Author Topic: Who lives - who dies?  (Read 13861 times)

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Offline jabcat

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #100 on: November 07, 2009, 07:45:07 AM »
Yes, yet J. Preston is a proponent of the Manifest Sons of God doctrine.  So really, honestly, I'm still a little confused as to what he (and others) believe on that.  Some don't think we'll actually "see" Jesus, but that it will be Him working THROUGH the priesthood or Manifest Sons of God.  That's one reason in my diatribe  :happygrin: I said I didn't know what "group 2" believed would eventually occur...where they would end up, if they would EVER be in Jesus' direct presence or not.  And it's true, I honestly don't know, and that may be one of those questions Frank or Bob have yet to answer directly.

I'd just kind of like to see a road map of that understanding..."OK, we're here, a small group doing X,Y,Z.  Then God does A, and we start doing B.  So God and Jesus are either a.) out of our sight or b.) right there at arm's length in His glorified body, talking with us.   And at that time we're on (earth, new earth, in New Jerusalem?), and some people are dying, but there's this one group that's going to live 500-1,000 years doing _______?______.  And then the rest will eventually ___?____. ..... And that's how God becomes All in All."   Silly me, we'd probably end up with an Atlas, you know, like a map for every state - how many different opinions do you think that would garner?   :laughing7:
  
Well, I'm out for awhile, check back later, have a great night.

Bottom line.  Jesus, the Son of God.   :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 07:51:27 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #101 on: November 07, 2009, 08:06:07 AM »
I'm thinking that if the Lord Jesus showed up in all his glory before we are ready, we might just drop dead lol.  Something about new wine bursting old wineskins.  Look at Paul who was clearly ready and prepared, and he had to be led home by the hand and nursed for three days until a messenger was sent by God to restore his sight.

Therefore, he comes to us in a whole variety of 'hidden' ways, giving us a constantly growing revelation of himself, from glory to glory,  until we are at the point where we can see him face to face and live.


Jehovah is the ever-coming One. The Coming One is my Lord and my God. Various Jehovah combinations or compound names are used in the scriptures, each indicating how He comes to us:

JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU, the Coming One, thy Righteousness.
JEHOVAH-JIREH, the Coming One, thy Provider.
JEHOVAH-ROPHI, the Coming One, thy Healer.
JEHOVAH-NISSI, the Coming One, thy Banner.
JEHOVAH-MEKADDISHKEN, the Coming One, thy Sanctifier.
JEHOVAH-SHALOM, the Coming One, thy Peace.
JEHOVAH-SABAOTH, the Coming One, thy Warrior.
JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH, the Coming One, Present with thee.
JEHOVAH-ELYON, the Coming One, Most High.
JEHOVAH-RA-AH, the Coming One, thy Shepherd.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #102 on: November 07, 2009, 10:26:15 AM »
My thought is: Why group A or B or C?
Why not group A and B and C?
I can very well imagine HS being in people since a very long time. St. Peter as an example. His body died but his spirit never died or fell asleep. The spirit just lives forever. But for me that doesn't mean or prove that God can't have some grand finally planned. "Suddenly" people no longer get ill and sick. And a literal return of Jesus.
Equally I think Revelation could have happend in 70AD and for each deep believer in the past 2000 year happend continually. But just looking with carnal eyes at a carnal newspaper a Revelation like WW3 isn't a insane thought either. And then perhaps Jesus really visibly return. So that's Revelation playing out in 3 groups.
Why
Cardinal sorta wrote splattered over the forum that prophesies happen several times. She had a dream Jesus crucified at the creation of the universe. Then of course Jesus on the cross nearly 2000 years ago. And a few days I've read something let's call it Jesus crucufied "inside of you" (no need for details needed. Just making a point)
And lets face it there is a lot of wishfull thinking since Jesus died. I think it's safe to say every generation had their share of people that believed Jesus will arrive soon.

I keep my wording nice and just say I would find it weird if someone claims some people in the past didn't physically die. That can't be since just by accident TM has the first people in nearly 2000 years that are holy enough to taste that pleasure. I mean are you better that Paul. John. John the Baptist etc?

It's just my feeling there will be  a literal return. Perhaps Jesus gets visible again. Perhaps the whole earth becomes spirit or can see the spirit world. Until now I've only read on this forum: "I felt the HS" "HS told me"
But I think there will be a time when those thing are "more real". Not something for deep believers but something just as obivious as many things we see in this world.

Until then: ...dust to dust... :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #103 on: November 07, 2009, 02:14:01 PM »
I think you make some very good observations and points, Tony.  That's kind of where I am with regard to a mixture of things.  Some literal, all spiritual.

I'm thinking that if the Lord Jesus showed up in all his glory before we are ready, we might just drop dead lol. 

 :Sparkletooth:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #104 on: November 07, 2009, 02:16:30 PM »
I'm on the fence. Until I feel Him nudging me which way to fly...



Very cute  :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #105 on: November 07, 2009, 02:18:47 PM »
Quick note "off topic".  Everyone remember Card in prayer today (and Rosie, and Taffy, and everyone the Lord brings to mind).  Thanks.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Taffy

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #106 on: November 07, 2009, 02:44:31 PM »
Hi Guys... :icon_flower:

For some years Ive never been led to read the writings of many[all] of those even in UR Circles...Gary Inc..I read Ebay for the first time Yesterday , and some again this morning[ additional writings]...well,  just like to say ,wish id been led earlier ,Praise the LORD for such Clarity, unconvoluting and simple speech .
 :icon_flower:


« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 07:27:28 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #107 on: November 07, 2009, 03:47:13 PM »
Quote from: Sparrow
Now with that said, Cardinal I read the article.
So now..

 ...I suppose you are saying because the "second coming" is "WITH the saints" meaning God will manifest the new earth by those who are here now on earth, so essentially...

Hi Sparrow, if you read the 'article' by which I'm guessing you mean the first chapter of that book, why are you still referring to the 'second coming' in reference to it, since the major thing that chapter points out is that the notion of a  "second coming" is unscriptural?

I'm just wondering...did you understand what he was saying in that first chapter?  Did you agree or disagree with him?

BTW, I've only read the first chapter, also, and I thought it was beautiful!  Thanks Cardinal.
Hi, Molly. I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if I am wrong, but are you saying that the second coming of Christ is unscriptural?  :dontknow:  :mshock:

Offline Taffy

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #108 on: November 07, 2009, 03:50:54 PM »
Quote from: Sparrow
Now with that said, Cardinal I read the article.
So now..

 ...I suppose you are saying because the "second coming" is "WITH the saints" meaning God will manifest the new earth by those who are here now on earth, so essentially...

Hi Sparrow, if you read the 'article' by which I'm guessing you mean the first chapter of that book, why are you still referring to the 'second coming' in reference to it, since the major thing that chapter points out is that the notion of a  "second coming" is unscriptural?

I'm just wondering...did you understand what he was saying in that first chapter?  Did you agree or disagree with him?

BTW, I've only read the first chapter, also, and I thought it was beautiful!  Thanks Cardinal.
Hi, Molly. I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if I am wrong, but are you saying that the second coming of Christ is unscriptural?  :dontknow:  :mshock:
in a word YES jenna :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

jenna

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #109 on: November 07, 2009, 03:53:29 PM »
Ok, then "Molly". :grin: So you do not believe Christ will return? Exactly how is this belief unscriptural?

Offline Taffy

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #110 on: November 07, 2009, 04:05:22 PM »
Ok, then "Molly". :grin: So you do not believe Christ will return? Exactly how is this belief unscriptural?
Sorry Jenna, Lol this is Taffy  :icon_flower:

Its a Topic which has been touched on in many a thread in recent months Jenna ...Even if you spend a Little time just reading this in its entirity , you may begin to gata grasp of folk have been discussing...

this link was proposed , to  which I  concur...explaining the second coming..delve through it and and it will save a lot of exchanges . of course were are each entitled to our veiws even so

www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Looking/Looking1.htm


 :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #111 on: November 07, 2009, 04:07:10 PM »
Ok, then "Molly". :grin: So you do not believe Christ will return? Exactly how is this belief unscriptural?
Hi Jenna, we are reading this online book that Cardinal gave the link to above.  He is saying [among other things] that the church notion of a 'second coming' of Christ sometime in the hazy future is not only unscriptural but it deceives the church into missing the continual coming of Christ in our lives now, in a variety of forms and ways.  Want to read the book with us?

From Eby--


"It need hardly be said that in the teachings of Jesus and the early apostles the thought of some future coming of His looms rather large. On a careful consideration of their words, however, it soon becomes apparent that they do not always speak of His coming in the same sense. The study of the teachings of the New Testament on this point calls for careful and prayerful and reverent discrimination. The supposition by the teachers and believers in the church systems that every time the scriptures speak of Christ's "coming" they have one particular and singular future event in mind can only lead to confusion and error.

 It should be self-evident that Christ's coming as Bridegroom (Mat. 25:1-10) cannot be to the same people, at the same time, in the same manner, nor for the same purpose as His coming as a Refiner's Fire (Mal. 3:1-3). He comes as Bridegroom to His prepared, adorned, and expectant bride in a deeply spiritual relationship of intimate love and vital union, whereas He comes to those apprehended to be His Royal Priesthood in a manifestation of severity - purging and purifying. Both are said to be His COMING. Christ's coming again as the Spirit of Truth (Jn. 14:16-23) and His coming in Flaming Fire of Vengence (II Thes. 1:7-8) are obviously not the same coming; not to the same people, not at the same time, not in the same manner, nor for the same purpose. He came as the blessed Spirit of Truth on the day of Pentecost and has continued to come in that precious way to illuminate mind and heart of every man and woman who seeks Him in sincerity and truth; but He has come and shall yet come in Flaming Fire to deal out retribution - chastisement and vengence - upon those who do not know or perceive or become adquainted with God and upon those who ignore and refuse to obey the God of our Lord Jesus Christ. Both of these manifestations are described in scripture as the COMING of the Lord. It is useless to try to fit them both into one singular event destined to transpire within a few moments of time at the conclusion of this age. The Word of God is clear in its teaching that the coming of the Lord is a many-faceted experience, including many manifestations. Truly He came; He continued to come; He comes; He continues to come; He shall come; and He shall continue to come!"


Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #112 on: November 07, 2009, 05:01:04 PM »
 :cloud9: Good morning guys, thanks for the prayers  :HeartThrob: I love you all, my net family.  :girlheart:

First of all, kudos for Beloved Servant for finding that link for me to use.

Second, no one has to believe me, but this is a true story, and those of you who have heard it before, please bear with me. :winkgrin:

When I first came to the Lord 23 years ago, and isolated myself as far as reading materials to a Strong's and Nave's study bible for the first two years of my walk, spending hours upon hours every day pouring thru the scriptures, and looking up the original language. The things that Eby talks about, HE taught me during that first year alone with Him and the Book.

In fact, He taught my friend and I together, but I had no phone at the time and so wouldn't talk to her for a week or two in person, and to our pleased shock, found that He would teach us the SAME THINGS, every single week, but independent of one another, and in different parts of scripture.

Now the funny thing is, we thought we were the only ones He was teaching these things to, until my concerned aunt, sent me a book some woman wrote about cults. As I went thru the book, she listed names, and what each one taught as the foundational beliefs of their ministries.

I finally came to one Kelly Varner, and read all his foundational beliefs. With each one I was saying, "Yeah, God taught me that, that's ok." So with a shock, I realized she was saying my friend and I were were a cult, based on what HE had taught us!

So I called my friend up and said, "I have good news and bad news; which one do you want first?"

She said, "Let me hear the bad news."

I said, "The bad news is, according to some woman who wrote this book my aunt sent me, we're a cult. I don't understand. How can we be a cult if we have no followers???"

She said, "Give me the good news, then."

I said, "The good news is, God is teaching this stuff to someone else; now we just have to find some woman named Kelly Varner!" (turns out Kelly was a man  :mblush:)

Now some things have been expanded for me in the years since, as recently as this summer, but the core principles remain the same. Each revelation from God will always build on the last revelation from God, IF indeed it was a revelation from God.

The reason things don't "line up" at times, is because we have unconsciously accepted some "revelation" from men that was NOT a revelation from God, and so the True Builder rejects the "stone" that was laid.

This is because it does not fit the pattern shown Moses in the mount, OR because it is a true layer or course of "stones" (remember the PRIESTS had COURSES?), BUT it is out of season for the hearer at that time, so He will not quicken it to them yet.

This is true for any revelation, and is the reason why many don't receive UR at this time as well, because the layer of understanding they need to receive it, has not been laid yet.

A city is multiple habitations, and we ARE that city, ie. multiple habitations of Him, and that city has walls, made of stones, laid one layer at a time.

Now man taught us to keep cattle (things yoked to the flesh realm that do works, as opposed to the Spirit whose yoke is light/understanding) from our youth, so it is always a good idea IMO to ask the Lord to cleanse us of any man-made idols we were "fed" along the way, that neither see, nor hear, nor speaks to us the way the Spirit does. My  :2c: Blessings....
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 05:08:06 PM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline sparrow

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #113 on: November 07, 2009, 08:24:30 PM »
ahhh.. Cardinal. you're back.
Have you had time to look at my response to you?
thanks,
sparrow
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #114 on: November 07, 2009, 08:45:38 PM »
 :cloud9: In short, I agree with everything Eby says.......Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline sparrow

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #115 on: November 07, 2009, 08:59:29 PM »
So Cardinal... forgive me for being so direct..
but does that mean that you do not care to answer my questions I asked of you?
If so, that's fine. But just let me know... and I'll stop asking.
Thank you,
sparrow
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline rosered

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #116 on: November 07, 2009, 10:09:36 PM »

 
  Awesome  !!! James /aka Jabcat
  you did a  great job  explaining this   natural /physical   bodies   etc.!!!  thanks !  wish my printer was working ... its a keeper . :HeartThrob:
 
 

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #117 on: November 07, 2009, 10:34:00 PM »
Ok, let me say this.

If a member says something a bit shocking such as dead people can be brought back to life (physical dead people) or that basically death doesn't have to happen in the first place, (physical) death is something that is supposed to be overcome. Then, if someone QUESTIONS the member to be absolutely sure that is what they are in fact, saying..
I think that is ok. More than ok, I think it is absolutely necessary.

If someone doesn't care to answer my questions, y'know what? I would be FINE with that.
Really. I would. Just come out and tell me. It's much better than wondering if I'm going to get answers or not. It really is much better.

Sorry Sparrow........between being really sick and busy with my daughter, I have just not felt like writing much. Now with that said.......



Now with that said, Cardinal I read the article.
So now..

I recommend you read all of Eby's writings.


are you expecting to never physically die? I suppose your answer would be that you do NOT expect to physically die.

That is our hope and our expectation and why Paul said Christ in us was the hope of glory, and that glory is going to be revealed in us. And also why he said that he did not wish to put off (die) this mortal body but to have mortality swallowed up of immortality.

Are you expecting to live beyond 120 years old? 200 years old? 300 years old? I suppose your answer would be that yes of course, because you do not expect to physically die.

If I find grace in His eyes as Noah did, I have a LIVING hope that He will consume this mortal body, and raise it up above the waters of judgment to the flesh. The new will be ageless, so time will be no more for it, just as it is for our Lord, the FORERUNNER of those that go beyond the veil. A forerunner means more will follow.

Why do you think you are not supposed to physically die? I suppose you are saying because the "second coming" is "WITH the saints" meaning God will manifest the new earth by those who are here now on earth, so essentially... those who believe this will not physically die and they will go on to spread peace and health etc. to the rest of the world. And they will eventually raise dead people up out of their graves.

I do not believe in the "second coming" as it is being taught in the churches. Just the fact that they all teach it, yet "FEW there be that find it", should be a red flag that it is not revelation from the Spirit of God.

In '06 I went thru a week of being in His presence where I only slept a total of 7 hours THE WHOLE WEEK, because His Spirit had quickened me so much from the revelation I was receiving.

Sleep being a type of death in scripture, I found out first hand that His Spirit is capable of suspending "normal" bodily functions, or at least functions we have assumed all our lives were "normal". Only having had a taste of that quickening power to that extreme (or more) measure twice in my life like that, I KNOW that there is more to come. I have seen our bodies of glory within us, and at the appointed time, immortality IS going to swallow up our mortal bodies.


Is this basically what you are saying?

Yes, as I said in the earlier post, I agree with Eby's stand on this, although I admit I have not read all of his writings, either. And he is not the only kingdom minister to believe this way, either.

Actually, my first introduction to the very thought of this, came about in a bible study 23 years ago. The Spirit of the Lord simply spoke out of my shocked mouth, that we were not all going to die, that we had a better covenant than the one of old where they lived to unheard of ages in the flesh.

Over the years, occasionally He has given me other confirmations in revelation in the word to this, and probably in the last 6 months a few more after I laid it on the altar last year when it was apparent to all that I was going to die, and I accepted that from His hand if that was His now perfect will for my life.

He had shown me in the past when I was healed of terminal cancer by Him without any medical intervention whatsoever, that if we walk in His perfect will in the proceeding word of life that comes from the Father's mouth, and He continues to heal us because of our obedience to do so, then what can kill us? NOTHING but Him. Into my Father's hands I commend my spirit. Blessings.....


It's kind of difficult trying to decipher your views from someone elses's views so I'm doing my best here with what you have given me.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 10:41:47 PM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline sparrow

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #118 on: November 08, 2009, 01:29:03 AM »


 :hiya: My response is below in BLUE:hiya:




Ok, let me say this.

If a member says something a bit shocking such as dead people can be brought back to life (physical dead people) or that basically death doesn't have to happen in the first place, (physical) death is something that is supposed to be overcome. Then, if someone QUESTIONS the member to be absolutely sure that is what they are in fact, saying..
I think that is ok. More than ok, I think it is absolutely necessary.

If someone doesn't care to answer my questions, y'know what? I would be FINE with that.
Really. I would. Just come out and tell me. It's much better than wondering if I'm going to get answers or not. It really is much better.

Sorry Sparrow........between being really sick and busy with my daughter, I have just not felt like writing much. Now with that said.......


From sparrow: I hope you are feeling better. I saw your last post and thought you were feeling up to posting so that is why I asked. I had only asked a few yes or no questions from the beginning and was trying not to trouble folks. Just wanted clarification..


Now with that said, Cardinal I read the article.
So now..

I recommend you read all of Eby's writings.


From sparrow: ALL? lol... even you said you haven't read all of Eby's writings. Just joking. I have read some of his things in the past. I'm sure I'll read more in the future.

are you expecting to never physically die? I suppose your answer would be that you do NOT expect to physically die.

That is our hope and our expectation and why Paul said Christ in us was the hope of glory, and that glory is going to be revealed in us. And also why he said that he did not wish to put off (die) this mortal body but to have mortality swallowed up of immortality.

From sparrow: Ok. Now we are getting somewhere. So the answer is basically yes, although you can't guarantee it but you have a HOPE to not physically die. Your expectation/hope is that you will never leave this earth physically, that your body will not be dead, put in a coffin, put in the ground. .

Are you expecting to live beyond 120 years old? 200 years old? 300 years old? I suppose your answer would be that yes of course, because you do not expect to physically die.

If I find grace in His eyes as Noah did, I have a LIVING hope that He will consume this mortal body, and raise it up above the waters of judgment to the flesh. The new will be ageless, so time will be no more for it, just as it is for our Lord, the FORERUNNER of those that go beyond the veil. A forerunner means more will follow.


From sparrow: Cardinal, I believe you are confusing things by trying to add so many symbols. Just a yes or no would be far more clear. But you already said that you hope to not physically die, so I am going to take it that that would of course mean that you hope to live beyond 300 years. (because basically if you are not going to physically die, then you'll of course live beyond 300 years, 400 years, a trillion years, etc. your body, you are hoping will never actually physically succumb to death. you will just keep on living, and I guess God will tranform your physical body without your body ever having to be put in a physical coffin, etc. .

Why do you think you are not supposed to physically die? I suppose you are saying because the "second coming" is "WITH the saints" meaning God will manifest the new earth by those who are here now on earth, so essentially... those who believe this will not physically die and they will go on to spread peace and health etc. to the rest of the world. And they will eventually raise dead people up out of their graves.

I do not believe in the "second coming" as it is being taught in the churches. Just the fact that they all teach it, yet "FEW there be that find it", should be a red flag that it is not revelation from the Spirit of God.

From sparrow: Yes, I understand...that is why I put that phrase in quotes. So (and you can answer this whenever you are feeling better and have time, I'm just happy that at least NOW I have a pretty good idea of where you are coming from) do you believe the believers who have not physically died will be raising people from graves? And will be spreading peace and health etc. to the rest of the world? Meaning, do you believe that God will be working through all of these people, IN THIS WAY, who didn't have to physically die? (Because we already know that God works through people NOW in other ways.) But now we are talking about literally RAISING people up out of literal GRAVES, not just "spiritual" graves. But actual coffins being dug up and dead people coming back to life. (or what have you, I'm not sure that is why I'm asking to get clarification.)

In '06 I went thru a week of being in His presence where I only slept a total of 7 hours THE WHOLE WEEK, because His Spirit had quickened me so much from the revelation I was receiving.

Sleep being a type of death in scripture, I found out first hand that His Spirit is capable of suspending "normal" bodily functions, or at least functions we have assumed all our lives were "normal". Only having had a taste of that quickening power to that extreme (or more) measure twice in my life like that, I KNOW that there is more to come. I have seen our bodies of glory within us, and at the appointed time, immortality IS going to swallow up our mortal bodies.



From sparrow: Sleep deprivation does suspend or slow down normal bodily functions, so that makes sense.  I don't believe that there is NOT more to come. That's pretty much the whole point of life... there IS more to come. I just don't know if I believe that some human beings will skip over the process of these mortal bodies succumbing to death. That's all. But my whole point in asking these questions was NOT to debate, but to clarify your views, so thank you for the clarification.


Is this basically what you are saying?

Yes, as I said in the earlier post, I agree with Eby's stand on this, although I admit I have not read all of his writings, either. And he is not the only kingdom minister to believe this way, either.


From sparrow: Wait though...."few be that find it!" lol.... the more people who believe it, the more red flags go up!  (smile)

Actually, my first introduction to the very thought of this, came about in a bible study 23 years ago. The Spirit of the Lord simply spoke out of my shocked mouth, that we were not all going to die, that we had a better covenant than the one of old where they lived to unheard of ages in the flesh.
Over the years, occasionally He has given me other confirmations in revelation in the word to this, and probably in the last 6 months a few more after I laid it on the altar last year when it was apparent to all that I was going to die, and I accepted that from His hand if that was His now perfect will for my life.

He had shown me in the past when I was healed of terminal cancer by Him without any medical intervention whatsoever, that if we walk in His perfect will in the proceeding word of life that comes from the Father's mouth, and He continues to heal us because of our obedience to do so, then what can kill us? NOTHING but Him. Into my Father's hands I commend my spirit. Blessings.....



From sparrow: To the underlined, I don't doubt that you believe that is what happened (that it came from God). Perhaps, Cardinal... you are right! Perhaps! Though, to be honest, Cardinal...I feel I must tell you that I take things like "God told me..." and "God showed me..." and "God did this supernatural thing...." and dissect them very carefully. Discernment is extremely important to me. Even the things that I feel God has done in my life, I tread carefully and keep some things to myself. I think that there are a lot of times when people think God is talking to them or showing them something, but they are wrong. Supernatural things also do not always mean it is coming from God. So I am not saying that I don't believe what you are saying. Please don't take offense. I have had experiences as well. Yes, some supernatural. I'm very careful of who I share certain things with. And I don't expect people to just believe nor do I WANT them to. To me, that's not how it works.  I've read plenty of people saying "Well, God told me this..." and it is very obvious that what they are saying is NOT from God. Just hang around an ET discussion long enough, and you'll see plenty of "God spoke to me and told me..." 's. YES! God speaks to us. Of course! In a vast multitude of ways, many times very personal ways. But discernment is of the utmost importance. And everyone should take these types of things with a grain of salt and compare it with what God has put in their own heart and with what goes along with scripture. I think we would agree though, eh sister?

And I am very glad that you were healed of terminal cancer. It is a horrible disease.  My mom had cancer and had every treatment known to man and died at 45. My grandmother had the same cancer, refused the treatments and lived well into her 80's with no signs of the disease that they said was aggressive and she needed aggressive treatment. Go figure. I'm not saying that people should stop going to doctors, not at all. Just sharing what happened in my own family.


Ok, so basically the bottom line, at least the first question has been anwered. You do not expect to physically die. This is your hope. Ok, that's your belief. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. But I'm glad to at least now know what you DO believe, sister.

Perhaps the other questions will be answered eventually through other discussions. I won't bother you anymore since you said you are not feeling well. I hope you feel better. And Thank you for taking the time to answer some questions. I appreciate it!  :HeartThrob:


Now... Martin..  :winkgrin: are these your beliefs too?
I don't like to assume or lump folks all together.


peace.
.


(In case you missed it my response is in BLUE in the above quote.)


With all of that said. for me... Jesus death and resurrection gives us the hope that enables us to walk through this last enemy: death. The death of our loved ones and to face our OWN death with the eyes of strength and hope and confidence and not the eyes of fear. FAITH. Faith in the UNSEEN. For who hopes for what he already sees?

Going through the deaths of loved ones has been a constant traumatic event in my life.
Going through the deaths of loved ones has been a constant unveiling of His glory and power in my life.
Only GOD could make someone say THOSE two sentences at the same time.
Only GOD could transform the coal black depths of sorrow into actual.... laughter.
Actual laughter.
Blessed are those who mourn.
I understand the depths of that.
Blessed are those who mourn.
I get it. Through countless dark days and nights.
Through immeasurable fallen tears out of these little bird eyes...
I get it. He transformed my black sorrow, not only into joy...but at times, actual laughter.

There is nothing to fear. All is well.
If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
Being victorious over death for me, does not mean that I need to skip over the process of my physical body succuming to death and being cremated.
Perhaps, like Cardinal was saying... this won't be the case. Perhaps something will happen and life will change in a way that God will do something to stop people from physically dying. If that's the case that's fine, great. But for me, it doesn't matter. Either way, I am victorious through Christ.

But I will tell you, walking through death with Jesus by my side has been one of the most powerfully overwhelming things in my life to date.

peace.

will write more at a later time...
this is a big topic.
Because it has to deal with not only "spiritual" death but actual "physical" death.
But the "physical death" is what I am specifically talking about here.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 08:25:57 AM by sparrow »
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #119 on: November 08, 2009, 01:55:31 AM »

 
  Awesome  !!! James /aka Jabcat
  you did a  great job  explaining this   natural /physical   bodies   etc.!!!  thanks !  wish my printer was working ... its a keeper . :HeartThrob: 

Thanks Rosie.  God's blessings to you and yours.  :HeartThrob:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Raggedy Anne

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #120 on: November 08, 2009, 02:15:58 AM »
Quote from: Sparrow
Jesus death and resurrection gives us the hope that enables us to walk through this last enemy: death. The death of our loved ones and to face our OWN death with the eyes of strength and hope and confidence and not the eyes of fear. FAITH. Faith in the UNSEEN. For who hopes for what he already sees?

Going through the deaths of loved ones has been a constant traumatic event in my life.
Going through the deaths of loved ones has been a constant unveiling of His glory and power in my life.
Only GOD could make someone say THOSE two sentences at the same time.
Only GOD could transform the coal black depths of sorrow into actual.... laughter.
Actual laughter.
Blessed are those who mourn.
I understand the depths of that.
Blessed are those who mourn.
I get it. Through countless dark days and nights.
Through immeasurable fallen tears out of these little bird eyes...
I get it. He transformed my black sorrow, not only into joy...but at times, actual laughter.

There is nothing to fear. All is well.
If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
Being victorious over death for me, does not mean that I need to skip over the process of my physical body succuming to death and being cremated.
Perhaps, like Cardinal was saying... this won't be the case. Perhaps something will happen and life will change in a way that God will do something to stop people from physically dying. If that's the case that's fine, great. But for me, it doesn't matter. Either way, I am victorious through Christ.

But I will tell you, walking through death with Jesus by my side has been one of the most powerfully overwhelming things in my life to date.

peace.

Amen, Sparrow.  That is the way I see the power of Christ at work in us too.
Thank you so much for sharing from your heart with us in this way  :HeartThrob:

Anne
Ours is not to make up anybody's mind, but to open hearts.
You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #121 on: November 08, 2009, 02:27:17 AM »
 :cloud9: Me too, Sparrow........good post  :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #122 on: November 08, 2009, 03:21:50 AM »
The 120 year mark is broken, ww... :girlheart:


A 128-year old Uzbekistan woman may be the oldest person on Earth
Nigora Yadgarova
06/02/2009

UZBEKISTAN Tuti Yusupova of the Turtkul region of the Karakalpakstan Autonomous Republic in Uzbekistan may be declared the world's oldest person. Journalists report that according to her passport Tuti Yusupova is more than 128 years old.

Born on July 1, 1880, in Karakalpakia, which at that time was a part of the Khiva Khanate vassal state of the Russian empire, she married at the age of 17, bore two children, was widowed 60 years ago and has more than 100 descendants. For a long time, Yusupova worked on the construction of the local Shakhtaarna and Bogen canals. Local residents respect her qualities of honesty and enthusiasm, and youth listen to her exhortations. The long-living woman notes that she is in good health with hearing loss as her only problem.



Her age became known when officials decided to count how many people in the country had passed the 100-year mark. Last year, Yusupova and Uzbekistan's other centenarians were awarded the Shukrat (Glory) medal.

The main proof of the Uzbek woman's age is her passport. But because Yusupova has not undergone a gerontological examination, however, she has not yet been entered into the Guinness Book of Records. As of today the oldest person in the world according to Guiness is 116-year old Maria Luisa Febron-Mayler of Quebec, Canada,



http://centralasiaonline.com/en/articles/090206_year_nws/

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #123 on: November 08, 2009, 03:40:00 AM »
"Have not I written to thee EXCELLENT THINGS in counsels and knowledge, that I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?" The word "EXCELLENT", as used here, is the Hebrew word SHALISH meaning three-fold, or weighty. It is most interesting to note that Young's Literal translation renders it, "Have I not written to thee THREE TIMES with counsels and knowledge?" A free translation would run, "Have I not written unto you THREE-FOLD things?" Three-fold things. These are the excellent things of God. These are weighty things, things which have depth upon depth upon depth in their meaning. This three-fold principle is brought forth again and again as the Spirit unfolds the truth appointed for His overcoming company in this important hour.

While men speak of the "first coming" and the "second coming" of Christ, God's program is in THREES. God has promised to meet with man in THREE DIMENSIONS. He has met man historically and experientially in the first and second realms. I declare to you that He will meet with us dispensationally and experientially yet a THIRD time! The pattern is clear: "THREE TIMES in a year shall all thy males appear before the Lord thy God in the place which He shall choose; in the feast of UNLEAVENED BREAD (Passover), and in the feast of WEEKS (Pentecost), and in the feast of TABERNACLES: and they shall not appear before the Lord empty" (Deut. 16:16). God says that He will meet with man THREE times - in the three great Feasts of the Lord! "THREE TIMES in a year shall all your males appear before the Lord." To "appear before the Lord" designates not only an action on our part, but a reciprocal action on God's part. Not only must we appear, but HE MUST APPEAR! It is a joint-meeting in which WE APPEAR B-E-F-O-R-E_H-I-M, or as the apostle has so eloquently explained, "When Christ, who is our life, SHALL APPEAR, then shall YE ALSO APPEAR WITH HIM in glory" (Col. 3:4). When this three-fold aspect of His appearing is clearly understood, then the fact that the scriptures nowhere speak of just a "first coming" and a "second coming" takes on new meaning!

The Feasts of Jehovah were but types and shadows of those things that were yet to come. These Feasts portrayed in their typology God's plan for this world even to the very end of the ages. They bring to us the unfolding plan of redemption that was ordained before the foundation of the world. An Old Testament type is literally a word picture or an object lesson that pre-figures that which is to come. In another sense, it is an exact shadow of that which does not yet exist. The apostle Paul in speaking of those things which happened to Israel in their wilderness journey stated, "Now all these things happened unto them for ENSAMPLES (EXAMPLES), and they are written for OUR ADMONITION (INSTRUCTION), upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come" (I Cor. 10:11)."

--J. Preston Eby

Offline rosered

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #124 on: November 08, 2009, 03:47:05 AM »
  Ok Lol Just all of pages 5 and 6 and what Molly shared  of Eby .
 
  good stuff guys ,,
 I   loved that  about the foundations laid   so they can  receive ., Card  :cloud9:
 
    I am being enlightened   on things  that were just pieces  here and there  , nothing  solid  
 Wow !    special thanks to sparrow for  persevering   for answers brought  out  in the open   :thumbsup:

  if we  have  the  natural body and   spiritual body     from the  inccoruptible seed /Word  

 both at the same time here  it is possible for   death and life  at  once
  Do you think this is possible ?
 
It is all so thought provoking  :icon_flower:
 
  thanks  to you all,   and   especially  the GOOD LORD in His mercy on us
   :HeartThrob: