion, is it?

We all do have our own biases, and yours are apparent here, as I would assume are my own.  I do wonder, had you taken such great amounts of time and energy and devoted them to something besides your search for recreational drugs, what could you have accomplished for this world.

Paul

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #51 on: July 14, 2008, 03:19:17 PM »
We all do have our own biases, and yours are apparent here, as I would assume are my own.  I do wonder, had you taken such great amounts of time and energy and devoted them to something besides your search for recreational drugs, what could you have accomplished for this world.

...

Paul

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #52 on: July 16, 2008, 03:05:10 PM »
Welp, no one answered the original question. Why did God make substances that have such amazing effects, if not because he wanted us to use them. They're amazing enough to "fool" native Americans into thinking they're venturing to the spirit world in their 8 hour ceremonies where they trip on psilocybin mushrooms, peyote, or ayahuasca.

Did God want these people to form relationships with demons all the centuries, while everyone in the Old World was reading His book?

There was a thing on naturally-occuring psychedelic drugs on the History channel, recently, and they said when the missionaries tried witnessing about Jesus Christ to the natives, they showed them mushrooms and said we already do that. And apparantly some rumor got spread that magic mushrooms grew whereever Jesus' blood was.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #53 on: July 16, 2008, 04:54:54 PM »
I've read some of the stories on the website you gave us, and it is remarkable how many have deep experiences of God, and even Jesus, under the effects of 'mushrooms.'  But, even so, they have no way to really know what they are taking, the dosage, or predict the effect,  and they also seem to mix it with other drugs.  Some people have horrible experiences.

What I can't figure out is --why would you want to poison yourself that way?

Obviously, you can have these same mystical experiences of God and Jesus without drugs.  I recognized some of their experiences that they had while high but that I've had while sober.

You have to ask yourself--why are we all so devoted to Jesus?  Do you think it is just an intellectual hobby?

I can't answer your question--except to say that I believe our brains are wired for God, (just like they are wired for language,) and sometimes these drugs will trip those wires.  But, you don't need possibly dangerous and harmful drugs to meet God--just patience, faith, and a desire to find the truth.


17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
--Proverbs 8

Paul

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #54 on: July 16, 2008, 05:54:29 PM »
Glad you read some of the trip reports. Thanks for the comment.

What I can't figure out is --why would you want to poison yourself that way?

These drugs aren't poisonous.

"LSD and related substances are not drugs in the usual sense, but are part of the sacred substances, which have been used for thousand of years in ritual settings. The classic psychedelics like LSD, Psilocybin and Mescaline are characterized by the fact that they are neither toxic nor addictive. It is my great concern to separate psychedelics from the ongoing debates about drugs, and to highlight the tremendous potential inherent to these substances for self-awareness, as an adjunct in therapy, and for fundamental research into the human mind." ľAlbert Hofmann, Ph.D.

I think the majority of negative things you hear about these drugs is a combination of propaganda and what I pointed out in this post: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2915.msg30051#msg30051

Also, take note of the fact that the Bad Trips and Train Wrecks and Trip Disasters sections are missing for the peyote trip reports:

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Peyote.shtml

Obviously, you can have these same mystical experiences of God and Jesus without drugs. I recognized some of their experiences that they had while high but that I've had while sober.

I think it's apples and oranges.

Maybe you should try a psychedelic drug, so you can make a true comparison.

DNA was dicovered on a low dose of LSD (http://www.hallucinogens.com/lsd/francis-crick.html); I'm sure you'd make some amazing discoveries in the Bible on a psychedelic.

You have to ask yourself--why are we all so devoted to Jesus?  Do you think it is just an intellectual hobby?

Man seeks to understand the unknown. Why and how we're here is probably the greatest mystery ever. For whatever reason, you believe the god described in the Bible to be true. If I lived during the time of Jesus, I'd be one of the guys to say "This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils."
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 06:15:53 PM by Paul »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #55 on: July 16, 2008, 05:56:33 PM »
Welp, no one answered the original question.

I think people have.   The basic thought seems to be that there are good uses for drugs, and mostly medical.

What you want is people to join your campfire for recreational use, to just get high whenever you want because some study says you'll be ok.  Is this the rational thought that drug use has allowed you to achieve?   Wonderful for you ,Knock yourself out.  The realities of life around us tell a different tale.



Offline Molly

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #56 on: July 16, 2008, 06:53:19 PM »
Quote
DNA was dicovered on a low dose of LSD



Maybe that's why Watson and Crick 'forgot' that Rosalind Franklin discovered the double helix, not themselves.



"After discovering the existence of the A and B forms of DNA, Rosalind Franklin also succeeded in developing an ingenious and laborious method to separate the two forms, providing the first DNA crystals pure enough to yield interpretable diffraction patterns. She then went on to obtain excellent X-ray diffraction patterns of crystalline B-form DNA and, using a combination of crystallographic theory and chemical reasoning, discovered important basic facts about its structure. She discovered that the sugar-phosphate backbone of DNA lies on the outside of the molecule, not the inside as was previously thought. She discovered the helical structure of DNA has two strands, not three as proposed in competing theories. She gave quantitative details about the shape and size of the double helix. The all- important missing piece of the puzzle, that she could not discover from her data, was how the bases paired on the inside of the helix, and thus the secret of heredity itself. That discovery remained for Watson and Crick to make.

After Randall presented Franklin's data and unpublished conclusions at a routine seminar, aspects of her results were informally communicated to Watson and Crick by Maurice Wilkins and Max Perutz, without her or John Randall's knowledge."


"Rosalind Franklin (1920-1958) by David Ardell
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 06:55:30 PM by Molly »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #57 on: July 16, 2008, 06:57:22 PM »
I've read some of the stories on the website you gave us, and it is remarkable how many have deep experiences of God, and even Jesus, under the effects of 'mushrooms.' 

And people can make up anything no matter what they are on.   There is a pattern I see and that is that the more emotional the experience the closer to God one must be.

Is this really the truth of experiencing God?


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But, even so, they have no way to really know what they are taking, the dosage, or predict the effect,  and they also seem to mix it with other drugs.  Some people have horrible experiences.

This is the reality of our society.  The tobacco companies used to provide all sorts of "studies" till the reality of life has caused them to not be taken seriously anymore.

Few users are going to benefit our society from recreational drug use.  It a matter of trying to make the exception the rule. 

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What I can't figure out is --why would you want to poison yourself that way?

One thing that mind altering drugs will do is cause someone to think that everythings ok.  And there are people who will use things mildly and not cause themselves or anyone any problems.  The reality of our society is that we do not have a social structure that is adequate enough to allow this pipe dream of drug use to ever manifest itself to the degree all the recreational drug advocates think should be.  A study only factors in the controlled environment and what they look for as an outcome.  Our society is the best study of all.

A study gives more evidence on the effect when used for medical purposes than it does for a user who goes to work everyday and is productive to society.


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Obviously, you can have these same mystical experiences of God and Jesus without drugs.  I recognized some of their experiences that they had while high but that I've had while sober.

People over-emotionalize everything.  Just as someione can emotionalize some great experience with God, someone else can be in depression because they cannot afford to buy SOD for their yard <---(unfortunatly that last part there is a true story, sad, sad)

I'm not saying we cannot have real great experiences with God.  But I believe, at least for me,  these great experiences, remain great and I do not desire the next "fix" from the religion drug.


Offline Reverend G

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #58 on: July 16, 2008, 11:13:50 PM »
I think the question has been more than sufficiently answered IF you choose to read the answers.  So why not ask, why does God allow the devil to exist if not for us to worship the devil?  Trying to make your actions justified just isn't working.  No one is condemning, but it looks like the justification you seek is not forthcoming.

Paul

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2008, 03:54:58 AM »
Polymerase Chain Reaction

"Would I have invented PCR if I hadn't taken LSD? I seriously doubt it. I could sit on a DNA molecule and watch the polymers go by."

"Back in the 1960s and early '70s I took plenty of LSD. A lot of people were doing that in Berkeley back then. And I found it to be a mind-opening experience. It was certainly much more important than any courses I ever took."

(Kary Mullis, Ph.D)

« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 03:58:58 AM by Paul »

Offline Reverend G

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2008, 04:06:34 AM »
That's justification?  Hardly.  If she had not found it, and she might have without LSD, (it is easy to justify using, cuz we want to).....someone else would have.  So what is your point exactly?  Obviously all kinds of people invent lots of things, discover lots of things, write wonderful things, and have spiritual experiences WITHOUT LSD.  It sure seems to outnumber the people who have done these things on LSD.  So I would say on average, LSD is more of a hindrance.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #61 on: July 17, 2008, 05:47:51 AM »


Hey, what did the guy tripping on acid still in his moms basement chugging beer and cheetos discover?


That his fingers turned such a pretty orange.


Offline studier

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #62 on: July 18, 2008, 01:45:59 AM »
Polymerase Chain Reaction

"Would I have invented PCR if I hadn't taken LSD? I seriously doubt it. I could sit on a DNA molecule and watch the polymers go by."

"Back in the 1960s and early '70s I took plenty of LSD. A lot of people were doing that in Berkeley back then. And I found it to be a mind-opening experience. It was certainly much more important than any courses I ever took."

(Kary Mullis, Ph.D)

LOL!

There were far more scientific discoveries made while a person was not high, which makes this reason to be a fallacy. This person invented PCR and says they doubt they would have not if it had not been for drugs? This person was presupposed with the understanding, knowledge and skills to make the discovery, they just happen to have made it while on LCD.

Next they say it was certainly much more important than any courses they took? Really? Let us put a kid who took no courses who is high on LCD, and a university educated person who took the courses and find out which one can observe, understand and know to make water into free energy. I doubt the one on LCD would have a clue.

It is crazy how smart educated people are not very bright sometimes not to see their reasons are fallacious.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #63 on: July 18, 2008, 06:27:46 AM »
I do not see the closemindedness you imply.  In fact most of the people here understand that there can be possible benefits for them.  Just because it is geared towards medical needs and not the recreational use you promote does not make them close minded.  That is ignored by you by making comments like  "Welp, no one has answered the question"   So you are simply wrong in your statement.

What most are realizing is that a few web links does not change the fact that rehab centers for drug abuse have no shortage of users needing help. There is no shortage of overdose cases comeing into emergency room across the country. 

Certainly, there can be countless reasons that someone ends up on drugs and that someone can always show a stat or a neighbor or brag about their own responsibility when it comes to it, but all that doesn't change anything.

I cannot speak for anyone else, but none of the drugs I took did me or anyone else much good. Of the many drug users I have encountered in the past 30 years, none of them exibited any real quality benefit from using them.  None of them made any ground breaking revelation for the world and almost all of them complained about their status in life in one way or another.

Regaurdless of the reasoning that I had a bad home life or that I had low self esteem or countless other reasons someone can say that caused the addiction, the fact remains is that drugs are most often turned to when trying to self medicate ourselves out of misery.

The weblinks, a handful of testamonies about their great life on drugs does not change the realities of life.  The closeminded person is the one who uses drugs themselves and continually looks for reasoning to ignore many realities of a problem that is prevalent in our country. 


Paul

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #64 on: July 18, 2008, 03:44:05 PM »
You guys seem to be forgetting that these drugs have profound effects beyond "medical usage."

http://www.tripzine.com/listing.php?smlid=337
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 04:05:17 PM by Paul »

Offline studier

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #65 on: July 18, 2008, 11:11:24 PM »
Some people think I am delusional or psychotic. I enter into to a psychedelic trance ever so often, and sometimes I can induce it myself purposely. I do not need drugs to enter this state of mind, and I do see visions and other things which have no explanation. In this state, I receive several eurekas and understanding of concepts I would have not understood previous. I have seen future events, and they have come to pass. I have seen spirits and discerned them for what they were and validated by other testimony about them. That is probably why I know one doesn't need drugs to go into a psychedelic state of mind, and expand their perceptions beyond the flesh.

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Regaurdless of the reasoning that I had a bad home life or that I had low self esteem or countless other reasons someone can say that caused the addiction, the fact remains is that drugs are most often turned to when trying to self medicate ourselves out of misery.

The weblinks, a handful of testamonies about their great life on drugs does not change the realities of life.  The closeminded person is the one who uses drugs themselves and continually looks for reasoning to ignore many realities of a problem that is prevalent in our country.

You got it!  :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 11:13:39 PM by SOtW »

Offline Reverend G

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #66 on: July 19, 2008, 03:01:40 AM »
Hmm, rehab centers, billions treated, with limited success, versus pages with tens of "it's the best thing ever" testimonies?  Which one is more credible?  People will believe the one they want to believe.  That is why we have rehab centers!!!  It's funny too, that social status does not stop one from using or becoming an addict, or losing it all through addiction/abuse. 

Michele

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #67 on: July 21, 2008, 09:05:01 PM »
Good post Fire Walker! :thumbsup:

Offline fire walker

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #68 on: July 22, 2008, 06:45:28 AM »
Good post Fire Walker! :thumbsup:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thanks SG,

I appreciate those words.

Paul, sorry you see no answers to your question in all the responces on your thread here.

Ponder these verses and consider the in and the out and all sides of the messages within them:

Mathew 15: 11  it's not that which goes into
the mouth that defiles a man but that which comes out of the mouth that defiles.

All things are lawful for us but not all things edify, all things are lawful for us but not all things are helpful.

At one time tomatoes were considered to be poisonous, the tomatoe is in the nightshade family, the same plant family that belladona is found, the flowering morning glory is in this family of plants.

It has been found that in slight amounts
arsnec can be benificial to the health where in larger quanities is deadly poisonous. The safe level for one person may be too much for another person. trace amounts of arsnec is found in many foods we eat.

Most people can eat peanuts and enjoy them, also a source of protien, but peanuts are highly poisonous to some people.

Many spices that are commonly used for flaver in cooking and salad dishes are drugs mild  to a little stronger, if taken in larger doses can be as overpowering as any other drug.

The oxygen that we need to breathe can cause lite headedness and a sense of wieghtlessnes, too much or too little either way, if you take five or six fast deep breathes then hold your breathe about five seconds  you can see what I am talking about.

Doctors used to us Ether to put people out   
before sergery, I had my tonsils removed at about 6 years old, I had some very vivid dreams about spiritual things while out on ether, but I would not want to sniff ether to get high, for one it smells nasty when concentrated under the nostrils and for two
if not administered in a measured dosage
can put one to sleep and not wake up again.

God made all things for a purpose that can be used or abused by man, what generaly brings useful benifit for most people can be harmful to a few people.

We used to eat truffle mushrooms when I was a youngster, my folks picked them washed them, rolled them in flower, salt and peppered them and then fried them, they tasted just like eating meat. However I wouldn't want to pick because it would be just my luck to get some deadly poisonous
toadstool that can kill within a few minutes
I leave the picking to those who know what ones are good for food.

Fire Walker 




« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 09:32:39 AM by fire walker »
If in this life only we have hope in Christ we are of all men most miserable.

                1Cr 14:19

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #69 on: July 22, 2008, 02:34:04 PM »
I don't know about about other drugs but morphine is only addictive when taken the wrong dosage.
So if used as a painkiller you should take exactly enough and not more.

It's medically proven that a glass red wine a day is good for your health.
Needless to say that 3 bottles a day doesn't make you extra healty.

 :laughing7:Why did God create water if you can drown in it...:laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

noname

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #70 on: July 22, 2008, 04:54:55 PM »
God didn't make drugs...man did :icon_flower:

to call hemp/pot a drug would be an insult to some people...who use it as a "herb"...the same goes for magic mushrooms...these two have been used for centuries by all "medicine men" to cure and help alleviate pain, stomach illnesses, diaorea, cure stress etc etc...

personally I've seen more people addicted to man-made and legal drugs than to the herbs God made...alcohol, tobacco, prozac and all the other "mother's little helpers" you can buy over the counter...even diet pills

we just have to look at the "fruits" of the above...I've never met an angry pot smoker...but I've seen users of alcohol wipe out their own families as well as their neighbours

I also bet some of the people condemning other people of using drugs are obese (macD's is their drug)...are addicted to porn (their drug)...or are evangical christians following mad men such as Pat Robertson or subsribe to TBN (templar broadcasting network) and advocate the bombing of Iran...North Korea and/or country which does not conform to the "american dream"...make your pick

all those who condemn hemp (because you can smoke it)...should call for the grounding of all space shuttles...for they have hemp seals built into them...or should condemn the builders of the Mayflower for using hemp sails

if one condemns hemp (because it can make you high)...why not condemn diet pills (thins)...paint thinners....glue...metholated spirits...gas (petrol)...hey...even alcohol?
the above things are much more harmful than smoking a joint

one of the previous posters mentioned that it was the logging companies who got hemp banned...why?
because the logging companies owns the forests and it takes 20 years to grow a tree to supply the same fibre as a field of hemp can supply in 6 months! so God forbid...do NOT let the common folk get a hold on hemp production...it might just solve most of our needs!

Paul

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #71 on: July 23, 2008, 01:15:17 AM »
Nice post.

So, lemme ask you guys a question. Let's say you were on vacation somewhere and you happened to come across a mushroom or peyote ceremony, and you were curious what it would be like to trip. Would it be against God to engage in the experience?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 01:17:25 AM by Paul »

Offline Molly

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #72 on: July 23, 2008, 01:18:10 AM »
It would be against common sense.

Why put something in your mouth when you can't predict the outcome and the worst case scenario is madness or death?

Paul

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #73 on: July 23, 2008, 01:23:43 AM »
You can't overdose on shrooms or peyote. Anti-drug organizations won't even say you can.

They don't make you go insane, either. Why do you insist on believing these false assumptions and urban legends?

It's because you just can't believe that the mechanism of action of these drugs is positive. You view the experience like it's huffing paint thinner.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 01:27:28 AM by Paul »

Offline Molly

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Re: Why did God make drugs?
« Reply #74 on: July 23, 2008, 01:30:23 AM »
You can't?  Why is everyone getting violently ill in those stories and throwing up?  Some go into the hospital.

I tried morphine the other day.  Food poisoning, a night of gagging, total dehydration and terrible cramping.  Emergency put me on intravenous fluids and morphine.

So I got to try it.  It didn't make the pain go away, it just put it in another room where I didn't care about it anymore.  And, I was finally able to sleep.

So I thank God he has given us such a miracle drug to handle what  is otherwise intolerable pain.  But I have no interest in going on it--for fun!  It wasn't really fun, it just stopped the pain from bothering me.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 04:02:36 AM by Molly »