Author Topic: Who lives - who dies?  (Read 14475 times)

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Offline sparrow

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #175 on: November 09, 2009, 05:42:56 AM »
Cardinal... since you are posting, do you care to answer my question from earlier then:

Do you believe the believers who have not physically died will be raising people from graves? And will be spreading peace and health etc. to the rest of the world? Meaning, do you believe that God will be working through all of these people, IN THIS WAY, who didn't have to physically die? (Because we already know that God works through people NOW in other ways.) But now we are talking about literally RAISING people up out of literal GRAVES, not just "spiritual" graves. But actual coffins being dug up and dead people coming back to life. (or what have you, I'm not sure that is why I'm asking to get clarification.)



By the way, who are "kingdom ministers"? Can you name some so I know who you are talking about?

Thanks!

"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #176 on: November 09, 2009, 05:59:55 AM »
Sparrow, I'm beginning to think maybe all the specific answers  to some of these questions aren't yet fully known.  As I've said, I've read J.Preston for some time, and I still don't know whether or not he CLEARLY explains the things I just asked as well  :dontknow:.  I know he teaches God's people/the Manifest Sons having more power and abilities, but I don't really know what he says people will be SPECIFICALLY doing, what all that will EXACTLY look like.  I wonder if we have some ideas, but still yet, see through that glass darkly, on this topic as well as most/all others?

One thing I've thought about is, it seems the rapture folks put forth some REAL SPECIFIC postulations about the "end times"...you know, the Left Behind stuff, Jack Van Impe, etc....Right or wrong, whether they all agree or not, it does seem they present specific scenarios.  That's one thing I'm interested in from the other POV, like I asked a few posts ago about a "roadmap".  

So again, I think your question above is very connected to my "what does this look like/what will people actually be doing" questions.  If not flown away to heaven or hell, and we're all here on earth doing something, then...?  Maybe it's just not known fully yet and is more of an overview right now :dontknow:.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2009, 06:04:10 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #177 on: November 09, 2009, 06:01:38 AM »
A few excerpts from your last post Molly, and a few questions.  Anyone care to tackle?

1)  "...the END OF THE YEAR...very close of this present age"

When?  Soon?  A thousand years?  Does this tie into the scripture "no man knows the day or the hour when the Son of Man comes"?

Hi Jab........some thoughts........the end of the year was when the feast of Tabernacles took place. This was the "great feast" that was mentioned that He resisted the disciples telling Him to go with them, and then turned around and it said that He then WENT IN SECRET.

Tabernacles relates to the Holy of Holies, which time wise relates to the 1000 year day, which is the fullness of Christ. It is going behind the veil (in secret, ie. unobservable). This feast and it's conclusion is unto you and the Lord, one on one. We know that this day is after the conclusion of Pentecost. We have had 2 days or 1000 year ages of the Pentecost realm, and we are now in the dawning of the feast of Tabernacles, which IS being celebrated/fulfilled in the Spiritual realms, as was Passover and Pentecost before it.

 

2)"...JESUS IS COMING AGAIN! He is coming in the Feast of Tabernacles"

How?  What will that look like?  What will people be doing?  [I do believe in His manifesting within us, tabernacling with us, etc., but that that doesn't necessarily rule out His literal appearing at some point, and a literal New Jerusalem, new heaven and new earth as well - that it can't be both.  I wonder if absolute, exclusive adherence to either POV may leave out other realities of His coming(s) and our expierences in that - again, the spiritual AND (at least some) literal]


Again, it's unobservable. It is happening in the firstfruits harvest, between them and their God. The High Priest went in ALONE on the day of atonement. What that will look like to the rest, is as saviors arising on Mt. Zion in the fullness of His power. It's as a dream/vision He gave me of walking down an aisle and seeing a woman in a wheelchair and not laying hands to pray for her, but simply saying "Arise", and she jumped up healed and praising God, via the authority given the sons, over heaven/spirit and earth/flesh.


3)"... BLESSED are they who are called to this great Feast, As we leave this Feast in great strength, those who shall represent the Kingdom of God on this planet from that time forth will be abiding in the fullness of HIS RESURRECTION LIFE. It shall mean a new day of hope and deliverance and glory for the whole earth as the Lord COMES AGAIN to meet man in this great and glorious Feast of HIS FULLNESS."


Who is that?  The "few"?  If so, who are they?  And what will the rest be doing?

Every man in his own order, the same exact thing. First, the firstfruits, then the rest shall come into the glorious liberty of the sons of God. Blessings....


"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline jabcat

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #178 on: November 09, 2009, 06:11:54 AM »
OK, thanks Card for the specifics.  You said this is "one on one".  I can see how this could be if folks were living a thousand years or whatever.  But billions have already died.  What happens if in the normal lifespan someone dies before this happens?  What if Bob or Frank, who are true believers and following the Lord closely die at age 70?  The process continues in the next life?  

I figured the "each in his order" had a lot to do with the next age, God's direct presence...so not sure how the Manifest Sons enter in there.  Maybe the others are then resurrected and the Manifest Sons who never died are ministering to them?

Thanks.  :bigGrin:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #179 on: November 09, 2009, 06:15:48 AM »
Cardinal... since you are posting, do you care to answer my question from earlier then:

Do you believe the believers who have not physically died will be raising people from graves?
Hi Sparrow.......Jesus apparently did. I'm thinking they were probably glorified bodies and they too ascended to their Father as He did. And since He said greater works would we do, it stands to reason, this one and more.

And will be spreading peace and health etc. to the rest of the world? Meaning, do you believe that God will be working through all of these people, IN THIS WAY, who didn't have to physically die?

Yes, the harvest is of a many membered body that was just like His body. I do think God has some surprises planned that no one will know until it happens, because eye has not seen..........ect.

(Because we already know that God works through people NOW in other ways.) But now we are talking about literally RAISING people up out of literal GRAVES, not just "spiritual" graves. But actual coffins being dug up and dead people coming back to life. (or what have you, I'm not sure that is why I'm asking to get clarification.)

He can do anything He wants to. Whether or not it's a literal flesh body He raises up, or a glorified one, it's still a miracle. He raised up Lazarus apparently in his own body, so why it should be any shock that He might do it again, thru a people called by His name, I don't know.

By the way, who are "kingdom ministers"? Can you name some so I know who you are talking about?

I'm talking about people who have been shown truth pertaining to Sonship and Kingdom principles. Des Walters, Gary Sigler, Peter Demetris, Dale Hammond, Kelly Varner, Stacey Wood, Bill Britton, Willie Hinn, Dr. Kay Fairchild, Mark Chironna, Jim Dutton, to name a few. A couple of them are deceased, but their messages live on.

Thanks!


"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline sparrow

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #180 on: November 09, 2009, 06:25:46 AM »
Cardinal... since you are posting, do you care to answer my question from earlier then:

Do you believe the believers who have not physically died will be raising people from graves?
Hi Sparrow.......Jesus apparently did. I'm thinking they were probably glorified bodies and they too ascended to their Father as He did. And since He said greater works would we do, it stands to reason, this one and more.

And will be spreading peace and health etc. to the rest of the world? Meaning, do you believe that God will be working through all of these people, IN THIS WAY, who didn't have to physically die?

Yes, the harvest is of a many membered body that was just like His body. I do think God has some surprises planned that no one will know until it happens, because eye has not seen..........ect.

(Because we already know that God works through people NOW in other ways.) But now we are talking about literally RAISING people up out of literal GRAVES, not just "spiritual" graves. But actual coffins being dug up and dead people coming back to life. (or what have you, I'm not sure that is why I'm asking to get clarification.)

He can do anything He wants to. Whether or not it's a literal flesh body He raises up, or a glorified one, it's still a miracle. He raised up Lazarus apparently in his own body, so why it should be any shock that He might do it again, thru a people called by His name, I don't know.

By the way, who are "kingdom ministers"? Can you name some so I know who you are talking about?

I'm talking about people who have been shown truth pertaining to Sonship and Kingdom principles. Des Walters, Gary Sigler, Peter Demetris, Dale Hammond, Kelly Varner, Stacey Wood, Bill Britton, Willie Hinn, Dr. Kay Fairchild, Mark Chironna, Jim Dutton, to name a few. A couple of them are deceased, but their messages live on.

Thanks!




Thank you for clarifying your beliefs!


Quote
Yes, the harvest is of a many membered body that was just like His body.

You mean many believers who each have a glorified physical body like Jesus' body?
Is that what you mean?



Quote
He can do anything He wants to. Whether or not it's a literal flesh body He raises up, or a glorified one, it's still a miracle. He raised up Lazarus apparently in his own body, so why it should be any shock that He might do it again, thru a people called by His name, I don't know.
 

I don't think it's a shock at all that Jesus would do this.  But we are talking about people (on the earth now) who don't expect to die and who expect to raise people from their graves. I'm just asking for clarification on that belief. I'm not arguing against it, just trying to make sure I understand what folks believe. (Martin said something like "bring them to me!" talking about dead people. I think that caused some questions in folks minds as to what the heck he was talking about.)

Again, thank you for the clarification.
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #181 on: November 09, 2009, 06:26:52 AM »
OK, thanks Card for the specifics.  You said this is "one on one".  I can see how this could be if folks were living a thousand years or whatever.  But billions have already died.  What happens if in the normal lifespan someone dies before this happens?  What if Bob or Frank, who are true believers and following the Lord closely die at age 70?  The process continues in the next life?  

Hi Jab.......timing, election, and grace come into play here. The Lord has some to give out what they have received, only as a sort of "passing of the baton" to the next to come along, who will receive the Word with faith, and make it a little further in this run to the finish line. Bill Britton comes to mind here. He was shown this stuff in the late 30's or 40's if I recall, yet I believe His last message was, "I go to the Father", and shortly after, he did just that literally.

And I might add the greatest of these is the Apostle Paul who penned all this from the one on one teaching of the Holy Spirit in him, yet KNEW he was born a man out of season for what he had been entrusted with to reveal, because it was not time yet in God's calendar. That must have been especially crushing to see, but like Moses, not be able to walk in it.


I figured the "each in his order" had a lot to do with the next age, God's direct presence...so not sure how the Manifest Sons enter in there.  Maybe the others are then resurrected and the Manifest Sons who never died are ministering to them?

Again, the firstfruits principle applies. He raises up some, like thousands of "Christ's" in power and authority, and the miracles and the words they speak with the drawing of the HG pull in the giant harvest from the right side of the boat. It's a story with a fabulous ending........ALL OF CREATION RESTORED. Blessings....

Thanks.  :bigGrin:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline jabcat

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #182 on: November 09, 2009, 06:29:55 AM »
Thanks Card, I think I understand at least most of what you're saying.  :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #183 on: November 09, 2009, 06:30:49 AM »
 :cloud9: :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #184 on: November 09, 2009, 06:37:34 AM »
Quote
Yes, the harvest is of a many membered body that was just like His body.

You mean many believers who each have a glorified physical body like Jesus' body?
Is that what you mean?

 :cloud9: Yes, I think that's whats going to happen. I have seen the glorified body within myself. It was as cells of living gold light, is the only way I can describe it, and the cells were moving very fast (quickened by the Spirit). Paul said we would be clothed upon with this immortality. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #185 on: November 09, 2009, 07:06:46 AM »
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

 15Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place.

 16For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.

 
--2 Chron 7

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #186 on: November 09, 2009, 07:09:30 AM »
I tell you the truth. The person that believes in me will do the same things I have done. Yes! He will do even greater things than I have done. Why? Because I am going to the Father. And if you ask for anything in my name, I will do it for you. Then the Father's glory will be shown through the Son. If you ask me for anything in my name, I will do it.

Does this pertain to what you all are speaking of?  :dontknow:
I am understanding some though.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #187 on: November 09, 2009, 07:16:08 AM »
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

 15Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place.

 16For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.

 
--2 Chron 7

 :cloud9: Molly, I love this, this was the perfect passage of scripture to add to this.....some thoughts...........name means nature, who He calls He equips, so called to become His nature.

He spoke to me in church, that the meaning HE means of humble, is to empty ourselves out of all WE THINK WE ARE, to RECEIVE all HE SAYS WE ARE. We've allowed our carnal minds to tell us who we are, we've allowed the carnal minds of others to speak words of death over us telling us who we are, but He wants us to BELIEVE Him about who we are.

Forgive their sin and heal their land..........the wages of sin are death........again; to sin means to miss the mark, the mark is the mind of Christ, the mind of Christ is thinking how God thinks. Christ is the heart of God. He wants to heal our land, ie. make us whole, spirit, soul, and BODY.

When the house of God was sanctified by the priests by the blood, then the presence of the God came into that place and He dwelled among men. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #188 on: November 09, 2009, 07:20:10 AM »
I want you all to know this thread is appreciated, I am learning more understanding more. THANKS!

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #189 on: November 09, 2009, 07:24:41 AM »
I tell you the truth. The person that believes in me will do the same things I have done. Yes! He will do even greater things than I have done. Why? Because I am going to the Father. And if you ask for anything in my name, I will do it for you. Then the Father's glory will be shown through the Son. If you ask me for anything in my name, I will do it.

Does this pertain to what you all are speaking of?  :dontknow:
I am understanding some though.

 :cloud9: Yes it does.....He showed me the greater works we would do, was to bring the soul in union with the Spirit. This IS the first resurrection. He prepared the way for it to be done, but it was to come about in season.

Essentially, the High Priest was the pattern for it. He had to "fulfill" the 2 commandments that the 10 hung upon, in that he first had to offer a sacrifice for himself (rightstanding with God) and then he had to offer  up a sacrifice for the people (rightstanding with man).

So because this ties in with the last feast, and God's calendar declared that it would not occur for the body (the Head went ahead 2000 cubits or 2 days) until after the 2 days or 2000 years of Pentecost had been fulfilled.

So these two things that he fulfilled, we fulfill thru Christ in us, spiritually, so that in so doing, our soul is brought into union with the Spirit, just like the pattern of the High Priest walking from the outer court to the inner court, ie. the two brought into union. My soul doth magnify the Lord. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline sparrow

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #190 on: November 09, 2009, 07:25:26 AM »
Quote
Yes, the harvest is of a many membered body that was just like His body.

You mean many believers who each have a glorified physical body like Jesus' body?
Is that what you mean?

 :cloud9: Yes, I think that's whats going to happen.

Ok thanks again for the clarification.
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #191 on: November 09, 2009, 07:42:08 AM »
Quote from: Jab
One thing I've thought about is, it seems the rapture folks put forth some REAL SPECIFIC postulations about the "end times"...you know, the Left Behind stuff, Jack Van Impe, etc....Right or wrong, whether they all agree or not, it does seem they present specific scenarios.  That's one thing I'm interested in from the other POV, like I asked a few posts ago about a "roadmap".  

So again, I think your question above is very connected to my "what does this look like/what will people actually be doing" questions.  If not flown away to heaven or hell, and we're all here on earth doing something, then...?  Maybe it's just not known fully yet and is more of an overview right now .

I think a little patience is required because this is a huge topic, and really, we could talk about it for a long time.  A lot of this teaching comes directly out of the Old Testament where it is illustrated in God's chosen people as they are brought out of Egypt, taken into the wilderness, fed with manna from God, led by God going before them and behind them [the good shepherd], the tabernacle in the wilderness, the Temple of Solomon, the three sided tent of David [again these three show the progression of total salvation, soul, spirit, and body], the details of the priesthood, and so on, ---all of this illustrates the stages we go through, as God creates a people for himself, a royal priesthood--prophet, priest, and king, all of which the Lord Jesus was himself.

It's complicated, in other words.  I think for people like Cardinal, it is just downloaded into her spirit [just my (maybe faulty) observation, Cardinal lol], whereas for people like me, it takes a long road of study and prayer.  I have been looking at these things for years.  I always knew God was going somewhere with his unfolding plan and I wanted to know where and how.  Like you, I wanted the details.  But, it can take time and require patience, although now, like others, I think things are going to start happening very quickly.  We are entering the eighth day.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2009, 07:49:14 AM by Molly »

Offline sparrow

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #192 on: November 09, 2009, 08:09:17 AM »
It also takes a lot of discernment.
Don't rely on other's interpretations and visions.
Because there are plenty of ministers who share their visions, and I tell you one thing, I don't know who the vision came from, but it certainly isn't from the God that I know.  :msealed:

Trust in God to show you truth.
Listen to what others have to say...
but ultimately... trust in HIM.
What is truth will remain, what is non-truth will dissipate.
Mankind so quickly leads mankind astray.
But He never will.

Well just some thoughts.
peace.
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #193 on: November 09, 2009, 08:14:24 AM »
Quote from: Sparrow
Because there are plenty of ministers who share their visions, and I tell you one thing, I don't know who the vision came from, but it certainly isn't from the God that I know. 

What 'vision' are you referring to, Sparrow?

Offline sparrow

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #194 on: November 09, 2009, 08:23:54 AM »
Quote from: Sparrow
Because there are plenty of ministers who share their visions, and I tell you one thing, I don't know who the vision came from, but it certainly isn't from the God that I know. 

What 'vision' are you referring to, Sparrow?

No vision in particular. Ministers/preachers, etc. who have visions and then share them saying they are from God. There are plenty of ministers who have their flock hanging on every word they say because they think their Minister has some sort of power or annointing that they don't. Cardinal listed some "kingdom ministers". It reminded me of the fact that we all need to have discernment and not blindly listen to man without questioning. But instead listen to and lean on  God. I'm not saying people don't have visions. I'm saying have discernment and don't just accept what someone has to say just because they say something is from God or God told them this and that. Don't just automatically accept it. Lots of stuff people say is from God and it isn't at all.

Discernment is key.
That's the point I'm trying to make.


peace.
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #195 on: November 09, 2009, 08:39:31 AM »
It seems a mistake to think our bodies being transfigured like unto His body of glory will happen for everybody all at once (and, not to digress upon here, it is a mistake to think that it is the same thing that happens to all of us, not only what, but how.) The only scripture I've been able to find that has been used to say this actually doesn't when more closely examined. (In a very real sense, I have no personal investment in how all this takes place. How could I care for anything other than seeking to discover what God reveals about it?) "...we all shall be changed, in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, IN the last trump..." 1 Cor 15:52 1.) "In an instant," or, "moment" (KJV) in Greek is in atomos, meaning "un-cut," or, "without division or separation." This is the only occurence I've yet found in the N.T.

About 300 years earlier, in classical (not Biblical) Greek, Plato used atomos to refer to what we in scientific terminology call the elements. Anything that was purified by "cutting" out everything mixed with it until there was nothing that could be separated from it any more was an element, such as gold, or sulfur, or iron, etc. In modern times we borrowed the term to apply to the similar "atoms" as in an "atomic" bomb. This is one possible meaning of the word here. The change coming is in the very foundation of our physical nature. The "elements" that make up our body, the very "atomic" structures will undergo a metamorphosis into an immortal body with incorruptible life.

Another consideration is provided in the use of the same word, in a positive rather than negative sense, prefixed with "rightly, or, correctly" as orthotomeo in 2 Tim 2:15 "erect-cut," "erect" meaning "upright," or, "'rightly' dividing" in the phrase "correctly cutting the word of truth." The word of the original Greek (as well as Hebrew) were written in a continuous string of letters. They put no divisions between the words. There was no punctuation. To cause the truth to rise one had to correctly cut it. Think of how this change will occur, with "negative-cutting," or, without interruption. Not only an inward peaceful transition, just taking the next step, a step over a threshold in a long journey leading up to it, without which you couldn't get there; but also, considered outwardly, it may imply that this would happen without the world observing a thing. There will be no discontinuity in the change He's talking about! (This bears some similarity to the next phrase to consider.)

An important thing is that this seems to be the only time this word occurs in the N. T. The word used everywhere else in the Scripture for "instantly, or, immediately" is parachrema, not of the same family. The other phrase is: "in the twinkle of an eye." This is r[h]ipe "the upward or downward motion of the eyelid." The change is in a "blink" of an eye; or, more literally it may be "'toss' of an eye," or, "'glance' of an eye," as when one looks from one place to another. Here is no inward disruption but continuity. The change is in looking from one place to another. It is not an indication of a length of time.  We are changed "from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord" as we behold Him.  The presence of the Lord occurs by our being brought into beholding Him in increasing glory.  You tend to believe what you see.  "The Glory" is His manifest presence.

"...Not all of us will sleep in death; but, all of us will be changed into something else, in the very chemical elements and atomic structures of which our physical bodies consist, in looking away into another realm, and in the sound from God's prepared vessel through which His Spirit will blow (what prophetically was a trumpet in the "Feast of Tabernacles" which in reality is) the anointed word of a ministry which will cause those that hear to partake of the change of our vile bodies into a body like unto Jesus' body of glory..." -- 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, explained)
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #196 on: November 09, 2009, 08:40:09 AM »
Quote from: Sparrow
Because there are plenty of ministers who share their visions, and I tell you one thing, I don't know who the vision came from, but it certainly isn't from the God that I know. 

What 'vision' are you referring to, Sparrow?

No vision in particular. Ministers/preachers, etc. who have visions and then share them saying they are from God. There are plenty of ministers who have their flock hanging on every word they say because they think their Minister has some sort of power or annointing that they don't. Cardinal listed some "kingdom ministers". It reminded me of the fact that we all need to have discernment and not blindly listen to man without questioning. But instead listen to and lean on  God. I'm not saying people don't have visions. I'm saying have discernment and don't just accept what someone has to say just because they say something is from God or God told them this and that. Don't just automatically accept it. Lots of stuff people say is from God and it isn't at all.

Discernment is key.
That's the point I'm trying to make.


peace.
Oh, yes, absolutely  I agree with you.  Lean on God and the Spirit of truth for everything.

Discernment, also, is something that we develop over time.

In terms of mentioning ministers or theories or types of beliefs, I usually never bother to read what others think and can never keep the different categories straight, premill, postmill, etc, because it is of no interest to me what others have to say unless that is where God is leading me at the time.  

But, I have to say, when someone [like Eby] says something that you yourself have been mulling over for a long time and you've not seen where anyone else is saying it, it really knocks your socks off.

As Cardinal says, it is a witness to what you already know to be true.

Now should Eby tell me to put on my purple shoes and drink cool-aide because Hale-Bop is coming around again, that would be a different story.  :icon_king:

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #197 on: November 09, 2009, 08:43:36 AM »
In 1 Thes 4:17, for KJV "caught up together" it is harpazo hama meaning "possessed together" or "siezed simultaneously."  Often the translators add words like "up" or "away," as in, "caught UP," or, "snatched AWAY," misleading words that are definitely NOT in the original language. Harpazo simply means to "to seize (as ones own.)"

Paul was "harpazo-ed," or, "possessed" by the Holy Spirit into the 3rd heaven and also entered Paradise (which may not be the same thing) while still alive, though he didn't know if the experience was as a spirit out of the body or if he was in his body, clearly meaning that it could happen either way. (While the phrase "go to heaven" is not in the Bible, this is the only place I know of where the idea occurs, though it is different than what is usually meant.)

From baptizing the Eunuch, an authority in the Ethiopian Court, Phillip was "harpazo-ed" or, "taken possession of" by God and was transported 3 days journey to Azotes, showing time and space can be superseded by us when God "seizes us as His own."  The raised dead first, then we that are alive and remain (that have not already entered into immortality) shall be "harpazo-ed" together with the Lord in the clouds, not to come back later, but, "So shall we ever be with the Lord" because what we enter into, immortality, we shall never come out of.  Our aim is not some relocation in space or a better hope in death,but a transformation of being through union with God.  It is to have Christ fully formed in us and to fully come into the Image of God. This is not only as individuals, but corporately. "...till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown (finished, perfect) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Eph 4:13)

Concerning the only place in the N.T. where harpazo is done by men rather than God, William Hendriksen in his New Testament Commentary, Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew translates Mt 11:12:  "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom is pressing forward vigorously, and vigorous men are eagerly taking possession of it."  In Greek, the kind of men here is another word that occurs nowhere else in the N.T.  They are vigorous and "forceful men," men of courage, fortitude and determination.  Here, rather than God seizing us, courageous and determined men eagerly "harpazo" the kingdom of God.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2009, 09:13:59 PM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #198 on: November 09, 2009, 08:49:41 AM »
Quote from: Reformer
"...Not all of us will sleep in death; but, all of us will be changed into something else, in the very chemical elements and atomic structures of which our physical bodies consist, in looking away into another realm, and in the sound from God's prepared vessel through which His Spirit will blow (what prophetically was a trumpet in the "Feast of Tabernacles" which in reality is) the anointed word of a ministry which will cause those that hear to partake of the change of our vile bodies into a body like unto Jesus' body of glory..." -- 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, explained)

Beautiful!

Offline jabcat

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #199 on: November 09, 2009, 08:51:09 AM »
Interesting thoughts to my post Molly, worth more consideration.  Thanks.

I'll look at your posts more tomorrow, James.  I'm goin' to bed.  ('night sparrow  :bigGrin)
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23