Author Topic: Wheres the unity?  (Read 1867 times)

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Offline micah7:9

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Wheres the unity?
« on: August 25, 2011, 05:47:17 PM »
I am sure that it cant be just me who is totally amazed at how many denominations and sects there are in the Protestant belief alone. I was just surfing the net on sites with different titles and then reading the "about us" and "what we believe" statements.
And this verse came to me      Eph 4:3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the spirit with the tie of peace:

I certainly don't see any unity of the spirit in religion today, then again it may be just me. Could all these divisions be a reason why there are more atheists speaking up? I mean when people see all these sects and denominations, people who claim this and that about their belief, but they can't even have unity outside of their particular unity. Yeah its just me. :dontknow:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Wheres the unity?
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2011, 06:04:42 PM »
God did this on purpose

so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN."
[Mark 4:12]


It's a way of protecting the elect.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Wheres the unity?
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2011, 06:09:50 PM »
God did this on purpose

so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN."
[Mark 4:12]


It's a way of protecting the elect.

Yeah Molly thanks for the shake, I knew that. It just that it is so immense. Thanks again :grin:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Wheres the unity?
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2011, 08:46:26 PM »
I have been reading up on the catholic viewpoints for a change to see what they have to say. I have heard that there are prophecies where the church will reunite with protestants. That a great monarch will arise from France and unite the church under one king, known as king Henry or Charles. This king is suppose to change some of the traditions in catholicism, (maybe ET  :winkgrin:) and it will cause a split in the catholic church, a split that they believe is the great apostasy or falling away, because of this king who changes the church along with the a great pope commonly known as Peter the Roman.

I just wonder whether I or others here would be tempted to join the catholic church if this king changed the doctrines of ET.

But it has made me think that the Catholic church, that even now is the only church that remains a type of unity and they wish to unite protestants with them. Not sure what I think of this, as I do not yet fully understand Catholic history or whether I can trust them, but the sense of christian unity seems pleasant, just not sure how it will work, due to not only doctrinal differences but also differing styles of worship and atmosphere.



Offline Nathan

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Re: Wheres the unity?
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2011, 09:49:38 PM »
God did this on purpose

so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN."
[Mark 4:12]


It's a way of protecting the elect.

Yeah Molly thanks for the shake, I knew that. It just that it is so immense. Thanks again :grin:

Wait . . .what???  God uses division as his means of protection?  Not only does that seem out of God's character . . .i also don't see the connection of the verse that was quoted here.  You "do" realize that Jesus was quoting an Old Testament passage there, right?  The "context" of that original passage was pertaining to people who make their own images, and then worship the image they, themselves made, they become what they behold.  Just like the idol they worship, it has eyes but  can't see, it has ears but can't hear .. .the fact that they're blind and deaf to spiritual truth is evidence that they have already embraced their own image of truth rather than Truth itself.

But how one makes the jump from eyes that can't see to it's God's way of protecting the elect by bringing division in the church, which . .originally, consisted of the elect in the first place . . .I'm just not seeing it.

For me, the reason we have so many denominations and variances off of denominations is because people continue to take spiritual truth and mix it with natural reasoning which produces religious giants that have great reputations for how popular their brand is, but there's no breath in their mouths . . .much like the idols they've built for themselves to worship.

Offline Molly

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Re: Wheres the unity?
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2011, 09:58:23 PM »
You just contradicted yourself, Nathan. :winkgrin:

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Wheres the unity?
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2011, 12:04:37 AM »
I have been reading up on the catholic viewpoints for a change to see what they have to say. I have heard that there are prophecies where the church will reunite with protestants. That a great monarch will arise from France and unite the church under one king, known as king Henry or Charles. This king is suppose to change some of the traditions in catholicism, (maybe ET  :winkgrin:) and it will cause a split in the catholic church, a split that they believe is the great apostasy or falling away, because of this king who changes the church along with the a great pope commonly known as Peter the Roman.

I just wonder whether I or others here would be tempted to join the catholic church if this king changed the doctrines of ET.

But it has made me think that the Catholic church, that even now is the only church that remains a type of unity and they wish to unite protestants with them. Not sure what I think of this, as I do not yet fully understand Catholic history or whether I can trust them, but the sense of christian unity seems pleasant, just not sure how it will work, due to not only doctrinal differences but also differing styles of worship and atmosphere.

Dose'nt catholic mean universal? Or something to that effect.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Wheres the unity?
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2011, 12:08:28 AM »
You just contradicted yourself, Nathan. :winkgrin:

Yup, Yup, Awhuh, Awhuh :ok:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Wheres the unity?
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2011, 12:12:27 AM »
You just contradicted yourself, Nathan. :winkgrin:

Yup, Yup, Awhuh, Awhuh :ok:

It speaks volumes of a person's nature when they are the first to throw in a jab at someone who appears to have been put down.

And Molly . . .once again, you're going to have to do better than just accuse me . . .you need to bring some clarification with that.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Wheres the unity?
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2011, 12:45:53 AM »
Nathan those "jabs" as you call them were in jest. If you took them wrong Im sorry. :sorry:

 "pertaining to people who make their own images, and then worship the image they, themselves made, they become what they behold.  Just like the idol they worship, it has eyes but  can't see, it has ears but can't hear "(Nathan)
That is the denominations and sects and their workings,

"But how one makes the jump from eyes that can't see to it's God's way of protecting the elect by bringing division in the church," Nathan
God allows the division which does not effect the elect, the carnality in all the divisions are caused by the greatest of the idols of mens doctrines, and the idols of their heart.

"For me, the reason we have so many denominations and variances off of denominations is because people continue to take spiritual truth .."(Nathan)
I dont believe that the denominations and divided sects have any idea what a "spiritual truth" is.

Joh 12:35  Jesus, therefore, said to them, `Yet a little time is the light with you; walk while ye have the light, that darkness may not overtake you; and he who is walking in the darkness hath not known where he goeth;
Joh 12:36  while ye have the light, believe in the light, that sons of light ye may become.' These things spake Jesus, and having gone away, he was hid from them,

Joh 12:37  yet he having done so many signs before them, they were not believing in him,
Joh 12:38  that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he said, `Lord, who gave credence to our report? and the arm of the Lord--to whom was it revealed?'
Joh 12:39  Because of this they were not able to believe, that again Isaiah said,
Joh 12:40  `He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart, that they might not see with the eyes, and understand with the heart, and turn back, and I might heal them;'
Joh 12:41  these things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Joh 12:42  Still, however, also out of the rulers did many believe in him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing, that they might not be put out of the synagogue,
Joh 12:43  for they loved the glory of men more than the glory of God.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Wheres the unity?
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2011, 01:10:12 AM »
I have been reading up on the catholic viewpoints for a change to see what they have to say. I have heard that there are prophecies where the church will reunite with protestants. That a great monarch will arise from France and unite the church under one king, known as king Henry or Charles. This king is suppose to change some of the traditions in catholicism, (maybe ET  :winkgrin:) and it will cause a split in the catholic church, a split that they believe is the great apostasy or falling away, because of this king who changes the church along with the a great pope commonly known as Peter the Roman.

I just wonder whether I or others here would be tempted to join the catholic church if this king changed the doctrines of ET.

But it has made me think that the Catholic church, that even now is the only church that remains a type of unity and they wish to unite protestants with them. Not sure what I think of this, as I do not yet fully understand Catholic history or whether I can trust them, but the sense of christian unity seems pleasant, just not sure how it will work, due to not only doctrinal differences but also differing styles of worship and atmosphere.

Dose'nt catholic mean universal? Or something to that effect.

Yes I believe it does. On this website that is concerned about heresies, but you will read about pope John Paul, referencing universal salvation.

http://www.romancatholicism.org/jpii-quotes.htm




Offline Nathan

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Re: Wheres the unity?
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2011, 02:15:05 AM »
Nathan those "jabs" as you call them were in jest. If you took them wrong Im sorry
No need to apologize, I apologize to you for the misunderstanding.

"pertaining to people who make their own images, and then worship the image they, themselves made, they become what they behold.  Just like the idol they worship, it has eyes but  can't see, it has ears but can't hear "(Nathan)
That is the denominations and sects and their workings,

Absolutely agree.  It's also why I personally don't "want" so see UR become a religion or movement.  Not according to the current perimeters of what a "church" is in today's vocabulary anyway.  It's more about profits, business transactions and programs.  Not that there's anything wrong with today's church.


"But how one makes the jump from eyes that can't see to it's God's way of protecting the elect by bringing division in the church," Nathan
God allows the division which does not effect the elect, the carnality in all the divisions are caused by the greatest of the idols of mens doctrines, and the idols of their heart.


Two things, it doesn't explain the claim that it's protecting the elect, in fact Revelation talks about the elect being decieved . . .I think that was in Revelation . . .but either way I don't see how division protects the elect.

And I don't agree with the preface that God allows this or disallows that in this realm.  I do believe he intervenes but I don't see him at the "helm" so to speak where it's micro-managing every event or situation that takes place on this earth.  I think the earth sustains it's self under the order God established and because this is the realm of death as well as instability, everything is affected by those two laws.  And the authority over this realm was given to us through him.  So I'm not thinking God allows or disallows the division in the church, I think men do that all on their own.


Offline sheila

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Re: Wheres the unity?
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2011, 04:47:56 AM »
 I think there's no unity because the prophesied 'falling away' had to occur...and did, o'the bloody wars fought against 'heretics' and the tortures.

  a house divided against itself can not stand. Love was the perfect bond of union for those who hope in Christ..never complete unity of thought...

  except for Jesus Christ Crucified..because men have individual consciences..[with knowledge] differing stages of spiritual developement in their relationship

  and knowledge/understanding of the scriptures.And frankly we all have the whole world to overcome and are in various 'places'


. Many become 'stunted' in the  churches.....I have seen 87 year old babes that have attended 'church'

  all their life and never matured.  imo this is due to following men and not Christ,Holy spirit.   Paul addressed those who should have grown,but were in need of milk


     You can't tell the heir from the servant when their young....so,too, you couldn't tell the sons of God from the servant while still in Babylon...


   satan always seeks to devour when spiritually young,as that is when we are most vulnerable.


   Now Daniel prophesied that the saints were overcome...and this was 'allowed' by God,so no flesh could boast...saints'beleivers' sinful flesh have nothing

  over on 'sinners' 'unbeleivers/ non-church goers. flesh....so that it WILL ALL BE BY THE FREE GIFT TO ALL


   the spirit portion of Him in all of us can and does minister to the body[whole] and help it grow. My favourite thing in the fellowship is when each

  brings his portion and the light/truth shines through.. I ve' been blessed in the spirit by all of you.


   while none of us is subject to any other than Jesus Christ and the Father,contine following the spirit's leading, and let's honor the holy spirit in one another :HeartThrob:

   

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Wheres the unity?
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2011, 05:54:25 AM »
I think unity comes in the fire. Everyone will be salted with fire and every sacrifice seasoned with salt. Fire is the preservative, both the fire of persecution and the fire of the Holy Spirit.  Also, I believe the infantile sensibilities of Christians who are afraid to be challenged in their beliefs and sifted in the open forum of fellowship prevents maturity, and maturity is a primary source of unity as it says in Ephesians 4. People who hide, hide in the darkness, in the caves and under the rocks saying Hide us from the face of the Lamb and the one who sits one the throne"! I think the sects and denominations are like those caves and rocks.

 You know how in a tsunami the water is drawn a long ways back from the shore by the mustering of the coming wave? I think that it is very dry right now for similar reasons. A drought of the Spirit and a desert of the Word of the Lord in preparation of a coming tsunami wave of the Spirit.
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Offline micah7:9

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Re: Wheres the unity?
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2011, 06:52:09 AM »
Eph 4:3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the spirit with the tie of peace:

How many different God's is orthodox religion? I mean if all, had the unity of the spirit, do you think there would be any less

divisions in one religion than there is now?

I wont tell it all but it was a story by Mark Twain, who was an atheist, anyway a stranger walks into a church. Now this is the Civil War, and the congregation is quite as the stranger walks up to the pulpit, the pastor moves aside.
To make it a short story, the stranger said brother pitted against brother, should a mother have a son one on the union side and one on the rebel side. To which God is the mother to pray to bring her boys home alive?  Which God hovered over the union brother and which God hovered over the rebel brother?

Where is the unity.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline sheila

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Re: Wheres the unity?
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2011, 03:10:53 PM »
 very good points.....there's only one TRUE GOD...so the division resulted in a lack of understanding[in their minds/perception of God]...

   the SPIRIT OF TRUTH IS TO LEAD US INTO ALL TRUTH AS IT PERTAINS TO CHRIST. Now, sometimes,we may have a serpent in our hand..

  that we thought was a fish :mshock: and it may take us by surprize :mshock:...but we must remember it is a lack of love for truth that

  brings a strong delusion.  We've got to be TRUTH-SEEKERS AND LOVERS IN THIS REFINING..

   Jesus said,'If they do these things when the tree is green,what will they do when it's dry?"

Offline Molly

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Re: Wheres the unity?
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2011, 05:26:41 PM »
when I say it protects the elect, I mean it forces the elect to rely on their own relationship with Christ, the only mediator between God and men, and with the Holy Spirit, who will lead us into all truth.  They learn to please God, not men, which is not an easy thing since we are programmed to get along with our peers [for reasons of survival].  It takes and builds strength of character in Christ.

If we look at the history of the persecution of the church, it is not outsiders persecuting the church, it is insiders persecuting their own people.  So then we can see clearly the fruit of these shepherds. because when did Jesus ever say kill [in the case of the middle ages] or shun [in the case of today] those who do not agree with you?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 05:32:11 PM by Molly »

Offline sheila

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Re: Wheres the unity?
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2011, 06:06:21 PM »
    AND........sometimes a fish[eel] may look like a serpent at first glance.  :laughing7: Love it! Molly!   

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Wheres the unity?
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2011, 07:00:27 PM »
when I say it protects the elect, I mean it forces the elect to rely on their own relationship with Christ, the only mediator between God and men, and with the Holy Spirit, who will lead us into all truth.  They learn to please God, not men, which is not an easy thing since we are programmed to get along with our peers [for reasons of survival].  It takes and builds strength of character in Christ.

If we look at the history of the persecution of the church, it is not outsiders persecuting the church, it is insiders persecuting their own people.  So then we can see clearly the fruit of these shepherds. because when did Jesus ever say kill [in the case of the middle ages] or shun [in the case of today] those who do not agree with you?

Amen to the tenth power!
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com