Author Topic: Who lives - who dies?  (Read 16664 times)

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Offline jabcat

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #150 on: November 08, 2009, 06:44:18 AM »
On some level perhaps?  

I personally don't rule out all of these thoughts as well;  (WARNING - some orthodox terminology included   :mshock:    :happy3:)

"The city's exact dimensions are measured by an angel and reported to be 12,000 stadia, the equivalent of 1,400 miles or 2,200 kilometers, in length, width, and height (Revelation 21:15-16). Even though these proportions may have symbolic importance, this doesn't mean they can't be literal. In fact, Scripture emphasizes that the dimensions are given in "man's measurement" (Revelation 21:17). If the city really has these dimensions (and there's no reason it couldn't), what more could we expect God to say to convince us? (I deal with whether the dimensions are literal in appendix B, "Literal and Figurative Interpretation.")

A metropolis of this size in the middle of the United States would stretch from Canada to Mexico and from the Appalachian Mountains to the California border. The New Jerusalem is all the square footage anyone could ask for.

Even more astounding is the city's 1,400-mile height. Some people suggest this is the reach of the city's tallest towers and spires, rising above buildings of lesser height. If so, they argue that it's more like a pyramid than a cube.

We don't need to worry that Heaven will be crowded. The ground level of the city will be nearly two million square miles. This is forty times bigger than England and fifteen thousand times bigger than London. It's ten times as big as France or Germany and far larger than India. But remember, that's just the ground level.

Given the dimensions of a 1,400-mile cube, if the city consisted of different levels (we don't know this), and if each story were a generous twelve feet high, the city could have over 600,000 stories. If they were on different levels, billions of people could occupy the New Jerusalem, with many square miles per person.

If these numbers are figurative, not literal (and that is certainly possible), surely they are still meant to convey that the home of God's people will be extremely large and roomy.

The cube shape of the New Jerusalem reminds us of the cube shape of the Most Holy Place in the Temple (1 Kings 6:20), the three dimensions perhaps suggestive of the three persons of the Trinity. God will live in the city, and it is his presence that will be its greatest feature."

(Excerpted from Heaven by Randy Alcorn, p. 242-243)  http://www.epm.org/artman2/publish/eternity_questions_answers_about_heaven_book/What_Are_the_New_Jerusalem_s_Dimensions.shtml




Offline Raggedy Anne

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #151 on: November 08, 2009, 06:57:11 AM »
The 120 year mark is broken, ww... :girlheart:

It's been broken for 13 years, actually. :laughing7:

Not to be snarky or anything, though, but I don't see what people living progressively slightly longer lives on average as civilization progresses has to do with Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and such like.  Aren't people supposed to never die?  Are our incorruptible bodies being phased in slowly, or something?  It seems to me that either we will never die, or we will die, and if we will die, then we haven't really gotten anywhere at all in terms of what some believe we are promised in the Bible.

Yes, that's what I was thinking as well.  When I think of ETERNAL LIFE, I don't think in linear or biological terms - but maybe that's just me.

Anne
Ours is not to make up anybody's mind, but to open hearts.
You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #152 on: November 08, 2009, 07:05:05 AM »
Could this--

The eighth day was the great day of this holiday, because then they returned to their own houses again, and remembered how, after they had long dwelt in tents in the wilderness, at length they came to a happy settlement in the land of promise, where they dwelt in goodly houses.

Be related to this?

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.



Is he preparing a body for us?  Is that the promised land?

 :cloud9: In my unorthodox opinion  :winkgrin:......YES.....the body is what is being formed in us of Him and thru Him, the glory that will be revealed, the immortality to consume mortality.

Notice it was in the 8th day; that is when they gave the sons their NAME/NATURE after being rubbed with salt. Salt burns, as does fire. Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #153 on: November 08, 2009, 08:07:32 AM »
Could this--

The eighth day was the great day of this holiday, because then they returned to their own houses again, and remembered how, after they had long dwelt in tents in the wilderness, at length they came to a happy settlement in the land of promise, where they dwelt in goodly houses.

Be related to this?

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.



Is he preparing a body for us?  Is that the promised land?

 :cloud9: In my unorthodox opinion  :winkgrin:......YES.....the body is what is being formed in us of Him and thru Him, the glory that will be revealed, the immortality to consume mortality.

Notice it was in the 8th day; that is when they gave the sons their NAME/NATURE after being rubbed with salt. Salt burns, as does fire. Blessings...

wow :HeartThrob:  Thank God for you, Cardinal.

We get to move from these humble tents into a

"mansion"

G3438
μονή
monē
mon-ay'
From G3306; a staying, that is, residence (the act or the place): - abode, mansion.

G3306
μένω
menō
men'-o
A primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy): - abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.




8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.


--Heb 11
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 08:13:32 AM by Molly »

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #154 on: November 08, 2009, 08:12:30 AM »
 :cloud9: Molly......New heaven = mind of Christ, new earth = glorified body. Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #155 on: November 08, 2009, 08:14:29 AM »
:cloud9: Molly......New heaven = mind of Christ, new earth = glorified body. Blessings...
Amazing. :HeartThrob:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #156 on: November 08, 2009, 09:41:30 AM »
The 120 year mark is broken, ww... :girlheart:
Let's just say I'm sceptical. I've read similar things before and then lateron it became clear the age was guestimated beacuse there were no (relaible) birth records. God said 120. But not years :winkgrin: The word year is translated from means something "returns" "revolution" "cycle".
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #157 on: November 08, 2009, 09:59:36 AM »
Could this--

The eighth day was the great day of this holiday, because then they returned to their own houses again, and remembered how, after they had long dwelt in tents in the wilderness, at length they came to a happy settlement in the land of promise, where they dwelt in goodly houses.

Be related to this?

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Peronally I think the mansions are bridal chambers.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Gab

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #158 on: November 08, 2009, 10:01:51 AM »
The 120 year mark is broken, ww... :girlheart:
Let's just say I'm sceptical. I've read similar things before and then lateron it became clear the age was guestimated beacuse there were no (relaible) birth records. God said 120. But not years :winkgrin: The word year is translated from means something "returns" "revolution" "cycle".

I don't know about that 128-year-old lady, but it doesn't matter for the purposes of the 120-year boundary - like I said, that was already broken in 1996 by one Jeanne Calment, who has indeed been confirmed with certainty to have lived for 122 years and 164 days.

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #159 on: November 08, 2009, 02:31:40 PM »
The 120 year mark is broken, ww... :girlheart:
Let's just say I'm sceptical. I've read similar things before and then lateron it became clear the age was guestimated beacuse there were no (relaible) birth records. God said 120. But not years :winkgrin: The word year is translated from means something "returns" "revolution" "cycle".

I don't know about that 128-year-old lady, but it doesn't matter for the purposes of the 120-year boundary - like I said, that was already broken in 1996 by one Jeanne Calment, who has indeed been confirmed with certainty to have lived for 122 years and 164 days.

So it's a trend that started just before the millenium?  Interesting...


Some Day, We May Not Look a Day Over 120
Trend of longer lives will only continue, UC researcher says
David Perlman, Chronicle Science Editor

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2000/09/29/MN48421.DTL&type=printable

Gab

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #160 on: November 08, 2009, 02:58:26 PM »
So it's a trend that started just before the millenium?  Interesting...


Some Day, We May Not Look a Day Over 120
Trend of longer lives will only continue, UC researcher says
David Perlman, Chronicle Science Editor

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2000/09/29/MN48421.DTL&type=printable


I still don't understand what this has to do with anything - living to 120 doesn't make you any closer to immortality than living to 100.  If this is about the statement in Genesis 6:3, I don't exactly know of anything notable that happened to human life expectancy in 1997 or really to humanity in general that wasn't present in 1995... which kinda makes it seem as though breaking the 120-year boundary was basically uneventful all around when all is said and done, except for interest's sake I suppose.

I mean no offense by this, but I can't help but get the sense that you seem to be exclusively interpreting reality through a preconceived set of doctrine you've found from the Bible.  It seems to me that it could not hurt to go in the other direction once in a while.  If what we see in reality is plainly in conflict with what we've read the Bible as saying, then ought we not at least maybe entertain the idea, if only momentarily, that perhaps we read the Bible wrong?

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #161 on: November 08, 2009, 03:35:47 PM »
 
Quote from: Gab
I still don't understand what this has to do with anything - living to 120 doesn't make you any closer to immortality than living to 100.  If this is about the statement in Genesis 6:3, I don't exactly know of anything notable that happened to human life expectancy in 1997 or really to humanity in general that wasn't present in 1995... which kinda makes it seem as though breaking the 120-year boundary was basically uneventful all around when all is said and done, except for interest's sake I suppose.

It comes out of a conversational bantering between ww and I where he said that God had decreed an upper limit lifespan of 120 'years' on man.  It certainly looks that way since the flood, until recently, that is.  But, if you read the whole discussion, you will see that I and others have been quoting and discussing scripture which points to the fulfillment of the third feast, Tabernacles.  That is all that is really relevant here.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #162 on: November 08, 2009, 05:06:23 PM »
We get to move from these humble tents into a

"mansion"

G3438
μονή
monē
mon-ay'
From G3306; a staying, that is, residence (the act or the place): - abode, mansion.

G3306
μένω
menō
men'-o
A primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy): - abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.


 :cloud9: Think on this. The mansion is a literal cell of His body. That cell is already being prepared for us, in us, which is why He stated He had to go away, because the HG is the one that comes to prepare it.

The Father's house IS Christ; God the Father was IN CHRIST (not the flesh of Him but the Spirit of Him) reconciling all men unto Himself. Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline rosered

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #163 on: November 08, 2009, 05:15:12 PM »
We get to move from these humble tents into a

"mansion"

G3438
μονή
monē
mon-ay'
From G3306; a staying, that is, residence (the act or the place): - abode, mansion.

G3306
μένω
menō
men'-o
A primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy): - abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.


 :cloud9: Think on this. The mansion is a literal cell of His body. That cell is already being prepared for us, in us, which is why He stated He had to go away, because the HG is the one that comes to prepare it.

The Father's house IS Christ; God the Father was IN CHRIST (not the flesh of Him but the Spirit of Him) reconciling all men unto Himself. Blessings.....
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 


 Jhn 14:2   In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 


 Jhn 14:3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. 


 Jhn 14:4   And where  ever  I go you know, and the way you know
.
  walking in the SPIRIT of Christ /annointing  :HeartThrob:
 
  awesome exchange    this moring  :cloud9:

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #164 on: November 08, 2009, 05:33:15 PM »
We get to move from these humble tents into a

"mansion"

G3438
μονή
monē
mon-ay'
From G3306; a staying, that is, residence (the act or the place): - abode, mansion.

G3306
μένω
menō
men'-o
A primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy): - abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.


 :cloud9: Think on this. The mansion is a literal cell of His body. That cell is already being prepared for us, in us, which is why He stated He had to go away, because the HG is the one that comes to prepare it.

The Father's house IS Christ; God the Father was IN CHRIST (not the flesh of Him but the Spirit of Him) reconciling all men unto Himself. Blessings.....
Yes.  :mshock:  Only the body of Christ could carry the image of the invisible God.

Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #165 on: November 08, 2009, 05:35:40 PM »
Quote from: rosered
Jhn 14:3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. 


Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
 :HeartThrob:

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #166 on: November 08, 2009, 05:43:38 PM »
 :cloud9: And take what I shared on here once before about the manifestation, and run with it, Molly, now that you see where God is, and tie it in with the 3rd feast.  :winkgrin: Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline rosered

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #167 on: November 08, 2009, 05:54:44 PM »
Could this--

The eighth day was the great day of this holiday, because then they returned to their own houses again, and remembered how, after they had long dwelt in tents in the wilderness, at length they came to a happy settlement in the land of promise, where they dwelt in goodly houses.

Be related to this?

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Peronally I think the mansions are bridal chambers.
    Yes amen ! I can see that Bro T ,
  you should share   your thoughts on this in more detail !
 
  :HeartThrob: rose Jhn 3:29 He that hath the bride/ True Chruch  is the bridegroom/ Jesus Christ : but the friend of the bridegroom/  the the    law of God , which stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #168 on: November 08, 2009, 06:24:12 PM »
Could this--

The eighth day was the great day of this holiday, because then they returned to their own houses again, and remembered how, after they had long dwelt in tents in the wilderness, at length they came to a happy settlement in the land of promise, where they dwelt in goodly houses.

Be related to this?

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Peronally I think the mansions are bridal chambers.
    Yes amen ! I can see that Bro T ,
  you should share   your thoughts on this in more detail !
 
  :HeartThrob: rose Jhn 3:29 He that hath the bride/ True Chruch  is the bridegroom/ Jesus Christ : but the friend of the bridegroom/  the the    law of God , which stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 
Who's in the bridal chamber?

The bride AND the groom...

Offline rosered

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #169 on: November 08, 2009, 06:52:57 PM »

 
  Hi Molly ,
 yes  it is !!,
 but  even more so the two shall become "one flesh"
  for making of the holy ones "children of the most High"
 
   WW sharing something with me the other day that was    really good  pertaining to this discussion  ..  of the  Jewish faith
 and the customs a pattern of  what  it writtin in the New Testament
 
  :HeartThrob:

jenna

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #170 on: November 09, 2009, 01:05:06 AM »
Ok, then "Molly". :grin: So you do not believe Christ will return? Exactly how is this belief unscriptural?
Hi Jenna, we are reading this online book that Cardinal gave the link to above.  He is saying [among other things] that the church notion of a 'second coming' of Christ sometime in the hazy future is not only unscriptural but it deceives the church into missing the continual coming of Christ in our lives now, in a variety of forms and ways.  Want to read the book with us?

From Eby--


"It need hardly be said that in the teachings of Jesus and the early apostles the thought of some future coming of His looms rather large. On a careful consideration of their words, however, it soon becomes apparent that they do not always speak of His coming in the same sense. The study of the teachings of the New Testament on this point calls for careful and prayerful and reverent discrimination. The supposition by the teachers and believers in the church systems that every time the scriptures speak of Christ's "coming" they have one particular and singular future event in mind can only lead to confusion and error.

 It should be self-evident that Christ's coming as Bridegroom (Mat. 25:1-10) cannot be to the same people, at the same time, in the same manner, nor for the same purpose as His coming as a Refiner's Fire (Mal. 3:1-3). He comes as Bridegroom to His prepared, adorned, and expectant bride in a deeply spiritual relationship of intimate love and vital union, whereas He comes to those apprehended to be His Royal Priesthood in a manifestation of severity - purging and purifying. Both are said to be His COMING. Christ's coming again as the Spirit of Truth (Jn. 14:16-23) and His coming in Flaming Fire of Vengence (II Thes. 1:7-8) are obviously not the same coming; not to the same people, not at the same time, not in the same manner, nor for the same purpose. He came as the blessed Spirit of Truth on the day of Pentecost and has continued to come in that precious way to illuminate mind and heart of every man and woman who seeks Him in sincerity and truth; but He has come and shall yet come in Flaming Fire to deal out retribution - chastisement and vengence - upon those who do not know or perceive or become adquainted with God and upon those who ignore and refuse to obey the God of our Lord Jesus Christ. Both of these manifestations are described in scripture as the COMING of the Lord. It is useless to try to fit them both into one singular event destined to transpire within a few moments of time at the conclusion of this age. The Word of God is clear in its teaching that the coming of the Lord is a many-faceted experience, including many manifestations. Truly He came; He continued to come; He comes; He continues to come; He shall come; and He shall continue to come!"


Not to be a sore spot, but I find this extremely hard to swallow. You guys are believing the words of one man's "interpretation" of what the bible says, instead of what it actually says. Cardinal! This is just, well I have no proper words.! :drama: :wacko2: :pitiful:  I think you all need a good proverbial :spank:!

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #171 on: November 09, 2009, 01:33:38 AM »
 :cloud9: Hi Jenna.....no, actually I'm not. What he wrote is a WITNESS to what the SPIRIT already taught me. And as for one man; hardly. I know dozens of kingdom ministers who have been shown the same. Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #172 on: November 09, 2009, 05:04:35 AM »
The last great Feast of the Israelite year was Tabernacles ... and startling as it might seem, this is the Feast that remains to be fulfilled! Tabernacles is called "the Feast of Ingathering, which is in the END OF THE YEAR." Pentecost is only the firstfruits of the Spirit, but Tabernacles is the full harvest - FULLNESS! And this fullness comes in the END of the year, at the completion of our walk with God, and I believe that we have not witnessed such fullness in any save in our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and neither shall we until the very close of this present age, The Feast of Tabernacles could not be celebrated until Israel had left the wilderness behind, and was dwelling in Canaan. Even so, Christ is bringing a great company of apprehended ones, in the END of this age, out of their wilderness wanderings of immaturity, carnality and struggle on into their promised land - the measure of the stature of the FULLNESS OF CHRIST. Oh, yes, God shall surely give unto the elect sons of God the FULLNESS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD of which we, up until this time, have only received the "earnest" or "firstfruits."

I do not hesitate to say that we are still partaking of the Feast of Pentecost. But I have good news for you. JESUS IS COMING AGAIN! He is coming in the Feast of Tabernacles, and BLESSED are they who are called to this great Feast, that which supersedes Pentecost, that which is the balance of the meal of which Passover and Pentecost were merely the first courses. As we leave this Feast in great strength, those who shall represent the Kingdom of God on this planet from that time forth will be abiding in the fullness of HIS RESURRECTION LIFE. It shall mean a new day of hope and deliverance and glory for the whole earth as the Lord COMES AGAIN to meet man in this great and glorious Feast of HIS FULLNESS. This is the coming of the Lord that the churches and television and radio evangelists know nothing about. The "rapture" crowd doesn't actually believe in the "COMING of the Lord" anyway - they believe in the "GOING of the saints"! While we teach the "APPEARING of Jesus" they teach the "DISAPPEARING of the Church." How much more wonderful and beautiful is the truth! Jesus is COMING! Glory to God!

---J. Preston Eby


« Last Edit: November 09, 2009, 05:07:57 AM by Molly »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #173 on: November 09, 2009, 05:27:09 AM »
A few excerpts from your last post Molly, and a few questions.  Anyone care to tackle?

1)  "...the END OF THE YEAR...very close of this present age"

When?  Soon?  A thousand years?  Does this tie into the scripture "no man knows the day or the hour when the Son of Man comes"?
 

2)"...JESUS IS COMING AGAIN! He is coming in the Feast of Tabernacles"

How?  What will that look like?  What will people be doing?  [I do believe in His manifesting within us, tabernacling with us, etc., but that that doesn't necessarily rule out His literal appearing at some point, and a literal New Jerusalem, new heaven and new earth as well - that it can't be both.  I wonder if absolute, exclusive adherence to either POV may leave out other realities of His coming(s) and our expierences in that - again, the spiritual AND (at least some) literal]



3)"... BLESSED are they who are called to this great Feast, As we leave this Feast in great strength, those who shall represent the Kingdom of God on this planet from that time forth will be abiding in the fullness of HIS RESURRECTION LIFE. It shall mean a new day of hope and deliverance and glory for the whole earth as the Lord COMES AGAIN to meet man in this great and glorious Feast of HIS FULLNESS."


Who is that?  The "few"?  If so, who are they?  And what will the rest be doing?

« Last Edit: November 09, 2009, 05:34:33 AM by jabcat »

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #174 on: November 09, 2009, 05:33:43 AM »
Oh, yes, God shall surely give unto the elect sons of God the FULLNESS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD of which we, up until this time, have only received the "earnest" or "firstfruits."

 :cloud9: I like it all Molly, but this jumped out at me. This is so awesome and what He has shown me. Christ is the firstfruits; but the FATHER was IN CHRIST, reconciling all men unto Himself. What is coming is GOD THE FATHER in full manifestation IN CHRIST, IN US. Which is why He was able to say, if you've seen ME (perceived thru the Spirit WHO was speaking to them), you've seen the FATHER. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor