Author Topic: Who lives - who dies?  (Read 12292 times)

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Offline reFORMer

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #200 on: November 09, 2009, 09:03:29 AM »
A long life or to simply continue alive was mentioned by Jesus. Some then thought He was referring to John.  "Jesus said to Peter, "If I want him to live until I come again, how does that concern you? Follow me!" (John 21:22, AV)  At least 2,000 years would be in view there as is true of Solomon's mention of it.

Ecclesiastes 6:3-6 (AV)...
3 If a man beget an hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he.
4 For he cometh in with vanity, and departeth in darkness, and his name shall be covered with darkness.
5 Moreover he hath not seen the sun, nor known any thing: this hath more rest than the other.
6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

Faith for a long life or to simply continue living is not the same as faith for the transfiguration of the body. (It seems there might be a better possibility of attaining physical immortality if one lives longer, as long as God was being sought after.)

Hebrews 11:5-6 (AV)...
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

The point at which both kinds of faith agree is that the enemy is death and, as Paul says, we are in a race to come to the finish (mature, perfect) line before death.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2009, 09:09:01 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #201 on: November 09, 2009, 09:06:03 AM »
The last great Feast of the Israelite year was Tabernacles ... and startling as it might seem, this is the Feast that remains to be fulfilled! Tabernacles is called "the Feast of Ingathering, which is in the END OF THE YEAR." Pentecost is only the firstfruits of the Spirit, but Tabernacles is the full harvest - FULLNESS!
Actually it's not fullness. The land was never harvested to the last wheat. Not harvesting and then double checking the land for some wheat that fell on the ground. Neither they harvested the corners (not 100% sure of that) That wheat was collected by the very poor and travelers. AFAIK that was a commandment from God. Or just a law of Moses?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #202 on: November 09, 2009, 09:08:29 AM »
In 1 Thes 4:17, for KJV "caught up together" it is harpazo hama meaning "possessed together" or "siezed simultaneously."  Often the translators add words like "up" or "away," as in, "caught UP," or, "snatched AWAY," misleading words that are definitely NOT in the original language. Harpazo simply means to "to seize (as ones own.)"

Paul was "harpazo-ed," or, "possessed" by the Holy Spirit into the 3rd heaven and also entered Paradise (which may not be the same thing) while still alive, though he didn't know if the experience was as a spirit out of the body or if he was in his body, clearly meaning that it could happen either way. (While the phrase "go to heaven" is not in the Bible, this is the only place I know of where the idea occurs, though it is different than what is usually meant.)

From baptizing the Eunuch, an authority in the Ethiopian Court, Phillip was "harpazo-ed" or, "taken possession of" by God and was transported 3 days journey to Azotes, showing time and space can be superseded by us when God "seizes us as His own."  The raised dead first, then we that are alive and remain (that have not already entered into immortality) shall be "harpazo-ed" together with the Lord in the clouds, not to come back later, but, "So shall we ever be with the Lord" because what we enter into, immortality, we shall never come out of. It is not about a geographical relocation, but a transformation of being through union with God.

Concerning the only place in the N.T. where harpazo is done by men rather than God, William Hendriksen in his New Testament Commentary, Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew translates Mt 11:12:  "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom is pressing forward vigorously, and vigorous men are eagerly taking possession of it."  In Greek, the kind of men here is another word that occurs nowhere else in the N.T.  They are vigorous and "forceful men," men of courage, fortitude and determination.  Here, rather than God seizing us, courageous and determined men eagerly "harpazo" the kingdom of God.

This whole post--Yes!!!

Notice also how God is raising the dead in Christ, first--

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


--1Thess 4



"shall be caught up"

G726
ἁρπάζω
harpazō
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).


G138
αἱρέομαι
aihreomai
hahee-reh'-om-ahee
Probably akin to G142; to take for oneself, that is, to prefer. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate (ἕλλομαι hellomai), which is otherwise obsolete: - choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate hellomai, hel-lom-ahee; which is otherwise obsolete.


1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;








Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #203 on: November 09, 2009, 09:21:51 AM »
The last great Feast of the Israelite year was Tabernacles ... and startling as it might seem, this is the Feast that remains to be fulfilled! Tabernacles is called "the Feast of Ingathering, which is in the END OF THE YEAR." Pentecost is only the firstfruits of the Spirit, but Tabernacles is the full harvest - FULLNESS!
Actually it's not fullness. The land was never harvested to the last wheat. Not harvesting and then double checking the land for some wheat that fell on the ground. Neither they harvested the corners (not 100% sure of that) That wheat was collected by the very poor and travelers. AFAIK that was a commandment from God. Or just a law of Moses?

I think he means fullness in the sense of full maturity or ripeness [of the crop] [as opposed to firstfruits].

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #204 on: November 09, 2009, 09:25:34 AM »
But if you link the harvests to the UR message: "All are saved but each in his own order"
It means that after the last message there are still some unsaved wheats/people/souls.....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #205 on: November 09, 2009, 12:56:34 PM »
:cloud9: Hi Jenna.....no, actually I'm not. What he wrote is a WITNESS to what the SPIRIT already taught me. And as for one man; hardly. I know dozens of kingdom ministers who have been shown the same. Blessings.....
Blessings to you too, Cardinal. I think I'm just going to gracefully bow out of this conversation. But I must make one final comment. I may seem a little blunt and harsh, although I don't mean to. But you may want to seriously consider the nature of the spirit that has taught you this, because it doesn't seem to be a holy one.

(If I offend, that isn't my intention. I don't really know how to get my point across otherwise. I don't believe this belief comes from God.) :sigh:

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #206 on: November 09, 2009, 02:42:01 PM »
Quote from: Sparrow
Because there are plenty of ministers who share their visions, and I tell you one thing, I don't know who the vision came from, but it certainly isn't from the God that I know. 

What 'vision' are you referring to, Sparrow?

No vision in particular. Ministers/preachers, etc. who have visions and then share them saying they are from God. There are plenty of ministers who have their flock hanging on every word they say because they think their Minister has some sort of power or annointing that they don't. Cardinal listed some "kingdom ministers". It reminded me of the fact that we all need to have discernment and not blindly listen to man without questioning. But instead listen to and lean on  God. I'm not saying people don't have visions. I'm saying have discernment and don't just accept what someone has to say just because they say something is from God or God told them this and that. Don't just automatically accept it. Lots of stuff people say is from God and it isn't at all.

Discernment is key.
That's the point I'm trying to make.


peace.

 :cloud9: And I actually agree with you Sparrow........which is why I closed myself off with God and a Bible for 2 years of 12-16 even 18 hours a day of study in the original languages, and asked His Spirit to teach me and NOT MAN, the first 2 years of my walk, It was only AFTER He had shown me these truths that I found out He had shown others.

I didn't know who to believe either, but when I read His Spirit would teach you, I stood on that scripture, not even knowing at the time, if any of the Bible was true, save the one about salvation I had already experienced. Experience is the key. We EXPERIENCE the Spirit in many ways, and that is something no man can ever change your mind about, or feed you another doctrine about, because what HE makes life in you, no man can take away. My  :2c: Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #207 on: November 09, 2009, 02:55:14 PM »
In 1 Thes 4:17, for KJV "caught up together" it is harpazo hama meaning "possessed together" or "siezed simultaneously."  Often the translators add words like "up" or "away," as in, "caught UP," or, "snatched AWAY," misleading words that are definitely NOT in the original language. Harpazo simply means to "to seize (as ones own.)"

Paul was "harpazo-ed," or, "possessed" by the Holy Spirit into the 3rd heaven and also entered Paradise (which may not be the same thing) while still alive, though he didn't know if the experience was as a spirit out of the body or if he was in his body, clearly meaning that it could happen either way. (While the phrase "go to heaven" is not in the Bible, this is the only place I know of where the idea occurs, though it is different than what is usually meant.)

From baptizing the Eunuch, an authority in the Ethiopian Court, Phillip was "harpazo-ed" or, "taken possession of" by God and was transported 3 days journey to Azotes, showing time and space can be superseded by us when God "seizes us as His own."  The raised dead first, then we that are alive and remain (that have not already entered into immortality) shall be "harpazo-ed" together with the Lord in the clouds, not to come back later, but, "So shall we ever be with the Lord" because what we enter into, immortality, we shall never come out of.  Our aim is not some relocation in space or a better hope in death,but a transformation of being through union with God.  It is to have Christ fully formed in us and to fully come into the Image of God. This is not only as individuals, but corporately. "...till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown (finished, perfect) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Eph 4:13)

Concerning the only place in the N.T. where harpazo is done by men rather than God, William Hendriksen in his New Testament Commentary, Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew translates Mt 11:12:  "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom is pressing forward vigorously, and vigorous men are eagerly taking possession of it."  In Greek, the kind of men here is another word that occurs nowhere else in the N.T.  They are vigorous and "forceful men," men of courage, fortitude and determination.  Here, rather than God seizing us, courageous and determined men eagerly "harpazo" the kingdom of God.

 :cloud9: Love all your posts, ReFORMer.......I was harpazo'ed of the Lord once and went ahead in time two days to do something, He had told me that day to do that was a pivotal thing in my life. I prayed to loose my Spirit to go forth and do the perfect will of my Father beforehand, because the flesh of me was having some issues with it (doesn't it always?).

I didn't know He was going to do that LITERALLY. I guess it was a case of whatsover thing you ask in my name, it shall be done for you of my Father which is in heaven.
 
I was aware of my body, aware it was Friday and not Wednesday, but that was about it. I spoke what had been given me and that was that........Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #208 on: November 09, 2009, 03:11:17 PM »
:cloud9: Hi Jenna.....no, actually I'm not. What he wrote is a WITNESS to what the SPIRIT already taught me. And as for one man; hardly. I know dozens of kingdom ministers who have been shown the same. Blessings.....
Blessings to you too, Cardinal. I think I'm just going to gracefully bow out of this conversation. But I must make one final comment. I may seem a little blunt and harsh, although I don't mean to. But you may want to seriously consider the nature of the spirit that has taught you this, because it doesn't seem to be a holy one.

(If I offend, that isn't my intention. I don't really know how to get my point across otherwise. I don't believe this belief comes from God.) :sigh:

 :cloud9: Thank you for what I KNOW is your well-meaning concern, Jenna.  :girlheart:

I will use a standard answer He gave me years ago, to illustrate my point.

When they told me there was no such thing as being saved, I replied, too late, I've already experienced the truth!

When they told me there was no such thing as the baptism in the Spirit, I replied, too late, I've already experienced truth!

When they told me there was no such thing as the gifts of the Spirit for TODAY, I replied, too late, I've already experienced the truth!

When they told me the Spirit would not teach me, I replied, too late, I've already experienced the truth!

When they told me He does not heal the body today, I replied, too late, I've already experienced the truth!

And I could go on and on and on, about all the errors men have tried to feed me over the years. But the same Spirit that taught me is the same Spirit that healed me of cancer, crushed elbow, 4 ruptured discs with accompanying paralysis, lung damage, ect. If I had listened, I literally would not be here.

The bottom line is men have taught us to keep cattle (works and doctrines tied to the flesh realm) from our youth, but the Spirit teaches us how to "slay" them and put them on the altar to be consumed by the fire. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline sparrow

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #209 on: November 09, 2009, 07:15:53 PM »
Quote from: Sparrow
Because there are plenty of ministers who share their visions, and I tell you one thing, I don't know who the vision came from, but it certainly isn't from the God that I know. 

What 'vision' are you referring to, Sparrow?

No vision in particular. Ministers/preachers, etc. who have visions and then share them saying they are from God. There are plenty of ministers who have their flock hanging on every word they say because they think their Minister has some sort of power or annointing that they don't. Cardinal listed some "kingdom ministers". It reminded me of the fact that we all need to have discernment and not blindly listen to man without questioning. But instead listen to and lean on  God. I'm not saying people don't have visions. I'm saying have discernment and don't just accept what someone has to say just because they say something is from God or God told them this and that. Don't just automatically accept it. Lots of stuff people say is from God and it isn't at all.

Discernment is key.
That's the point I'm trying to make.


peace.

 :cloud9: And I actually agree with you Sparrow........which is why I closed myself off with God and a Bible for 2 years of 12-16 even 18 hours a day of study in the original languages, and asked His Spirit to teach me and NOT MAN, the first 2 years of my walk, It was only AFTER He had shown me these truths that I found out He had shown others.

I didn't know who to believe either, but when I read His Spirit would teach you, I stood on that scripture, not even knowing at the time, if any of the Bible was true, save the one about salvation I had already experienced. Experience is the key. We EXPERIENCE the Spirit in many ways, and that is something no man can ever change your mind about, or feed you another doctrine about, because what HE makes life in you, no man can take away. My  :2c: Blessings....

Cardinal...   That is fine that you say you locked yourself up for most of the day for 2 years and studied, and asked His spirit to teach you. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to accept your truth as my truth.  A person could lock theirself up for 10 years/24 hours a day and still not get to truth. Many people say the very same things and yet they espouse very wrong ideas about God.


I know that we "experience" the spirit in many ways. I've shared some of my own personal things from time to time. But I don't expect people to just take my word for it that it was from God. I expect people to ponder and discern for theirselves.

I don't doubt that you feel you have truth. Cardinal, perhaps you do. Perhaps you don't.
I'm just making a point that no matter WHAT a person says, don't just follow blindly. No matter how fantastic a vision may seem, or what this person tells you they did to GET to truth, use your OWN discernment by leaning on God and going to HIM about it. Pray, humble yourself before Him and rely on HIM to bring you to truth in His own timing and in His own way.

There are a lot of folks out there who could be reading this discussion who may not realize this very important issue. I think it's a good reminder. Because like I said, man leads man astray all the day long. But HE never will.

Peace.



"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #210 on: November 09, 2009, 07:29:40 PM »
 :cloud9: Amen Sparrow.......which is why I say we should, ALL, PRESS IN, for He IS the Spirit of Truth. Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #211 on: November 09, 2009, 07:31:17 PM »
Sparrow and all other Spiriteers,

I agree with your last post. But how can anyone ever know the had contact with the HS and not a decieving spirit?
Perhaps it's a bit like NDEs then people advise to check it against scripture. Fine but with so many denominations it looks like everyone read the scripture differently. Satan is a very smart spirit. He doesn't wear a "I'm a liar" badge but a "I'm the HS badge"
Plus the way I see it those viosion also have info that's not in the Bible. So it can't be checked against the Bible.
 :dontknow:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sparrow

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #212 on: November 10, 2009, 05:38:28 AM »
Sparrow and all other Spiriteers,

I agree with your last post. But how can anyone ever know the had contact with the HS and not a decieving spirit?
Perhaps it's a bit like NDEs then people advise to check it against scripture. Fine but with so many denominations it looks like everyone read the scripture differently. Satan is a very smart spirit. He doesn't wear a "I'm a liar" badge but a "I'm the HS badge"
Plus the way I see it those viosion also have info that's not in the Bible. So it can't be checked against the Bible.
 :dontknow:

Great question, WW.
Just to warn you, I'm kind of thinking out loud here, so if my thoughts seem a bit unorganized please forgive me, bro.

I think about that verse Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

I think that there will be those who are decieved and those who are not. But I think it's all in God's plan. I see the elect as NOT being decieved. Who are the elect? The people who ended up not being decieved for whatever reason. Whoever this "elect" are, God has made them the elect for a reason. Some claim to be the "elect". But how can they know for sure? I believe only God knows the answer.  :dontknow: Perhaps someone can give proof that folks can know. I haven't researched it all the way. I just see this verse of the elect being decieved "IF it were possible" and think that the elect don't know who they are. Because if they knew who they were, then that verse wouldn't have the same effect. Push on and run this race.... but I tend to believe only God knows who His various groups of people are. God has his reasons for selecting certain people. Afterall, look at his disciples. It's all happening to teach us ALL. All will benefit from God's master plan.

The UR view perfectly puts this into the right perspective, while the ET view makes God look totally evil, choosing certain people to show truth to, and some to remain in darknesss and end up some of His children being annihilated or tortured for all eternity! Sheesh what a sicko God! The UR view makes all of that make perfect sense! We are all His children. We don't all have the same role. That's ok. If I end up being one of the decieved**... y'know what? THAT IS OK! because I know God used me for a specific reason. Every life lived will serve a purpose. Every life lived is a thread in His tapestry that He is weaving. This tapestry will be for OUR benefit. All of us. We are learning while we are here on earth, and when we see the BIG PICTURE, we will REALLY learn. But... still... push on, finish the race! Do the best that you can do to find truth and align with God's spirit. Some might say "well if I don't know if I'm being decieved or not, what is the point!!! What's the point in trying to learn??!" No! Don't think that way! PUSH ON! FINISH THE RACE! Seek! A lot of people are decieved because they allow themselves to be decieved. They aren't leaning into Him, they are leaning into theirself! Push on! Finish the race. Perhaps you may be surprised in the end, over just how much truth He ended up giving you in your life. Push on.


I believe that God is love. He tells us that He is love. The fruits of the spirit:
Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
I think taking things and measuring them against the yardstick of love is key.
(1 corinthians 13 is helpful.) I also think that getting down to the foundation of a set of beliefs and tearing it apart and examining it, where did it come from, what is it's purpose? And taking it all and measuring that against love, measuring against who God says He is (love) are things we should all be doing. Measuring things in this way may not seem so involved, until you really start to break it down and look at it. What is the core?

Take for instance, prosperity preachers. What are they promoting?? Materialism and GREED. Break down their beliefs to the foundation, and what do you have? A bunch of godly sounding words, theatrics, and cheerleading pumping up carnal man's lust for wealth. Forsaking the spiritual needs of their flock for earthly riches. Pushing aside the real message of Christ for a few gold coins. Look at how many followers they have. So many. Sowing the seeds of greed instead of sowing the seeds of love. And funny how so many of them have these fantastic tales, visions, supernatural experiences that somehow "prove" that God is more worried about their bank accounts than He is the state of their hearts. Sure there's some other nice sounding stuff thrown in, but then it's right back to "give and you will get!". You gotta have discernment. Listen to the voice within... who are these people talking to? Your carnal man or your spiritual man??

Going to God and praying for guidance. Listening for His voice, and pushing away your own voice. Listening to your gut. There are things that tickle the ears of your carnal man, and there are things that align with your spirit. Learning to discern is a process. Perhaps it's not the same for everyone. The more you lean into love and lean away from non-love, the more you develop discernment, in my opinion.

Some teachings are very easy to discern, some things you know right away, this is NOT RIGHT!
Other things are a little more convoluted and it takes awhile to get to the foundation of what the belief is. Then there are still OTHER things that are just... who the heck KNOWS what folks are talking about? Sometimes, you just have to let it go. Walk away.

In my own personal experience, God leaves breadcrumbs here and there. When the breadcrumbs are seemingly all over the place about something, and my heart and spirit feel totally alive and full of love and just all worries and fears completely dissapear and the love in my heart for Him, for my neighbor and for ALL creation just totally explodes...and I fade more into the background and the concern over others comes to the forefront then I feel that I am being led by HIM. and NOT by my own carnal self. If all these things are happening, THEN I feel I am being led by HIM.

Well, I don't feel I worded that all very well. But hopefully it made sense.
I don't like to be confusing.
These are my thoughts right now. Perhaps they will change later on down the line.
But this is where I am now.



** - disclaimer... I'm not talking about MAIN issues such as UR! I'm talking about being decieved about the lesser things. Just want to make that clear. I would absolutely gladly give up my life over the view that Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL mankind and that not even one will be lost.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 05:53:43 AM by sparrow »
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #213 on: November 10, 2009, 06:27:48 AM »
He has come in the foretaste of His omnipotence, working all through this present age in the hearts of the remnant, gathering out of each generation A FIRSTFRUITS, until the times of restitution. Then He shall be released, breaking forth in visible manifestation of the fullness of His nature, power and being, to begin the great work of restoring ALL THINGS back into God. How we yearn for that fullness! How our souls pant after Him! How we groan within ourselves, waiting for the glory that shall be revealed! He shall not remain forever withholden in the invisible sphere, but we shall RECEIVE OUT FROM the heavens, for He shall come to us, and in us, and out of the invisible shall proceed the visible manifestation, as the prophet foretold, "Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and HIS GLORY SHALL BE S-E-E-N_U-P-O-N_T-H-E-E. And the nations shall come to THY LIGHT, and kings to the brightness of thy rising" (Isa. 60:1-3).

Christ is not coming to evacuate His poor, discouraged, bedraggled, defeated Church to some distant planet to escape the ravages of the antichrist. HE, the Head of the Church, is coming in power and victory to His body, to assume the Headship and Lordship over the Church. When He was on earth He said, "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have their nests; but the Son of man hath no place to lay His head." I can assure you, beloved, that Jesus was not in the least concerned about a place to sleep at night! He was the Head, and He was perfect. But there was not a perfect body imbued with all the fullness of divine life, ready for His Lordship. There was no place prepared for His Lordship to rest, no body to put His Headship upon so that creation would see the completed Christ, Head and body, in the glory and dominion of perfection. So the Holy Spirit has been perfecting that body. He has been producing sonship. He has been making a place for the Son of man to PUT HIS HEAD.

--J. Preston Eby

Offline jabcat

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #214 on: November 10, 2009, 06:40:53 AM »

Still trying to understand/clarify some things.  Wouldn't it be cool if J. Preston would come on TM for awhile and answer some of these questions?  In the meantime, these are a couple of things I wondered about when I read this.

"He has come in the foretaste of His omnipotence, working all through this present age in the hearts of the remnant, gathering out of each generation A FIRSTFRUITS, until the times of restitution. Then He shall be released"

Those referenced as firstfruits from other generations have died a physical death.  How will they play their part if there's a group either now or in future generations that won't die, but will live 1,000+ years and/or take on immortality without either a) first tasting death themselves and being resurrected or b) alive at Christ's literal, physical return?  How will those from previous generations participate without resurrection?  Or maybe they will be resurrected to participate.  Thoughts on this?

"HE, the Head of the Church, is coming in power and victory to His body, to assume the Headship and Lordship over the Church. creation would see the completed Christ, Head and body, in the glory and dominion of perfection. So the Holy Spirit has been perfecting that body. He has been producing sonship. He has been making a place for the Son of man to PUT HIS HEAD."

If Jesus isn't literally present at some point, wouldn't we just see the body and not the Head?  Maybe the Head displayed THROUGH the body   :scratchhead:

Brother Eby, where are you?   :bigGrin:

« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 06:49:31 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #215 on: November 10, 2009, 06:45:34 AM »
Well, I don't feel I worded that all very well. But hopefully it made sense.

 

I think you worded it well, some things to think about, for sure.  I think we need to be constantly examining ourselves - did Paul talk about judging ourselves so we won't be judged, or something similar? 
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #216 on: November 10, 2009, 06:54:42 AM »
I wonder if we got about 10 good, solid questions together as a group, if Brother Eby would respond to an honest request regarding his writings?  I think he might, as long as they were sincere, respectful, and relevant.  Hmmmm....
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #217 on: November 10, 2009, 06:59:30 AM »
Quote from: Jab
Those referenced as firstfruits from other generations have died a physical death.  How will they play their part if there's a group either now or in future generations that won't die, but will live 1,000+ years and/or take on immortality without either a) first tasting death themselves and being resurrected or b) alive at Christ's literal, physical return?  How will those from previous generations participate without resurrection?  Or maybe they'll be resurrected.  Thoughts on this?

Wouldn't this apply to that?

14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

--1 Thess 4


Quote
If Jesus isn't literally present at some point, wouldn't we just see the body and not the Head?  Maybe the Head displayed THROUGH the body  

Isn't the head the mind of Christ?

I was thinking about Revelation, tonight.  John doesn't actually see Jesus, does he?  He sees 'one like unto to the Son of man.'  I've always thought that might be the corporate sonship he was seeing.  Otherwise, why would he put it that way?




10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

 11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

 12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

 13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

--Rev 1


Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #218 on: November 10, 2009, 07:02:32 AM »
Sparrow and all other Spiriteers,

I agree with your last post. But how can anyone ever know the had contact with the HS and not a decieving spirit?
Perhaps it's a bit like NDEs then people advise to check it against scripture. Fine but with so many denominations it looks like everyone read the scripture differently. Satan is a very smart spirit. He doesn't wear a "I'm a liar" badge but a "I'm the HS badge"
Plus the way I see it those viosion also have info that's not in the Bible. So it can't be checked against the Bible.
 :dontknow:

 :cloud9: You test the spirits and this is how. On the day of Pentecost, the men filled with the HG spoke about the marvelous works of God among men.

Principle: the spirit always exalts the one that sent it. It was said in Acts 2 by Peter that whom they crucified, shed forth this they both saw and heard.

So He sent it as He said He would, ie. the Comforter, who then exalted the One who sent it. The Spirit of God always exalts Christ who sent It. And by exalt, that doesn't only mean to lift up in praise, but to show forth His works, His patterns in the Word that point to Him, ect. Blessings....
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 07:08:11 AM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline jabcat

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #219 on: November 10, 2009, 07:06:12 AM »
Well Mol, I would think 1 Thess 4 addresses that, but I think I'm somewhere in the middle of some "orthodox" POVs along with newer revelations.  Sounds to me like this is describing Jesus' literal appearing which yes, could explain it to me.  But as I understand, some have been saying that won't occur (not positive if you personally think that or not).  :dontknow:

On the second part, I'm just not sure.  I don't really know what that means, "like unto the Son of Man".  My tendency is to think maybe he either wasn't positive, or could hardly believe it.  I'm not sure, you may be right.

Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #220 on: November 10, 2009, 07:08:01 AM »
... the spirit exalts the one that sent it. It was said in Acts 2 by Peter that whom they crucified, shed forth this they both saw and heard.

So He sent it as He said He would, ie. the Comforter, who then exalted the One who sent it. The Spirit of God always exalts Christ who sent It. And by exalt, that doesn't only mean to lift up in praise, but to show forth His works, His patterns in the Word that point to Him, ect. Blessings....

 Amen!  :2thumbs:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Raggedy Anne

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #221 on: November 10, 2009, 08:16:03 AM »
Take for instance, prosperity preachers. What are they promoting?? Materialism and GREED. Break down their beliefs to the foundation, and what do you have? A bunch of godly sounding words, theatrics, and cheerleading pumping up carnal man's lust for wealth. Forsaking the spiritual needs of their flock for earthly riches. Pushing aside the real message of Christ for a few gold coins. Look at how many followers they have. So many. Sowing the seeds of greed instead of sowing the seeds of love. And funny how so many of them have these fantastic tales, visions, supernatural experiences that somehow "prove" that God is more worried about their bank accounts than He is the state of their hearts. Sure there's some other nice sounding stuff thrown in, but then it's right back to "give and you will get!".

You gotta have discernment. Listen to the voice within... who are these people talking to? Your carnal man or your spiritual man??
Going to God and praying for guidance. Listening for His voice, and pushing away your own voice. Listening to your gut. There are things that tickle the ears of your carnal man, and there are things that align with your spirit. Learning to discern is a process. Perhaps it's not the same for everyone. The more you lean into love and lean away from non-love, the more you develop discernment, in my opinion.


Exactly, Sparrow -

Some of the things that seem like a no-brainer (the lies of the health and wealth gospel), and yet the numbers of followers they have are quite incredible.   And to think there are millions of people who consider themselves good Christian folk who listen to men like Michael Savage and Rush Limbaugh on talk radio -- it is just astonishing!   I guess I just find it mind-boggling that people are that insincere or hard-hearted or whatever the problem is - but they have to be, otherwise they'd not put up with such teachers.  And it just so happens that my son's best friend has recently joined a Word/Faith type of church and I have allowed my son to go there with him a few times, but I really don't want him going there.  My husband explained to him the problems with their theology and said we should let our son visit wherever he wants.  But something inside me is screaming NO!  Don't allow him to listen to such teachings!  My son (nearly age 15) tells me he 'knows' that all the churches have wrong teachings and that he can sort it out. 
What do you think?  Should I dictate where my children can visit in the way of churches?  I don't attend any church ever.   In recent years, my son and my youngest daughter were involved in a Methodist Youth group, which did not really worry me because Methodists are very mild and tolerant in general.

Thanks for reminding me to worry, Sparrow!  :sigh:

Anne
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You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #222 on: November 10, 2009, 08:28:45 AM »
What do you think?  Should I dictate where my children can visit in the way of churches?  I don't attend any church ever.   In recent years, my son and my youngest daughter were involved in a Methodist Youth group, which did not really worry me because Methodists are very mild and tolerant in general.

Thanks for reminding me to worry, Sparrow!  :sigh:

Anne

There was a quote that I quite liked, but can't for the life of me seem to find - but it went something like this:

"Lies need constant shielding in order to survive.  Truth needs no such help."

I tend to be rather permissive in my philosophy towards kids - they can be exceptionally resourceful, and generally speaking, the more you try to keep them away from something, the more psychologically tantalizing it becomes, and the more they will wonder just what it's all about.  I have found that the best way to deal with a lie is simply through the truth: allow the person to hear what the other person is saying, give them your own personal thoughts on the matter, and then let them figure things out.  If they end up believing the other person, then there was probably nothing you could have done to prevent that anyway, as one way or another the person was bound to hear about it at some point in time.  The bottom line for me is that a faith based purely on ignorance of the alternative can scarcely be called a faith at all.

Offline sparrow

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #223 on: November 10, 2009, 08:30:37 AM »
Y'know what Anne, this is just my opinion but I think you are doing the right thing by allowing your kids freedom to seek out and experience things. I tend to believe that if someone is working on developing a good foundation, the more beliefs you encounter, the better. Perhaps having a good discussion afterwards will open up the lines of communication and help your kids learn how to have discernment. What lucky kids they are that have a mom who would allow their kids to discover and find things on their own. But who is also helping to guide them and keep them on a good path. Seems like a lot of opportunities for discussion to me! and that's a good thing.
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline sparrow

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #224 on: November 10, 2009, 08:31:50 AM »
What do you think?  Should I dictate where my children can visit in the way of churches?  I don't attend any church ever.   In recent years, my son and my youngest daughter were involved in a Methodist Youth group, which did not really worry me because Methodists are very mild and tolerant in general.

Thanks for reminding me to worry, Sparrow!  :sigh:

Anne

There was a quote that I quite liked, but can't for the life of me seem to find - but it went something like this:

"Lies need constant shielding in order to survive.  Truth needs no such help."

I tend to be rather permissive in my philosophy towards kids - they can be exceptionally resourceful, and generally speaking, the more you try to keep them away from something, the more psychologically tantalizing it becomes, and the more they will wonder just what it's all about.  I have found that the best way to deal with a lie is simply through the truth: allow the person to hear what the other person is saying, give them your own personal thoughts on the matter, and then let them figure things out.  If they end up believing the other person, then there was probably nothing you could have done to prevent that anyway, as one way or another the person was bound to hear about it at some point in time.  The bottom line for me is that a faith based purely on ignorance of the alternative can scarcely be called a faith at all.

Amen! You hit the nail on the head.
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.