Author Topic: Who lives - who dies?  (Read 16489 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2009, 03:13:18 PM »
Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.




2Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

--1 John 3



Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.


Offline sparrow

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Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2009, 07:12:56 PM »
Excellent scriptural points, Jabcat.   There is an earthly body and a spiritual body. 

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 Cor. 5:1

See basically the entire book of 1Corinthians, particulary chapter 15.  It is all about the death of the body.

_________________________________________________________________________

Also, good to read: Hebrews chapter 4 and 5

_________________________________________________________________________

I began to quote a bunch of scriptures, but I know we all have our own bibles.    I cannot find anywhere in the scriptures that promises our earthly bodies will never die.  But there is plenty of promise that we are awaiting the redemption of our body (in a new body, not natural, not made of flesh and blood, not subject to death).  Jesus was obedient even unto death in order to bring many sons to glory.  He did not shrink from death.   He embraced/accepted it, with suffering, patience, and faith in his Father.  Was he not the pattern we are to follow?  I'm not saying seek death.  I don't think Jesus sought death.  But neither did he shrink from it in fear and unbelief.   Being able to face death is of paramount importance to me in my Christian faith.  And not only face my own death, but also to not be shaken (to the point of losing faith) by the death of my loved ones).  If I can overcome those things through Christ in this world, overcome the fear of death and the fear of dying and the fear of losing my beloved brothers and sisters to death, that is a major part of having overcome the world (IMO).  I suppose that is why I have a great distaste for the health and wealth gospel - because it is not honest IMO.

Anne... these are exactly my thoughts as well. Especially the bolded. Will come back later and share more. But FAITH in the UNSEEN, Strong faith when dealing with death, either your own or one of your loved ones... there is a lot of the power of God that comes into play when dealing with these things. God does a lot of work in people who are grieving. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.  To not grieve, is to miss out on profound works in our heart, from our Father. I know this firsthand. Up close and personal.

Do not fear, Jesus overcame the world.
And so shall we, though Him.

but we MUST walk THROUGH this valley of the shadow of death.
NOT around it.

Well, I have much to share on this topic... but will see where the conversation goes..
Peace.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 10:01:40 PM by Taffy »
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Raggedy Anne

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Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2009, 08:43:52 PM »
Quote
Anne... these are exactly my thoughts as well. Especially the bolded. Will come back later and share more. But FAITH in the UNSEEN, Strong faith when dealing with death, either your own or one of your loved ones... there is a lot of the power of God that comes into play when dealing with these things. God does a lot of work in people who are grieving. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.  To not grieve, is to miss out on profound works in our heart, from our Father. I know this firsthand. Up close and personal.

Do not fear, Jesus overcame the world.
And so shall we, though Him.

but we MUST walk THROUGH this valley of the shadow of death.
NOT around it.

Well, I have much to share on this topic... but will see where the conversation goes..
Peace.

Sparrow,
I think this discussion about death deserves a new thread, separated from the political health-care reform discussion.   I will look for you to start it, then if you don't want to, I'll start a new thread later.   No one knows when death is coming.  It is NOT in our control.  To pretend that it is seems very arrogant to me.  Isn't there even a scripture that tells us not to boast about tomorrow?

Thanks -
Anne
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 10:01:08 PM by Taffy »
Ours is not to make up anybody's mind, but to open hearts.
You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2009, 03:12:21 AM »
Quote from: sparrow
but we MUST walk THROUGH this valley of the shadow of death.
NOT around it.

I don't know that it says we must walk through it, but if we do, there is nothing to fear.  Note:  it is the shadow of death, a shadow cast over a narrow gorge [valley], that the psalmist speaks about, not death itself, --ever hear of being afraid of your own shadow?  Why would we be afraid of a shadow?

So where is he walking?  Through a narrow gorge with a shadow cast over it.  It is a place.

4Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me;...

--Psalm 23

"valley"

H1516
גּי    גּיא
gay' gay
gah'ee, gah'ee
Probably (by transmutation) from the same root as H1466 (abbreviated); a gorge (from its lofty sides; hence narrow, but not a gully or winter torrent): - valley.


When you walk through a gorge, you are walking in darkness--here the darkness is defined by a shadow that is cast by death.  It's only a shadow, but when in the gorge, it could be frightening.   But, we are not stuck in that narrow place of darkness.

Isaiah 9:2
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.



Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2009, 03:24:31 AM »
Bring them to me.

Amen Martin.

SQ

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2009, 04:08:09 AM »
The death that we die is to sin according to Romans chapters 6 and 7 so that we'd belong to Another. That's the death that's appointed to every man.  These bodies don't need to die.

Hi martin, I am trying to understand this quote (These bodies don't need to die).
I really don't understand, everybody dies at some point in time.
I am not trying to argue but understand.  :dontknow:

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2009, 04:15:14 AM »


Hi SQ.
That is a question that takes much wisdom, knowledge and understanding to give and receive.
While brother Martin may be fully capable to present it for your understanding, may I suggest some reading that is already available:
 www.kingdombiblestudies.org/priest/RP1.htm

SQ

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2009, 04:20:38 AM »
Thank you Beloved Servant, I will do some reading.
Thank you also for the beautiful music that you post here at Tentmaker.
I really enjoy it.  :cloud9:

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2009, 04:29:32 AM »
You're welcome, and, I am thinking of you!

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2009, 06:17:08 AM »


Hi SQ.
That is a question that takes much wisdom, knowledge and understanding to give and receive.
While brother Martin may be fully capable to present it for your understanding, may I suggest some reading that is already available:
 www.kingdombiblestudies.org/priest/RP1.htm

God has always wanted a priesthood. The priesthood is foundational to the outworking of His redemption and central to His plan of the ages. The covenant of God still stands today: "Now therefore, if ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be A PECULIAR TREASURE UNTO ME ABOVE ALL PEOPLE: for all the earth is Mine: AND YE SHALL BE UNTO ME A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS, AND AN HOLY NATION." Oh, beloved, come, let us now open our hearts wide to Him. Come, and as we gaze upon this glorious ministry and its life-flow to all the families of the earth, let us yield ourselves unto God that He may work His wondrous work in our lives, bringing us into such union with Jesus, the High Priest of our profession, that we become in nature and power His ROYAL.-PRIESTHOOD in the earth! The manifestation of the Sons of God for which all creation is in travail is nothing more nor less than the full manifestation of God's fully developed and empowered body of KING-PRIESTS AFTER THE ORDER OF MELCHISEDEK. Those apprehended unto this ministry are indeed, A PEOPLE FOR A PURPOSE!

--J. Preston Eby




12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

 13For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

 14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

 15And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

 16Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

--Heb 7


Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2009, 09:01:32 AM »
 :cloud9: Amen.......
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Raggedy Anne

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2009, 01:44:37 PM »
Bring them to me.

Amen Martin.


Since you two claim to be able to raise the dead, how about raising my mother and father up from the grave.  I'd like to have them over for dinner this weekend, but they are currently unconscious, asleep in their graves, and in fact, you are going to need some serious supernatural power to raise up my mother who was cremated in March.

Thanks!

Anne
Ours is not to make up anybody's mind, but to open hearts.
You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2009, 05:20:39 AM »
Bring them to me.

Amen Martin.


Since you two claim to be able to raise the dead, how about raising my mother and father up from the grave.  I'd like to have them over for dinner this weekend, but they are currently unconscious, asleep in their graves, and in fact, you are going to need some serious supernatural power to raise up my mother who was cremated in March.

Thanks!

Anne


That wasn't a claim, that's a HOPE of Glory as we learn to identify with Christ.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 05:29:32 AM by Beloved Servant »

Offline sparrow

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2009, 05:43:37 AM »
Ok wait guys. Reading back through this thread again... I am compelled to say the following:

What do people believe? Raising people from the dead? We don't have to die a physical death??

Please, (Taffy, Cardinal, Martin, ) if you wouldn't mind, can you guys answer my questions I posted earlier so I can understand what you are saying?

I think we need to get this stuff out in the open, guys... once and for all.
What do you think?

peace,
sparrow
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Online Seth

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2009, 06:51:05 AM »
Bring them to me.

Amen Martin.


Since you two claim to be able to raise the dead, how about raising my mother and father up from the grave.  I'd like to have them over for dinner this weekend, but they are currently unconscious, asleep in their graves, and in fact, you are going to need some serious supernatural power to raise up my mother who was cremated in March.

Thanks!

Anne

Lol.  :laughing7:

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2009, 06:58:15 AM »
25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages,

--Rom 16


[7But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.]

--1 Cor 2



9who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

--2 Tim 1



2 in hope of eternal life, which God,who never lies, promised before the world began.

--Titus 1

Offline Raggedy Anne

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2009, 09:38:17 AM »
Quote
I don't mean any offense by this, and maybe this is just me being slow, but I've noticed that people will often quote passages without any commentary whatsoever, and I don't think I've had one single time where I understood what they were trying to say.

Yes, Gab, I know what you mean.  But I don't have enough spare time to worry about obscure posts.  I just read them, and if they seem meaningless, I move on.

Anne
Ours is not to make up anybody's mind, but to open hearts.
You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2009, 12:49:48 PM »
Quote from: Gab
I don't mean any offense by this, and maybe this is just me being slow, but I've noticed that people will often quote passages without any commentary whatsoever, and I don't think I've had one single time where I understood what they were trying to say.

I thought it was clear what was being said.  There is a mystery that has been kept secret for long ages.
There is a secret and hidden wisdom which God decreed before the ages began.  It has to do with our glory.

Jesus saved us and called us to a holy calling [Melchizedec priesthood], which calling is based on an endless life.  These promises were given before the world began, and God doesn't lie.



Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.




"endless" [life]

G179
ἀκατάλυτος
akatalutos
ak-at-al'-oo-tos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G2647; indissoluble, that is, (figuratively) permanent: - endless.


« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 01:02:11 PM by Molly »

Online Seth

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2009, 06:45:15 PM »
Quote
"endless" [life]

G179
ἀκατάλυτος
akatalutos
ak-at-al'-oo-tos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G2647; indissoluble, that is, (figuratively) permanent: - endless.

Molly,
Just to clarify if you could. Why did you quote this definition, when in Titus 1:2 the word is "aionios" are you deriving that word from a scripture you did not mention in your previous post?



Online Seth

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2009, 08:25:31 PM »
Ok, I got confused. Lol, I thought you were quoting the definition in association with the previous 4 scripures, but I see that you were referencing the Hebrews scripture where the word appears in your most recent post.

The reason I brought that up is that there are different views of "aionios life" than being "endless life" and certainly if the NT writers mean "endless life" they were free to say "akatalutos zoe" consistently rather than "aionios zoe" but they didn't, which I find interesting.

Again I realize there are different views on that controversial word "aionios" but my view on "aionios zoe" as I have seen the compound phrase defined in the scripture does not lend itself necessarily to the concept of akatalutos, whereas the concept of "immortality" does.

In other words, another view of "aionios zoe" being consistent with the promise of the Holy Spirit unto deliverance from sin, can be distinguished from having received instant immortality, which I think is the main contention in this ongoing debate.

But conflating "akatalutos" from Hebrews with "aionios" from Titus does not solve that issue because they can legitimately be viewed as distinguishable concepts.

Offline rosered

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2009, 10:46:35 PM »
Ok wait guys. Reading back through this thread again... I am compelled to say the following:

What do people believe? Raising people from the dead? We don't have to die a physical death??

Please, (Taffy, Cardinal, Martin, ) if you wouldn't mind, can you guys answer my questions I posted earlier so I can understand what you are saying?

I think we need to get this stuff out in the open, guys... once and for all.
What do you think?

peace,
sparrow

  Hi Sparrow ,
 great  question   sis !!!
 
  Jesus spoke  in John  chapters 11 and 12 
 on these things , to me it is very symbolic   in meaning 
  because to me we are  " as dead " who do not know Jesus Christ or God
 
 
    to me the  literal death  of Adam  back into dust  as  he was  formed by God and God told him by the sweat of his  face  he would eat bread  , what was Adam going to eat of after eating  of the tree of knowldge of good and evil    and sweating to  eat bread
 
   these are symbolic  things to me    not so literal
 
  its is  knowing  God / Love  through Jesus Christ/  the bread of heaven 
 
   the dust of adam
  is also the serpents food is death  , dust eaters portion 
 that can be  also taken symbolically  , as scattered   thoughts of flesh
   I  do  believe that  this describes what I am trying to say here
 
  with  all in Adam who  spoke  the good and evil mix together
 
  this whole chapter  speaks of Gods mercy  for those  after they   go though   hell /death        sort of like being cut off    to me 

   God knows  I want to be claer here
  clarity is not my gift of God , and it is frustrating   to get out in words what your heart wants to share  :sigh: 
 
 Mic 7:17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the LORD our God, and shall fear because of thee
 
   I love the John chapters because  I can see so much glory and beauty in the Lords working though Jesus Christ  His love to help  people is amazing
 
  23Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." 24 Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."
 

25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"
 
 
 27She said to him, "Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world."
 
  this is one of my most favorite  passages sis !  what a promise huh!
 
  I hope Taff  or Martin or Card   will come and be more clear with this     
 
  I just feel that the Lord Jesus is leading us back to God from where we were seperated /as   one dead , like Lazarus  .
 
   Becasue God is the God of the Living  :HeartThrob:

 

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2009, 11:26:22 PM »
Quote
"endless" [life]

G179
ἀκατάλυτος
akatalutos
ak-at-al'-oo-tos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G2647; indissoluble, that is, (figuratively) permanent: - endless.

Molly,
Just to clarify if you could. Why did you quote this definition, when in Titus 1:2 the word is "aionios" are you deriving that word from a scripture you did not mention in your previous post?





Hi Seth, I was talking about the holy calling of Jesus--the royal priesthood--which is based on
akatalutos life.  That is a very strong word of which there can be no doubt--


one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.

--Heb 7:16


People were asking for scripture, so I am trying to provide scripture.  Here are some more on the holy calling--


An Holy Calling" (2 Tim. 1:9)

"The High Calling of God" (Phil. 3:14)


"The Calling of God" (Rom. 11:29)


"Your Calling" (1 Cor. 1:26; Eph. 4:4)

 "The Heavenly Calling" (Heb. 3:1)

Online Seth

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2009, 11:50:32 PM »


Hi Seth, I was talking about the holy calling of Jesus--the royal priesthood--which is based on
akatalutos life.  That is a very strong word of which there can be no doubt--


one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.

--Heb 7:16


People were asking for scripture, so I am trying to provide scripture.  Here are some more on the holy calling--


An Holy Calling" (2 Tim. 1:9)

"The High Calling of God" (Phil. 3:14)


"The Calling of God" (Rom. 11:29)


"Your Calling" (1 Cor. 1:26; Eph. 4:4)

 "The Heavenly Calling" (Heb. 3:1)

Yes I understood that you were referencing Hebrews per my second post.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2009, 01:04:28 AM »
25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages,

--Rom 16


[7But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.]

--1 Cor 2



9who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

--2 Tim 1



2 in hope of eternal life, which God,who never lies, promised before the world began.

--Titus 1



Timely post Molly before the world began!

Offline sparrow

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #49 on: November 06, 2009, 05:09:50 AM »
  I hope Taff  or Martin or Card   will come and be more clear with this     
 

Yes.. Specifically the questions that I have asked.

Thank you for your thoughts, rosered!
Will add them to my ponderings.  :HeartThrob:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.