When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin

[trettep]

BTW, where in the world did I say that the law was "abolished?" ....

You stated in an earlier post in this thread:

"God does not impute sin to us, meaning that he does not count us guilty by way of the law, which, through Christ's death was removed."

Do you understand the difference between "the law" and the "righteousness that is in the law?" One thing that has been a disagreement between us has been what the source of sin is. That disagreement will factor in here. Sin is in the flesh.

So, when the Gentiles had no law of Moses, sin was not imputed to them because they were not trying to please God. However, they all still REQUIRED deliverance from the body of death. The old MUST die before the new can be born. So even though the Gentiles did not have a law imputing their sin, they still had sin in their flesh to be delivered from. That is why Jesus died for both Jew and Gentile, the whole world.

The law was not formed to BRING SIN INTO EXISTENCE, otherwise it would need to be said that the Law was formed to create sin by establishing the possibility of transgression, rather than simply exposing sin as a pre-existing condition. That is why I do not think that "without the law there is no sin," only that it is not counted up. If, without the law there was no sin, the Gentiles would not have needed a savior, they would have had no sin, by your definition, to be saved from.

The Law of Moses was formed to point to a condition that already existed: Sin in the flesh.

I don't think that I have ever found another person that understand the Law of God better than me.  Not to sound boastful or prideful but you asked me if I understand the difference between "the law" and the "righteousness that is in the law".  And my answer is YES, I do.  I'm also not meaning to imply that you don't understand the law as well or more than me by that statement.  I'm just saying I have yet to find someone that understands it as well (outside our documented brothers of the scriptures of course).

I believe the Law was ordained unto Life.  The Letter is separate though.  I have used the analogy of the speed limit to explain this.  If you haven't seen that explanation from other threads let me know and I will explain it as it seems to help a lot of people understand it.  I can explain why eye for eye is actually ordained unto Life.

Paul

[Pierac]

Good word AS. God does not impute sin to us, meaning that he does not count us guilty by way of the law, which, through Christ's death was removed. The law was meant to expose to us, the sinful condition of the flesh, so that we may be delivered into Christ. What is evident upon being delivered into Christ is that our sin is being conditioned OUT of our minds and we are being saved FROM sin.

That God does not impute sin by the law, does not mean he is UNAWARE of sin, because if he was, he would have no reason to chastise us as a way to produce "the peaceable fruit of righteousness" in us by his grace.

Are you saying that God removed the law?  That would mean Sin is abolished and everyone is no longer a sinner.  But wait, Jesus said to NOT Think that He came to abolish the law (rut row).  That means sin is STILL here and still condemning those that practice evil.

Please clarify Seth.

Paul

The law is for the lawless, Paul. Do you know what that means?

But you need to clarify.  The lawless still exist, correct?  So Jesus didn't get rid of the Law because we still need the law to convict sinners of their sins.  Also, Jesus didn't get rid of THE law, only the law contained in ordinances (the letter).  For Paul says that by Faith we establish the Law - wouldn't make since if the law was abolished.  So the Law being abolished can only pertain to the letter.

Paul

Indeed!

Gal 6:2  Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

[Beloved Servant]

There's only grace, there's only love, there's only mercy and forgiveness and that's enough.

[Pierac]

Now to the real question!


Some people feel the Law can never be changed, even to the crossing of a "t" or the dotting of an "i."  Those who believe this will be shocked at what the Bible says. The Law of God can be changed and parts abolished if God so desires. This is Progressive Revelation in action.

To show that the Law of God can be changed, or even abolished, it is necessary to see how historically the Law of God started, developed, and finally became the Old Covenant. We need to see how the Law was changed and altered from time to time from Adam to Noah. It later changed: from Noah to Abraham, again from Abraham to Moses, and from Moses to Samuel, then from Samuel to Ezekiel the prophet, and from Ezekiel to John the Baptist, and finally to Christ before His crucifixion.
The former Law of God changed quite often, with additions and/or deletions, throughout the various periods associated with the men just mentioned.

Let's just review the vast differences between the Patriarchal and Mosaic Legal Systems:

•   Under the Abrahamic covenant, God allowed his people to offer sacrifices anywhere they pleased (Genesis 12:7, 35:1; Job 1:5). Moses changed this law by commanding only the family of Aaron to attend to the sacred rites (Exodus 40:1–16) and those sacrifices could only be offered on the altar in the Sanctuary (Deuteronomy 12:13–14).
 
•   Abraham planted a grove (or sacred tree) in Beersheba (Genesis 21:33), but under Moses the use of groves became prohibited (Exodus 34:14; 2 Chronicles 14:3; Isaiah 17:8).
 
•   Jacob set up a pillar (Genesis 28:18), but this was later forbidden by Moses (Deuteronomy 16:22, margin).
 
•   God said in the time of Noah: "Every moving thing [i.e., all animals] that lives shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things" (Genesis 9:3), but with Moses only the beasts mentioned in Leviticus chapter 11 were allowed or disallowed.
 
•   There were no official feast days commanded in the time of Abraham, but with Moses, ordained festivals became required periods for attendance by all Israelite males (Leviticus 23).
 
•   There was no commanded Tithing at first. Tithing was not a law in the patriarchal period. 2
 
•   None of the patriarchs wore phylacteries ( at least we have no record of such), but with Moses their use was commanded (Numbers 15:37–41).
 
•   The land did not have to rest every 7th year under the patriarchs (Genesis 41:34–35), but with Moses, the land rest was commanded (Leviticus 25:1–7).
 
•   Abraham married his half-sister with God's full approval (Genesis 20:12), but this became illegal in the time of Moses (Leviticus 20:17).
 
•   Abraham was confederate with his Canaanite neighbors (Genesis 14:13), but no leagues with the Canaanites were allowed in the dispensation of Moses. Indeed, the Canaanites were to be exterminated (Deuteronomy 20:17–18).
 
•   There was also no commanded Sabbath law in the patriarchal period. However, in the time of Moses the Sabbath was first introduced as a law for Israelites to obey (Exodus 20:8; Nehemiah 9:14; Ezekiel 20:12) with stringent requirements that changed the very character of the 7th day of the week. Moses had now emerged on the scene and a profound change in religious essentials had come into existence for Israel.

The differences between the religious system of the patriarchs and that of Moses were dramatic.  If a religious Israelite after the time of Moses could have been transported back to Abraham's time and witnessed Abraham (not knowing who he was) performing his religious duties, he would have called him an unconverted heathen. And though it is made clear in the Scriptures that God knew Abraham "obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws" (Genesis 26:5), those laws (the Law of God in Abraham's time) were very different from those later laws commanded to Moses and to the Israelites at Mount Sinai.

Indeed, for Abraham's first 99 years of life he was not circumcised,

And later
•   he built altars anywhere he pleased,
•   he raised up groves,
•   he offered no lamb at Passover,
•   he kept no weekly Sabbath,
•   he attended no holy feasts,
•   he wore no phylacteries,
•   he married his half-sister,
•   kept no land sabbath [that is, no Sabbatical Years], and  of  all things...
•   he was allied with the Canaanites.

What God did in the time of Moses was to rescind the religious requirements of the Patriarchal period in favor of stricter laws ordained in the time of Moses. The two religious systems were so completely different that if one were to mix the teachings together, utter contradiction and confusion would result. There is no compatibility at all between the two systems.

To be continued!

Paul

[Beloved Servant]

There's only grace, there's only love, there's only mercy and forgiveness and that's enough.

[Beloved Servant]

      shhh.....
listen...

                          www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V5lp2Lg53k

[Molly]

If you haven't seen that explanation from other threads let me know and I will explain it as it seems to help a lot of people understand it.  I can explain why eye for eye is actually ordained unto Life.

yes I'd like to hear your explanation.  thanks.

[Pierac]

In the time of Samuel, in order to give new laws that God designed to govern the kingdom of Saul and then David, Samuel opened the Book of the Law and added sections to it that pertained to the Kingdom of Israel then being developed.

"Then Samuel told the people the manner of the kingdom, and wrote it in the book, and laid it up before the Lord." 1 Samuel 10:25

Samuel actually wrote the new laws about the Kingdom (now found in Deuteronomy 17:14–20) and placed them in the Book of the Law of God which was in the Sanctuary (Deuteronomy 31:9, 17:18).

Indeed, Samuel had an example of another righteous person doing the same thing. Joshua also added new teachings to the Law. "Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God" (Joshua 24:26). As a matter of fact, when Ezra the priest in the 5th century before Christ finally canonized the Old Testament, he not only added all the later books to the Old Testament canon [which then represented the Law of God], but Ezra went through the first five books of Moses and made a number of additions to the Law where he thought it necessary. This editing by Ezra, and the addition of biblical books, was under the approbation and command of Almighty God and Christ Jesus agreed with it. ( 2Ti 3:16)

"For the Law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." John 1:17

The Christ while teaching in the flesh was placing the capstone on the Mosaic system of living by the Law. The Christ was prophesied to be a "second Moses" with greater power than Moses to be a legislator . Christ changed the Law of Moses drastically and had complete authority to do so. He had the backing of God the Father to do so. Look at the legislation giving Christ such authority. The Christ had the power to change any law He pleased.

"The Lord your God will raise up unto you a Prophet from the midst of you, of your brethren, like unto me; unto him you shall hearken; According to all that you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.' And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto you, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him." Deuteronomy 18:15–19

"The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he Jesus) [the Messiah] will magnify the law, and make it honourable." Isaiah 42:21

Now read Matthew with the idea that God's Law is now Magnified!

Mat 5:21  "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'  
Mat 5:22   In the time of Samuel, in order to give new laws that God designed to govern the kingdom of Saul and then David, Samuel opened the Book of the Law and added sections to it that pertained to the Kingdom of Israel then being developed.

"Then Samuel told the people the manner of the kingdom, and wrote it in the book, and laid it up before the Lord." 1 Samuel 10:25

Samuel actually wrote the new laws about the Kingdom (now found in Deuteronomy 17:14–20) and placed them in the Book of the Law of God which was in the Sanctuary (Deuteronomy 31:9, 17:18).

Indeed, Samuel had an example of another righteous person doing the same thing.  Joshua also added new teachings to the Law. "Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God" (Joshua 24:26). As a matter of fact, when Ezra the priest in the 5th century before Christ finally canonized the Old Testament, he not only added all the later books to the Old Testament canon [which then represented the Law of God], but Ezra went through the first five books of Moses and made a number of additions to the Law where he thought it necessary. This editing by Ezra, and the addition of biblical books, was under the approbation and command of Almighty God and Christ Jesus agreed with it. ( 2Ti 3:16)

"For the Law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." John 1:17

The Christ while teaching in the flesh was placing the capstone on the Mosaic system of living by the Law. The Christ was prophesied to be a "second Moses" with greater power than Moses to be a legislator . Christ changed the Law of Moses drastically and had complete authority to do so. He had the backing of God the Father to do so. Look at the legislation giving Christ such authority. The Christ had the power to change any law He pleased.

"The Lord your God will raise up unto you a Prophet from the midst of you, of your brethren, like unto me; unto him you shall hearken; According to all that you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.' And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto you, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him." Deuteronomy 18:15–19

"The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he (Jesus) [the Messiah] will magnify the law, and make it honourable." Isaiah 42:21

Now read Matthew with the idea that God's Law is now Magnified!

Mat 5:21  "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' Mat 5:22   "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. 23  "Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24  leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. 25   "Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26   "Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent. 27  "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; 28   but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29  "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into geenna. 30  "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into geenna. 31  "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; 32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. 33  "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.' 34   "But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35  or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING. 36  "Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37  "But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no'; anything beyond these is of evil. 38  "You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' 39   "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40  "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. 41  "Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42  "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you. 43  "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' 44   "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45  so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46   "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?  47  "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48  "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Indeed, God's Messiah came to magnify the Law! And so He did!  

Peace,
Paul

[Molly]

The Law of God can be changed and parts abolished if God so desires. This is Progressive Revelation in action.

Seems like the progressive revelation happens as God moves closer to man....?

He looks different up close than he does when he's far away.

[Beloved Servant]

Well, not to me.
It is I that is formed into His image.
Not vice-versa.

[Seth]

  The lawless still exist, correct?  So Jesus didn't get rid of the Law because we still need the law to convict sinners of their sins.  Also, Jesus didn't get rid of THE law, only the law contained in ordinances (the letter). 

That clarifies. We totally agree. 

[Seth]

BTW, where in the world did I say that the law was "abolished?" ....

You stated in an earlier post in this thread:

"God does not impute sin to us, meaning that he does not count us guilty by way of the law, which, through Christ's death was removed."

Right, referring to the law of ordinances which is contrary to us: "the middle partition." I think we are on the right track in agreeing on the difference between the law of Christ and the law contained in ordinances.

This is why I try to add "of Moses" which goes along with how Christ identified the "law contained in ordinances" simply as "Moses."

[Beloved Servant]

Well, not to me.
It is I that is formed into His image.
Not vice-versa.

[Seth]

Feed my sheep

Sure thing. But hopefully you will know that feeding sheep might involve some haylage (fine points)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/baalands/1033591491/

[Beloved Servant]

hmmm, that's what Peter said.

[Seth]

hmmm, that's what Peter said.

I didn't even know "haylage" was in the Bible.

[Pierac]

What did Moses say?


(Click on cartoon link below)

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6452.0;attach=539

Paul

[Molly]

Well, not to me.
It is I that is formed into His image.
Not vice-versa.

ah...then as man moves closer to God..might be a better way of putting it..

[aspiring son]

There's only grace, there's only love, there's only mercy and forgiveness and that's enough.

I like that song too.

our sins are gone, without a trace, there's nothing left now, there's only grace.

[Tim B]

The idea that God can't look down on sin is garbage. It makes no sense philosophically, and would totally make God incapable of dealing with sin, and in fact, he would not even be able to know that mankind has any sin. I mean, come on! If God "looked away" from sin, or was incapable of "looking upon" it, how would he even be able to "see" the human race, or at least, the human race's condition?

From what I've read about the verse that supposedly supports it, I think the best idea behind it is this: God cannot looked upon sin and not do something about it (eventually).

[Tim B]

What did Moses say?


(Click on cartoon link below)

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6452.0;attach=539

Paul

LOL that's hilarious!