Author Topic: Who lives - who dies?  (Read 14096 times)

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Offline reFORMer

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #225 on: November 10, 2009, 09:33:29 AM »
Sparrow,

Something about your post #220...

"Elect" is an English transliteration for the Greek eklekton meaning "chosen." Sometimes God gives a reason for it as in the case of Abraham.  He said He chose Abraham because He knew Abraham would teach so as to obey whatever God said to him to his children and grandchildren and so on, unto many generations.  For Jacob and Esau God says He chose Jacob and hated Esau before they had done anything good or bad in order to make His "Choosing" known.

You were concerned about a sense of fairness being violated if it meant some were "saved" by God choosing them and others lost because He didn't and that knowing it in the context of universal salvation resolved the problem.  It does mostly seem that it is not so much ultimate salvation that is in view when we consider God's choosing some and rejecting others.  Rather, it involves His role as the potter to create special vessels to be of service to affect humanity in His overall plan, some even chosen to be leaders in evil.

The point I wanted to make is that if anybody gets "there" ahead of anybody else, it is only to bring the rest in.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline sparrow

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #226 on: November 10, 2009, 09:47:59 AM »
Sparrow,

Something about your post #220...

"Elect" is an English transliteration for the Greek eklekton meaning "chosen." Sometimes God gives a reason for it as in the case of Abraham.  He said He chose Abraham because He knew Abraham would teach so as to obey whatever God said to him to his children and grandchildren and so on, unto many generations.  For Jacob and Esau God says He chose Jacob and hated Esau before they had done anything good or bad in order to make His "Choosing" known.

You were concerned about a sense of fairness being violated if it meant some were "saved" by God choosing them and others lost because He didn't and that knowing it in the context of universal salvation resolved the problem.  It does mostly seem that it is not so much ultimate salvation that is in view when we consider God's choosing some and rejecting others.  Rather, it involves His role as the potter to create special vessels to be of service to affect humanity in His overall plan, some even chosen to be leaders in evil.

The point I wanted to make is that if anybody gets "there" ahead of anybody else, it is only to bring the rest in.



I think you may have repeated what I just said.
But I'm not sure.  :happygrin: 

About God choosing some to be leaders in evil.
I'm not so sure about that. That leads into the whole "free will" discussion though, which is kind of off-limits around here. (understandably so.)

Peace, brother..  :HeartThrob:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #227 on: November 10, 2009, 10:10:33 AM »
I think that there will be those who are decieved and those who are not. But I think it's all in God's plan. I see the elect as NOT being decieved. Who are the elect? The people who ended up not being decieved for whatever reason.
More precise. Not anymore. (my understanding)

Quote
Whoever this "elect" are, God has made them the elect for a reason. Some claim to be the "elect". But how can they know for sure? I believe only God knows the answer.
So basicly you find out after death.


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  :dontknow: Perhaps someone can give proof that folks can know. I haven't researched it all the way. I just see this verse of the elect being decieved "IF it were possible" and think that the elect don't know who they are. Because if they knew who they were, then that verse wouldn't have the same effect. Push on and run this race.... but I tend to believe only God knows who His various groups of people are. God has his reasons for selecting certain people. Afterall, look at his disciples. It's all happening to teach us ALL. All will benefit from God's master plan.
Could be wrong but I think Ray Smith teaches the saints can eb deceived. The elect not. But many/all elect once were deceived (left their first love)and saw their house crashing down. Gotta look it up tonite.


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I believe that God is love. He tells us that He is love. The fruits of the spirit:
Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
I think taking things and measuring them against the yardstick of love is key.
And you can bet satan is poluting that yardstick.

Quote
Going to God and praying for guidance. Listening for His voice, and pushing away your own voice. Listening to your gut. There are things that tickle the ears of your carnal man, and there are things that align with your spirit. Learning to discern is a process. Perhaps it's not the same for everyone. The more you lean into love and lean away from non-love, the more you develop discernment, in my opinion.
You are not gonna like this Sparrow.... how do you know you received your training from the Spirit of Light and not from the dark one?
"....but Lord we prophesised in Your Name..."

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sparrow

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #228 on: November 10, 2009, 10:24:30 AM »
You are not gonna like this Sparrow.... how do you know you received your training from the Spirit of Light and not from the dark one?
"....but Lord we prophesised in Your Name..."



Because going to back to what I was saying before, if it makes me love others, if it pushes others to the forefront. If it makes love blossom more fully in my heart towards God, towards my neighbor (which is all mankind) and towards His creation.

"Lord we prophesised in Your name..."

Yes... what name again?
God?
Who is God?
God is love.

There are many people who are decieved regarding the very character of God.
There are many who proclaim to be doing the works of God, yet they defame the very character of God by the things they preach about Him. That God is a monster who would torture human beings.
I believe this is what is being referred to when it is said "Depart from me, I never knew you..."
People who think they KNOW God, yet they have very dark hearts who have little love for their neighbor. They have a wall around their heart.


Like I said, the main core issue, the character of God, I know I am not decieved.
Because of the amazing love He has conjured up in my heart.
By the very fact that He has brought me through things such as having love for my enemies.
Forgiveness for those that hurt me and my loved ones. and allowing me to see them not through the eyes of carnal anger, carnal unforgiveness, but through His eyes of love and forgiveness and mercy. This was no easy feat. This was no minor hurdle.


"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #229 on: November 10, 2009, 10:30:37 AM »
"Lord we prophesised in Your name..."

Yes... what name again?
A name that, weirdly enough, is barely mentioned in the Bible...
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Gab

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #230 on: November 10, 2009, 10:32:27 AM »
WW, on one had I agree with you that we can basically never know with absolute certainty that what we are doing is the will of God and that we have not been deceived (we can fool ourselves into a sense of certainty, but that's rather different).  But, on the other hand, it is obviously impossible for us to do the will of God if we do nothing out of perpetual paralyzing fear that we might be in error.  True absolute certainty is basically unobtainable in practice - I don't even know that the sun will come up in the morning, but I nonetheless manage to function in life, because I accept that I might later learn that I have been wrong about something, and I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

At a certain point, I think that we just have to accept that we can only do what we can do, and that we can do nothing more - and that if we find we were in error, then God will correct us in the end.  If I have been deceived, then so be it - that possibility ought not stop me from earnestly trying to interact with sincere love with everyone I meet.

Offline sparrow

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #231 on: November 10, 2009, 10:34:55 AM »
Gab... I think we see it pretty much the same way.
Especially your last sentence.

"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Gab

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #232 on: November 10, 2009, 11:06:42 AM »
Gab... I think we see it pretty much the same way.
Especially your last sentence.

Yep - but I figure it never hurts to add a voice of agreement into the mix. :wink2:

Offline rosered

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #233 on: November 10, 2009, 01:12:47 PM »

 
  good thoughts guys ,
  Gab , your blessing  !!   your so right on that , scriptures says we deceive our" own hearts"

  none  to blame  that on !  if we simply   hear and do  as the Lord's holy command  in His   Word teaches us   , to love , help and put others needs  above our own , to me the fatherless   in the literal sense is easy  to understand  , the fatherlless  in the spiritual sense is  those who have not   a father  figure as Paul said he had become   mature to teach / preach and comfort those  lost ones on the way ,  sharing  Gods word  though  the Holy Spirit's prompting  , so the  to would be adopted/ joined /  reborn /acess   into  to the heavenly Father  :icon_flower:
  same as the widows   / the helpless losing husband  / by law,     that support 
and need ,  many that come out of Babylon  ,  need this  support and  new 
  union  to Christ same as the little children .
 
Jam 1:22   But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 
 Jam 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridles not his tongue, but deceives his own heart, this man's religion [is] vain.  Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this,

 To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.
  says no man can bridle the tongue  , only the Lord  Jesus Christ can do this work !
  there is alot more  to it , but  I cannot go into that right now .. :bigGrin:
 
  :HeartThrob: rose
 

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #234 on: November 10, 2009, 05:02:58 PM »
In all these types and previews we can see a glorious picture of the Latter Days. A time of harvest is coming, a great outpouring of blessing and love and power and glory will be upon the saints. Not an outpouring from heaven, but an out-pouring from the innermost being of God's matured ones, His HARVEST COMPANY, as mighty Niagaras of Living Water gush forth, a tremendous outflowing from the very Fountain-Head of the Rivet of God which will send streams of salvation into all the world. It will be a time of deliverance and blessing and transformation such as we have never known. God will "tabernacle" with His people in a new and glorious way, and will be manifested in their midst with such power that the whole world will know it. He will make a great Feast, and all who respond to the invitation will be welcome at His table. The latter-day Harvest of Ingathering will be reaped from the entire world. All nations will participate in His Feast of Tabernacles. The mountain of the Lord's house shall be exalted above every other mountain.

"The redeemed of the Lord shall return and come with singing unto Zion" (Isa. 51:11). Joel, Micah, Isaiah, Zechariah, the Psalms, and other prophecies have given us the picture of the glory of the Latter House and of the fruitful Latter Day. "Then was our mouth filled with laughter, and our tongue with singing: then said they among the heathen, The Lord hath done great things for them ... He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing His sheaves with him" (Ps. 126). "Let the people praise Thee, O God; let ALL the people praise Thee. O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for Thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon. earth. Selah. Let the people praise Thee, O God, let ALL the people praise Thee. Then shall the earth yield her increase; and God, even our own God shall bless us. God shall bless us; AND ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH SHALL FEAR HIM" (Ps. 67:3-7).

--J. Preston Eby

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #235 on: November 10, 2009, 06:19:39 PM »
WW, on one had I agree with you that we can basically never know with absolute certainty that what we are doing is the will of God and that we have not been deceived (we can fool ourselves into a sense of certainty, but that's rather different).  But, on the other hand, it is obviously impossible for us to do the will of God if we do nothing out of perpetual paralyzing fear that we might be in error.
I think doing nothing is an error too...

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True absolute certainty is basically unobtainable in practice - I don't even know that the sun will come up in the morning, but I nonetheless manage to function in life, because I accept that I might later learn that I have been wrong about something, and I will cross that bridge when I come to it.
I never even tried to suggest we ca get any certainty of anything.That's just my point. All accept that the majority will be deceived (or doesn't even try to find God)
But the majority of the believers claim they are on the right track. And (almost?) all believers that have contact with a spirit assume 'their spirt' is the HS and not a lying spirit. Often they have some proof to backup their claim to me.
God speaks/warns about a 'strong delusion'. Isn't the whole idea of a delusion it looks some extremely real. Especially if it's a strong one. (=(near) perfect. Finding proof to back things up can be part of the delusion.
It's a variation of the 'pointing finger' They are wrong/evil/fallen away/deceived/etc.
"I" is always the the 2% group of perfection and "them" always in the "98%" of loosers.
Because 98% is wrong there is a big change a lot of the "2%" is wrong too.

Quote
At a certain point, I think that we just have to accept that we can only do what we can do, and that we can do nothing more - and that if we find we were in error, then God will correct us in the end.  If I have been deceived, then so be it - that possibility ought not stop me from earnestly trying to interact with sincere love with everyone I meet.
I'm sure God looks more favourble on honest mistakes as on "never bothered to try".
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #236 on: November 10, 2009, 06:40:07 PM »
 :cloud9: Amen again, J. Preston.......the "problem" is, most have not been shown yet that there is a bride "company" of believers, and a bridegroom "company" (company as in an army) of believers, called the sons or mature ones of God.

The sons get caught up to the Father's house (us IN Christ) so at the appointed time they can be released to go get their "bride", ie. the rest of creation. This catching up begins with the baptism of the HG, the earnest of the son's inheritance, but eventually the son inherits all things and then it's time to go looking for a "wife" so he can produce heirs. Who shall declare His generation?

Song of Solomon is all about how the sons will treat their "wives", not condemning her because she is black but comely (darkened souls), but wooing her with pleasant words, telling her how beautiful she is to him (who she REALLY is, ie. speaking those things that are not as though they were = to PROPHESY over "her") and how precious.

So the Sonship message is basically the mechanics of HOW He intends to bring about UR; mere believing in it is not going to be enough, because faith without works is dead in God's economy. Sonship principles brought to FULL HARVEST/ FULL INHERITANCE, is the "works". For the heir/son as long as he is a child (not mature; not fully formed in His image yet), differeth nothing from a servant.......

Galatians 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.


God is doing the same pattern He did before; He does things AGAIN, as a WITNESS, and we are truly being made into a SECOND WITNESS.........for we were made of a woman/soul, under the law/letter understanding, for a season.....

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. 33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. 34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. 35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

We have only borne witness of John and a measure of Christ so far, because we have been in the mixture of the 2 days of Pentecost, eating of both grace and law (tree of good and evil), because the FULLNESS of the tree of life was withheld from from our understanding until we learned to choose the good and not the evil from His Spirit of Truth.

That fullness is to have both the Son AND the FATHER in full manifestation, which is why it says you can't have the Father without the Son, nor the Son without the Father; it's not only because they are one, but because He intends for us to be one as well, with a WITNESS to that fact. He comes to WITNESS the sons that are being raised to the FULL stature of the measure of Christ ( the FIRSTFRUITS Son), ie. that have been made a perfect, mature, or COMPLETE man.

Christ is the Seed of the Father's loins, and we are being made to be one with that Seed so that He can use us to "impregnate" the "bride company" and raise up and bring more sons (the bride company), unto glory, the glory of the only begotten Son, each man in his own order.

The order is not of timing only, but of NATURE. His other "sons", days 1-6, are to remain a mixture of darkness and light, until they too come into the glorious liberty of the sons of the God, made a perfect or complete man, ie. one with the 7th day which is Christ, no part darkness, who is witnessed by the Father Himself.

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Col. 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Joh 1:16 - And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Eph 3:19 - And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Eph 4:13 - Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


But the time is coming and now is, that the Father will withhold no good thing from His mature sons, who are being changed into His image via the twinkling of HIS eye. Noah found grace in His eyes, but we are becoming that grace to give to the nations, and the Father is going to witness His own, because an heir, HAS EVERYTHING THE FATHER HAS. Blessings.....
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 02:35:39 AM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #237 on: November 10, 2009, 06:55:45 PM »
The sons get caught up to the Father's house (us IN Christ) so at the appointed time they can be released to go get their "bride", ie. the rest of creation.
Aren't the believers the bride of Chist and the rest the guests at the wedding?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #238 on: November 10, 2009, 08:54:29 PM »
The sons get caught up to the Father's house (us IN Christ) so at the appointed time they can be released to go get their "bride", ie. the rest of creation.
Aren't the believers the bride of Chist and the rest the guests at the wedding?

John 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.


Beautiful, Cardinal!

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #239 on: November 10, 2009, 11:14:14 PM »

Yes, Card, beautiful!

A tremendous lie that has been put forth from Satan is that people must physically die to see heaven.
The word die in the NT usually does not refer to physical death.
And the word heaven has been defined by Hollywood and Hallmark in most people's minds than by the Word Himself.

Gab

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #240 on: November 11, 2009, 12:46:16 AM »
The word die in the NT usually does not refer to physical death.

Huh?  The Greek word thnesko (to die) is used nine times in the New Testament.  Eight times it is used to refer to physical death (Matthew 2:20, Mark 15:44, Luke 7:12, Luke 8:49, John 11:44, John 19:33, Acts 14:19, and Acts 25:19).  Only once is it used to refer to figurative death (1 Timothy 5:6).  One out of nine is not what I would call "usually"...

If you're instead referring to the Greek word thanatos (death, i.e., the noun), that's used more often (105 times in the New Testament), and unfortunately I don't have the time at the moment to sift through all 105 of them, but I do see a number of references to figurative death there, although I also see a number of references to physical death, too.

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #241 on: November 11, 2009, 03:52:01 AM »
3Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

---Galatians 4


"elements"

G4747
στοιχεῖον
stoicheion
stoy-khi'-on
Neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of G4748; something orderly in arrangement, that is, (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively): - element, principle, rudiment.


This really interests me, because it is saying that we are subject to the laws of nature, when we are children.


Quote from: Cardinal
Sonship principles brought to FULL HARVEST/ FULL INHERITANCE, is the "works". For the heir/son as long as he is a child (not mature; not fully formed in His image yet), differeth nothing from a servant.......

The works were always the works of Christ.  No Christ--no faith---no works.   The mature heir/son will do the mature works of Christ [and greater things then he did, although I'm not quite sure why that would be--maybe because he will be doing the works of the resurrected Christ?]--supernatural healings, loaves and fishes, walking through walls into rooms, appearing and disappearing at the place of your choice---because he will no longer be subject to the orderly laws of nature, just as Jesus was not.

The apostles themselves experienced a lot of these works, out of season.  Peter's shadow would heal crowds, Phillip translated from one place to another, Paul raised one from the dead --it was how they were able to spread the gospel so far in their natural lifetimes.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 03:57:44 AM by Molly »

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #242 on: November 11, 2009, 04:02:14 AM »
Amazing isn't Molly?
And the 12 were not walking in full manifestation as Sons.
The greater works will be because the Sons will be walking in the full Resurrection power of Christ Jesus, just as He did after the cross.

Offline Raggedy Anne

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #243 on: November 11, 2009, 10:59:28 AM »
The word die in the NT usually does not refer to physical death.

Huh?  The Greek word thnesko (to die) is used nine times in the New Testament.  Eight times it is used to refer to physical death (Matthew 2:20, Mark 15:44, Luke 7:12, Luke 8:49, John 11:44, John 19:33, Acts 14:19, and Acts 25:19).  Only once is it used to refer to figurative death (1 Timothy 5:6).  One out of nine is not what I would call "usually"...

If you're instead referring to the Greek word thanatos (death, i.e., the noun), that's used more often (105 times in the New Testament), and unfortunately I don't have the time at the moment to sift through all 105 of them, but I do see a number of references to figurative death there, although I also see a number of references to physical death, too.

Thank you, Gab.   

Anne
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You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #244 on: November 11, 2009, 04:44:13 PM »
 :cloud9: I thought this comment from a FB friend of mine was especially interesting, and as it goes with this discussion........Blessings....

"In the New Testament, the Greek word used for DEATH is THANATOS, and for DEAD, NEKRON, meaning without life, or lifeless. People describe death in various ways. Some call it a separation from life or from consciousness; others call it a sleep with a suspended consciousness.

These descriptions sound very suitable, but they do not get to its root ...  Basically death is a conscious separation from God. We are in death even while we live in the flesh, if we are unconscious of spiritual realities. As long as we are only conscious of natural things, we are in death."
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #245 on: November 11, 2009, 09:58:55 PM »
Thank you, Card.

Dave

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #246 on: November 12, 2009, 12:13:30 AM »
:cloud9: I thought this comment from a FB friend of mine was especially interesting, and as it goes with this discussion........Blessings....

"In the New Testament, the Greek word used for DEATH is THANATOS, and for DEAD, NEKRON, meaning without life, or lifeless. People describe death in various ways. Some call it a separation from life or from consciousness; others call it a sleep with a suspended consciousness.

These descriptions sound very suitable, but they do not get to its root ...  Basically death is a conscious separation from God. We are in death even while we live in the flesh, if we are unconscious of spiritual realities. As long as we are only conscious of natural things, we are in death."

I'm not really sure what this has to do with the words themselves, though.  Thanatos and nekron both refer to death in the standard sense, i.e., physical death where the body is no longer alive.  It's not as though these words exist only in the New Testament; they're part of the common Greek language of the time at which Jesus lived.  The writings in the New Testament were written such that the common folk would be able to read and understand them, as evidenced by the writers' usage of Koine Greek.  For that reason I tend to be very wary of attempts (and I know of a lot of them) to special-case the Bible in terms of the definitions one provides for the language used therein.

One can certainly argue in favor of the figurative use of these words in the New Testament, but I don't think that the words themselves provide any evidence to that end.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #247 on: November 12, 2009, 02:23:12 AM »
I believe it was Eby that somewhere brought out a study in the course of whatever it was (I'd look into his book on the priesthood in the part about the Melchizedek order) that there are 5 ways the N.T. uses the word death.  I can immediately think of "I die daily" "As many as were baptized into Christ were baptized into His death," which are at least 2 forms of death that are not in themselves physical discorporation.

How about one I may be somewhat misquoting, I know I had trouble looking it up recently, "Through the cross of ChristI am a dead thing to the world and the world is dead to me..."(?)
« Last Edit: November 12, 2009, 02:26:30 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #248 on: November 12, 2009, 08:02:09 PM »
 :cloud9: I decided to post this here as we are discussing the "ins and outs" of the feast of Tabernacles. Here is some understanding He has given me on part of it. He calls it the feast of TABERNACLES for a reason.

He's making us a feast of FAT things = those that have not been circumcised
by the processing of the work that is inherent in tabernacles. This is in Isaiah 25 or 26 I believe.

This ties in with the bones Ezekial saw.
Bones without meat on them = first veil of our flesh laid down.
DRY bones=those that have laid down the Christ veil of His flesh (because Spirit is water/life of them).

Where He makes "fat" our bones is where He puts the glorified word/flesh back on them, ie. that which has been thru the fire of the fullness of the Holy Ghost/Father, after laying down the "flesh" of Christ.

Now let me explain what that means. We were called out into the wilderness here to "die", and be made of no reputation, taking on the image of sinful flesh, or being made conformable to His death.

For most of us, if not all of us, we look like we've lost our minds, our salvation, aren't really Christians,ect. to the outside world, because we are not worshiping Him in the confines of Babylonian confusion anymore. And so we "laid down" the "image" of Him, but not the reality of Him in our lives and hearts. Just the opposite, in fact.

This is why the fat was an offering only for God the Father,and why we were told not to eat the fat of an animal in dietary laws (aside from making you sick). The fat (think about it--fat is above what is needed; as oil that has congealed, not flowing, LAID UP).

This is representative of the wisdom of the Spirit which is Christ, that is hidden in the
uncircumcised (definition of gentiles NOW) that cannot be a light without the fire of the Holy Ghost consuming it. Uncircumcised ones, meaning those that have the wheat and the tares together still, that must still go thru the cleansing fire of the Holy Ghost (in the HARVEST, He will send His angels and they will GATHER up.....= Math. 13).

WE ARE becoming the lake of fire they get cast in, as the Father consumes US, LOL :).
Without THIS FIRE being the one to do it, trying to consume this fat is as offering up
strange fire, which is what you see happening to those that think it's ok to consume other things outside the Word, APART FROM THE LEADING OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

With the Spirit leading, no harm can come, for the tares are burned/consumed in the fire, REFINED in the refiner's fire, leaving the life of Spirit which is Christ hidden in the people this pertains to, revealed by cleansing, distilled like wine.

It's the same as refining gold, where the dross (doctrines without life) is consumed, but the gold (higher nature of God revealed, ie. revelations of the Word that IS life and Spirit) is retained.

They SHALL PICK UP serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing it will not hurt them.
When God told Moses to CAST DOWN His rod of authority = veil of Christ's flesh as it pertains to coming outside the camp and dying, ie. laying down of all,  it then took on the IMAGE OF SINFUL FLESH, but it CONSUMED the serpent natures of the uncircumcised Egyptians (flesh),

And then the Lord God told Him to pick it back up ie. after suffering with Him, we are glorified with Him = MIRACLES to set ALL creation free. He did His first miracle at Cana, which runs into word used in Psalms (I believe it was) that means "possessor of heaven and earth" ie. the ALmighty God, the Father God that is in our new
heaven/glorified Christ AND our new earth/glorified body. This is why it says, God was IN Christ reconciling all men unto Himself.

This rod of Moses, ties in with the PICKING UP (catching up) of the TWELVE BASKETS OF FRAGMENTS = 12 tribes of humanity He "fragmented" Himself in, after the 5 (grace ministered thru ministry of 5 fold) fishes and 2 loaves (witness of Son and Spirit together = inner court) dispensation has ENDED. It is time for the Father to come on the scene, and FULFILL the promise with HIMSELF.

Additionally, look up word for lake and it runs into haven, which in the Hebrew means among other things, "to cover"(as in the blood of the Christ that is laid down now thru the laying down of the flesh of Him, has the POWER to cover or expiate THEIR sins), and runs into word meaning "to enclose" (as in, a garden enclosed is my sister, my spouse) and also, compassionate, pity, regard, spare, and protection.

It also runs into word that means to stroke, erase to smooth (as with oil), grease or make FAT, blot out, full of marrow.

If you go to Ephesians 1:7 it says we are set FREE by the DEATH of CHRIST. And 2Cor.4:4 the word image, as in Christ made in the image of God runs into word that means "GOAT".

His image is one of life thru sacrificial death, and Paul prayed to know what is the power of His resurrection, that he might be conformed into the IMAGE OF HIS
DEATH, that he might by any means, ATTAIN THE RESURRECTION.

John 7:10 -But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.

Starting with the above, the feast He went to in secret in this passage, was literally the feast of Tabernacles.....and so too does He do this thing in secret with us spiritually, because it is unobservable, unlike Passover and Pentecost, and is typified by the fact the High Priest went in ALONE into the Holy of Holies.

Job 12:22 -He discovereth deep things out of darkness, and bringeth out to light the shadow of death.

If you understand what's below that I shared first, pertaining to what this "darkness" IS, ie. the ones holding Christ in UNrighteousness, the wisdom hidden in the UNcircumcized of heart.

1Kings 8:12 -Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.

God hid Himself in the last place man would ever think to look......IN MAN.

Daniel 2:22 - He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.

Isa 45:3 -And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.


    These treasures of darkness and hidden riches are none other than the wealth of the WICKED held up (RESERVED IN HEAVEN/Christ IN them) for the just (us), ie. those that have followed Him to celebrate Tabernacles.

Carnal man thought the wealth was material goods or gold and silver (and He can and will bring that also once we are fully one with the Head from whom all blessing flow, which is the purpose of this feast), but the true riches are wisdom in Christ, for wisdom is more valuable than rubies.

2Samuel 22:12 - And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies.

That Hebrew word pavilions there is the same as TABERNACLES.

Thought I'd better add a "natural practical" word about how this is working in us. Have you ever received the LIFE of His Spirit speaking to you either out of the writings of others, or even out of others who are not Christian?

Then you are "eating" or consuming the riches laid up for the just. He is turning their water into wine for you, distilling out of them the new wine of the Kingdom which is Spirit contained in flesh. Blessings.....




« Last Edit: November 12, 2009, 10:09:04 PM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #249 on: November 12, 2009, 10:49:41 PM »
Wonderful Post Card!
And to address the "natural/practical" aspect I have to add that that happens to me constantly. Constantly.
I am being taught from every which way and from where and when I least expect it.
Contacts I have everyday, whether they be friends, strangers, radio, TV and print, and nature itself are all speaking the Word of the Lord.