Author Topic: Who lives - who dies?  (Read 18121 times)

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Offline Raggedy Anne

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Who lives - who dies?
« on: November 01, 2009, 01:48:28 PM »
I find these stories deeply troubling.  Our nation is fallen because of greed. 
http://www.namesofthedead.com/
Ours is not to make up anybody's mind, but to open hearts.
You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.

Offline sheila

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2009, 07:50:03 PM »
  I read the stories,Anne. I could easily add several 'names' to it,myself. I had a heart 'attack' last spring and didn't go to hospital coz of cost, survived though, found out what it was
at my regular check-up

   No doubt this world is really  'sick'. It's so sad,all the suffering.

   But take heart, and know, at the moment of their 'passing over' they are completely healed free of charge, and needn't ever have to worry about any need or provision for their lives,ever. For Father is a great provider...and He  will set things
 ARIGHT, Eternally. Til then, the whole creation groans

                                                Sheila

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2009, 08:34:54 PM »
 :cloud9: I had one too Sheila, when I was only 32, from the extreme stress I was under. The Lord spoke to me calmly and said, "You know you can rebuke this off you."

I said, "I know Lord, but if it's all the same to You, I'm so tired of all this and I'd rather go home."

The pain finally let up as I laid back preparing to die, and I did not go anywhere and told no one. Four days later, I went to a friend's bible study, and a prophet friend from Ohio walked thru the door and came straight to me and said the Lord said to pray for the healing of your heart.

A few weeks later He told me to go to a Benny Hinn crusade. Nearly as soon as I got there, before it even started, I felt like a heavenly fireball hit me in the chest and it knocked me backwards in my seat. I could barely move under the anointing of it for 20 minutes. He finished healing me.

God is able and He is no respecter of persons. I pray that He will finish the good work He has started in you, including restoration of your body, which is HIS body.  :girlheart:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Raggedy Anne

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2009, 09:24:29 PM »
Sheila,

Thank you for your comforting words.  I know what you say is true.   I see America as being a lot like the Roman empire, crumbling from within.   America's biggest export product is weapons and we have a military industrial complex that feeds our economy along with a very sick pharmaceutical industry.  D.C. is like a whore house.  That is just the condition of things.  Eventually the whole thing will completely fall.   I do not believe anyone can stop it from falling either because the whole world lies in wickedness and the Lord must judge.   Even death itself has a purpose.

The answer to my question is we ALL DIE.

Thanks for your comments, everybody.  - Anne
Ours is not to make up anybody's mind, but to open hearts.
You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2009, 09:28:01 PM »
We all die?  That's the answer?

No, the answer is this--

John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.


And the sooner we figure it out, the better.

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2009, 01:47:51 PM »
"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
 

--Samuel Adams, Christian Founding Father, 1776

martincisneros

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2009, 02:14:41 PM »
Okay, Molly.  Go raise the dead.
Bring them to me.
Have you forgotten it is appointed once for man to die?
I like Molly's growing boldness of faith in our Lord Jesus and growing clarity about Death being an enemy to be subjected to the Name. Our discipleship of the nations isn't to be a discipleship to awaiting their time to bow the knee to the last Enemy, but to life and that more abundantly, or as the Amplified Bible amplifies "to the full, until it overflows." When heaven is your throne and the earth your footstool in Christ, Death is just a punk to pick on every chance you get :Sparkletooth:

martincisneros

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2009, 02:16:57 PM »
The death that we die is to sin according to Romans chapters 6 and 7 so that we'd belong to Another. That's the death that's appointed to every man.  These bodies don't need to die.

I forgot to add when I first posted this post that Hebrews 9:27 was talking about the figurative death of the High Priest that as it was appointed for him to figuratively die for the sins of the people, i.e. "appointed once to die," so also Christ died once for the sins of the people.  Wasn't saying everybody had to die.  Was saying everybody died thru their High Priest.  Contextually it was talking about the Day of Atonement and making a case for the Blood of Christ having been shed and making an argument for Him as our High Priest after the order of Melchezedec.  Wasn't saying ANYTHING about ANY OF US needing to die.  That appointment was met 2000 years ago and Christ Jesus kept it according to the rules and in His raising from the dead our walking free from death was secured.  Otherwise, why bring up Enoch two chapters later as having had an inferior faith to ours that Lord Jesus has authored and is developing, unless the point is that we can now walk away from death and the grave and say no to it by the billions, in proportion to our discipleship to the Written Word?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 02:40:39 PM by martincisneros »

Offline sparrow

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2009, 07:34:28 PM »
You guys.... are you expecting to never physically die?

Are you expecting to live beyond 120 years old? 200 years old? 300 years old?

Why do you think you are not supposed to physically die?

There are reasons why death is no longer an enemy... but it doesn't have to do with "not" physically dying. It has to do with faith.

Are you all saying that something is going to happen between now and the time your body would (normally) have succumbed to physical death that will make you not HAVE to physically die, such as "the second coming" or (fill in the blank with your answer).

Or are you saying that there are people physically alive today that are over 200 years old?

How do you explain the deaths that are happening right now??

I know someone who believes similar to what you are guys are talking about, and she went through a great deal of pain because she feels she did something WRONG. She didn't have enough faith and her loved one died anyway. I think that's really sad.

I think you guys are possibly taking "death is the last enemy" and maybe seeing it wrong?

Please explain, guys.

"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Raggedy Anne

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2009, 10:36:36 PM »
You guys.... are you expecting to never physically die?

Are you expecting to live beyond 120 years old? 200 years old? 300 years old?

Why do you think you are not supposed to physically die?

There are reasons why death is no longer an enemy... but it doesn't have to do with "not" physically dying. It has to do with faith.

Are you all saying that something is going to happen between now and the time your body would (normally) have succumbed to physical death that will make you not HAVE to physically die, such as "the second coming" or (fill in the blank with your answer).

Or are you saying that there are people physically alive today that are over 200 years old?

How do you explain the deaths that are happening right now??

I know someone who believes similar to what you are guys are talking about, and she went through a great deal of pain because she feels she did something WRONG. She didn't have enough faith and her loved one died anyway. I think that's really sad.

I think you guys are possibly taking "death is the last enemy" and maybe seeing it wrong?

Please explain, guys.




SPARROW, I'M SO GLAD YOU ASKED THIS QUESTION!  I REALLY AM.  JESUS SAID TO FOLLOW HIM.  OUR BAPTISM IS INTO HIS DEATH.   SO I DON'T GET IT WHEN BELIEVERS SAY WE SHOULD ACT AS IF WE ARE TO THINK WE WILL NOT DIE NATURALLY.   I'M SHOUTING BECAUSE I'M HAPPY YOU BROUGHT THIS UP.  I WILL BE BACK WITH SOME SCRIPTURES  A.S.A.P. 
Ours is not to make up anybody's mind, but to open hearts.
You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2009, 11:13:57 PM »
Hbr 9:26   For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself


 Hbr 9:27   And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 


 Hbr 9:28   So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation

within its context , when is JUDGMENT?

do we all DIE ,then await Judgment?


or IS NOW Judgment upon the THE HOUSE of GOD? as  NOW is THE DAY of SALVATION...

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2009, 11:34:53 PM »
 :cloud9: Amen to the Death-fighters, I say.  :thumbsup: Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2009, 01:00:23 AM »


When we've been here ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun.
We've no less days to sing God's praise
Than when we've first begun.

Offline Seth

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2009, 04:51:38 AM »
I am not going to argue the issue of mortality....I just think it is troubling when a moderator flames the board (I'm talking to you Martin) to suggests that those who believe mortal death is part of the process is akin to "bowing their knee to the last Enemy."

« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 11:07:49 AM by Taffy »

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2009, 08:03:09 AM »
While victory over death is ours even if we should "sleep in Jesus," and death is not a sin (unless it is defying something contrary God has made known to you,) there seems no doubt Paul (Phillipians 3:7-21) was making the transformation of his body, attaining to the out resurrection out from the dead by any means possible, as the one thing he was doing.  This race is against death.  We are to pursue geting to the finish (mature, complete) line before death finishes us.  It is a way in God in us already.  I've had foretastes of it, finding myself in God as my embodiment as my flesh usually has been.  It is only a matter of maturing and being possessed (harpazo-ed) by God as His own.  This is something a generation of Overcomers will come into.  That is what will bring about a change in all the earth, because all mankind will be subject to a higher lifeform, the next phase of what humans evolve into that has begun to be manifested in Jesus.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline sparrow

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2009, 08:14:38 AM »
Hi guys...

Sorry... but can you guys (anyone) just answer my questions as I've stated them?
(some of them are clear cut yes or no questions, etc.)

thanks guys,
sparrow
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2009, 08:25:15 AM »
While victory over death is ours even if we should "sleep in Jesus,"

 :thumbsup:

there seems no doubt Paul (Phillipians 3:7-21) was making the transformation of his body, attaining to the out resurrection out from the dead by any means possible, as the one thing he was doing.  This race is against death. 

  :scratchhead: Not that I haven't been wrong about plenty before - but I thought by Paul referencing things like "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord", and "for me to live is Christ, for me to die is gain" meant he was considering the death of his mortal body to be an opportunity to be "face to face with Christ His Savior", and a thing he actually looked forward to.  Yet knowing he had a job to do and a purpose to serve as long as God kept his old fleshly tent alive.   Hey, if God wants me to live a thousand years, I ain't sayin' no.   :bigGrin:  He certainly knows what's best, and how to make me just what He wants me to be.  This is a new doctrine for me though, that I hadn't even heard of or considered until a few weeks ago.  Pardon me if I play the "Berean" role a bit.   :HeartThrob:

By His grace, James.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2009, 09:56:56 AM »
While victory over death is ours even if we should "sleep in Jesus," and death is not a sin (unless it is defying something contrary God has made known to you,) there seems no doubt Paul (Phillipians 3:7-21) was making the transformation of his body, attaining to the out resurrection out from the dead by any means possible, as the one thing he was doing.  This race is against death.  We are to pursue geting to the finish (mature, complete) line before death finishes us.  It is a way in God in us already.  I've had foretastes of it, finding myself in God as my embodiment as my flesh usually has been.  It is only a matter of maturing and being possessed (harpazo-ed) by God as His own.  This is something a generation of Overcomers will come into.  That is what will bring about a change in all the earth, because all mankind will be subject to a higher lifeform, the next phase of what humans evolve into that has begun to be manifested in Jesus.

 :cloud9: Amen........death is not a sin as you said above, but it IS a thief because it robs Him of a body to manifest in. And the last enemy to be overcome is death, and death is not overcome by dying, it is overcome by dying to self and NOT dying.

Reason it out; if the wages of sin is death and if you are swallowed up in the sinLESSness of Christ, how then do you die? The Israelites did not have to die to gain their inheritance, and neither do we.

The 7th day was no part darkness; not because there was no darkness, but because it had been swallowed up of life just like the mercy seat covered the death contained in the tablets of the law that ministered death when the mercy seat was removed as being their covering. Blessings....

The earnest we received was a down payment, just like you put a down payment on a house you intend to come back and INHABIT fully. We have been dying because of lack of knowledge of the Word that was from the foundation.   
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline sparrow

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2009, 10:02:20 AM »
So how are you guys going to not physically die?
What are those who DO physically die... lacking, in your eyes?
I'm just trying to get to the basics of what you all are saying...
Thanks..
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2009, 10:26:04 AM »
Hi guys...

Sorry... but can you guys (anyone) just answer my questions as I've stated them?
(some of them are clear cut yes or no questions, etc.)

thanks guys,
sparrow
Gonna be a long wait judging a recent thread where jabcat asked the same. :sigh:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Raggedy Anne

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2009, 11:18:56 AM »
Excellent scriptural points, Jabcat.   There is an earthly body and a spiritual body. 

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 Cor. 5:1

See basically the entire book of 1Corinthians, particulary chapter 15.  It is all about the death of the body.

_________________________________________________________________________

Also, good to read: Hebrews chapter 4 and 5

_________________________________________________________________________

I began to quote a bunch of scriptures, but I know we all have our own bibles.    I cannot find anywhere in the scriptures that promises our earthly bodies will never die.  But there is plenty of promise that we are awaiting the redemption of our body (in a new body, not natural, not made of flesh and blood, not subject to death).  Jesus was obedient even unto death in order to bring many sons to glory.  He did not shrink from death.   He embraced/accepted it, with suffering, patience, and faith in his Father.  Was he not the pattern we are to follow?  I'm not saying seek death.  I don't think Jesus sought death.  But neither did he shrink from it in fear and unbelief.   Being able to face death is of paramount importance to me in my Christian faith.  And not only face my own death, but also to not be shaken (to the point of losing faith) by the death of my loved ones).  If I can overcome those things through Christ in this world, overcome the fear of death and the fear of dying and the fear of losing my beloved brothers and sisters to death, that is a major part of having overcome the world (IMO).  I suppose that is why I have a great distaste for the health and wealth gospel - because it is not honest IMO.
Ours is not to make up anybody's mind, but to open hearts.
You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2009, 11:32:07 AM »
Thanks Anne.  I don't want to be a total knucklehead if God's desiring to show me something new and different.  On the other hand, I need to be able to go to the written Word and have it check out (with prayer and Spirit revelation).  God's will be done.  James.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 11:38:26 AM by jabcat »

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2009, 02:23:38 PM »
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
--1Cor 15


"sleep"

 G2837
κοιμάω
koimaō
koy-mah'-o
From G2749; to put to sleep, that is, (passively or reflexively) to slumber; figuratively to decease: - (be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.



Philippians 3
20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even  to subject all things to himself.

Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2009, 02:34:26 PM »
43It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.

--1 Cor 15



4When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

--Col 3





Offline Molly

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Re: Who lives - who dies?
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2009, 02:45:02 PM »
7so that the tested genuineness of your faithŚmore precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fireŚmay be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

--1 Peter 1:7



Called to Be Holy
 13Therefore, preparing your minds for action, and  being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

---1 Peter 1:13



Children of God
 28And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming.

--1John 2:28



2 Corinthians 3:18
And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continued to behold [in the Word of God] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of glory to another; [for this comes] from the Lord [Who is] the Spirit.


1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been fully and clearly known and understood [ by God].