Author Topic: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin  (Read 2753 times)

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aspiring son

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I don't know how many of you have heard this saying, but it's pretty common in the christendom teaching; that once we "accept" Christ as our saviour, he does not see our sin, but sees Jesus. I would like to debunk this. All opinions welcome.

1. God is NOT "looking down on us". Believe it or not it took a while for me to get this idea out of my head; that God was not literally up beyond the clouds sitting and looking down. How foolish it seems now. God is spirit( John 4-24), and intimately in everything beyond our comprehension. Col 1-20

2. If God does not see our sin, then doesn't that contradict the fact that you better stay the course or there's hell to pay? I find this to be very damaging to ones spiritual growth, not because of a false hell, but because that completely abolishes grace, and I mean Real grace. Grace in which he shows us our sin to teach us, then guides us by the spirit out of them. Funny how they say we teach that anyone can do anything they want and God is o.k. with it, when that's EXACTLY how they look at themselves.

3. It was taught at my pentecostal church that God had to turn his head when Christ was on the cross, because he cannot look at sin.  :mshock: ? So, God looks down from his rocking chair and sees only those that are saved, but will not look at the other 98% of the world. How does anyone "accept him" then?

There are so many holes in teachings we've all been exposed to. It's time to start posting and exposing, because somone will be looking for answers just as we were and still are. Again, all opinions welcome.

Grace and peace,

Brandon

Offline Seth

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Re: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2009, 11:04:21 PM »
Good word AS. God does not impute sin to us, meaning that he does not count us guilty by way of the law, which, through Christ's death was removed. The law was meant to expose to us, the sinful condition of the flesh, so that we may be delivered into Christ. What is evident upon being delivered into Christ is that our sin is being conditioned OUT of our minds and we are being saved FROM sin.

That God does not impute sin by the law, does not mean he is UNAWARE of sin, because if he was, he would have no reason to chastise us as a way to produce "the peaceable fruit of righteousness" in us by his grace.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2009, 11:09:24 PM »
1. I agree with you about God being spirit but I think there are good reasons for thinking God is somewher in a high place. But it might originate from pagan believes. (like the priest standing in the highest place)

2. I think it's very hard for an all knowing some not to see something when you even knew before it happened.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2009, 11:16:10 PM »
That God does not impute sin by the law, does not mean he is UNAWARE of sin, because if he was, he would have no reason to chastise us as a way to produce "the peaceable fruit of righteousness" in us by his grace.
I assume you never read Chick tracts  :laughing7:
God knows nothing. You are constantly filmed by an angle. That film is shown in courtroom and then you are judged.

Being aware of sin doesn't mean you don't turn your head. That said I think God is scared by nothing. Not even hyper sin.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Seth

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Re: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2009, 11:26:33 PM »
Yeah, it's very self-contradictory as AS said: on one hand they say that God cannot see our sin, and then they say that smoking a ciggy is a sin. What would it matter if God can't see it?

I think they take the statement in Hebrews 10 that God will remember our sin no more, as being that He will lack the knowledge of our sin. I don't view any scriptural interpretation as being anything that can contradict John's statement: God is bigger than our hearts, and he knows everything.

The remembrance of sin is by the Law, and God saying that he will remember sin no more, means that he does not impute our sin by the law, yet he still "SEES" it so that he can get rid of it within us.

aspiring son

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Re: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2009, 11:52:55 PM »
1. I agree with you about God being spirit but I think there are good reasons for thinking God is somewher in a high place. But it might originate from pagan believes. (like the priest standing in the highest place)

2. I think it's very hard for an all knowing some not to see something when you even knew before it happened.

I do not dispute at all God and his kingdom dwell in a higher Spiritual realm. The difference is the spiritual, not the literal.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2009, 11:59:27 PM »
I don't know how many of you have heard this saying, but it's pretty common in the christendom teaching; that once we "accept" Christ as our saviour, he does not see our sin, but sees Jesus. I would like to debunk this. All opinions welcome.


In this discussion I cannot get past here without someone who actually believes this to reply, because my first question is if God cannot look upon sin, how did he see our sin before we accepted.


Offline Seth

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Re: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2009, 12:00:47 AM »
Quote
I do not dispute at all God and his kingdom dwell in a higher Spiritual realm. The difference is the spiritual, not the literal.
Good word. When our minds are made spiritual, we have ascended, even if we are still clothed in flesh. That is how God has made us to sit in heavenlies with Christ.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2009, 12:06:08 AM »
                              www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyoVJfADlwo

Offline onlytruth

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Re: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2009, 01:42:56 AM »
good song beloved...I wish i had the gifting to make songs that touch the heart like that!When you listen along your heart just sings out with joy!
blessings :icon_king:

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2009, 02:05:37 AM »
As soon as we wake in the morning the war begins.
Stay in the consciousness of Him, every second of every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every month of every year of every decade of every century of every world without end. Amen.
He is the only life that is self-sustaining, and He has invited us to join that life within Him.
Knowing Him squabbling about the definitions of terms is worthless.
Only The Lord is self-sustaining and blessed are we to be asked to dine at His table.

Offline Seth

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Re: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2009, 02:21:14 AM »
I thank God that he opened my eyes to certain false definitions of words used to keep me in bondage to fear, pain and slavery of my former ET days.  :HeartThrob:

trettep

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Re: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2009, 02:27:12 AM »
Good word AS. God does not impute sin to us, meaning that he does not count us guilty by way of the law, which, through Christ's death was removed. The law was meant to expose to us, the sinful condition of the flesh, so that we may be delivered into Christ. What is evident upon being delivered into Christ is that our sin is being conditioned OUT of our minds and we are being saved FROM sin.

That God does not impute sin by the law, does not mean he is UNAWARE of sin, because if he was, he would have no reason to chastise us as a way to produce "the peaceable fruit of righteousness" in us by his grace.

Are you saying that God removed the law?  That would mean Sin is abolished and everyone is no longer a sinner.  But wait, Jesus said to NOT Think that He came to abolish the law (rut row).  That means sin is STILL here and still condemning those that practice evil.

Please clarify Seth.

Paul

Offline Seth

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Re: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2009, 02:29:07 AM »
Good word AS. God does not impute sin to us, meaning that he does not count us guilty by way of the law, which, through Christ's death was removed. The law was meant to expose to us, the sinful condition of the flesh, so that we may be delivered into Christ. What is evident upon being delivered into Christ is that our sin is being conditioned OUT of our minds and we are being saved FROM sin.

That God does not impute sin by the law, does not mean he is UNAWARE of sin, because if he was, he would have no reason to chastise us as a way to produce "the peaceable fruit of righteousness" in us by his grace.

Are you saying that God removed the law?  That would mean Sin is abolished and everyone is no longer a sinner.  But wait, Jesus said to NOT Think that He came to abolish the law (rut row).  That means sin is STILL here and still condemning those that practice evil.

Please clarify Seth.

Paul

The law is for the lawless, Paul. Do you know what that means?

Offline Seth

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Re: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2009, 02:36:10 AM »
BTW, where in the world did I say that the law was "abolished?" Do you understand the difference between "the law" and the "righteousness that is in the law?" One thing that has been a disagreement between us has been what the source of sin is. That disagreement will factor in here. Sin is in the flesh.

So, when the Gentiles had no law of Moses, sin was not imputed to them because they were not trying to please God. However, they all still REQUIRED deliverance from the body of death. The old MUST die before the new can be born. So even though the Gentiles did not have a law imputing their sin, they still had sin in their flesh to be delivered from. That is why Jesus died for both Jew and Gentile, the whole world.

The law was not formed to BRING SIN INTO EXISTENCE, otherwise it would need to be said that the Law was formed to create sin by establishing the possibility of transgression, rather than simply exposing sin as a pre-existing condition. That is why I do not think that "without the law there is no sin," only that it is not counted up. If, without the law there was no sin, the Gentiles would not have needed a savior, they would have had no sin, by your definition, to be saved from.

The Law of Moses was formed to point to a condition that already existed: Sin in the flesh.






« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 03:08:09 AM by Seth »

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2009, 03:05:12 AM »
Seth,
do you love me?

John 21:12-18

Offline Seth

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Re: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2009, 03:06:14 AM »
Yes I do.  :HeartThrob:


Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2009, 03:15:10 AM »
Feed my sheep

Offline Pierac

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Re: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2009, 03:28:58 AM »
The Gospel of Christ is the message that leads one to salvation. It shows the essential steps one must take to secure the goal that God wishes all to attain. That objective is not merely for us to be saved from something. God wishes us to be saved to something.

The central truth of it concerns Jesus Christ. It involves the reason for His life, His death, His resurrection, and His present existence. The Bible speaks of Imputation both in the Old and New Testaments, but the doctrine is given full discussion in the writings of Paul. We recognize what the word "Imputation" signifies. It is the noun form of the verb "to impute."  Which means "to attribute, to ascribe, or to lay to the charge of."  Any major dictionary defines the biblical meaning as "attribution of one person's righteousness or guilt to another." In simple language, it means to place the merits or the demerits of one person to the account of another.

1Co 15:3  For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

Not only were the sins and the punishment for sins imputed to Christ on our behalf, something else was imputed to us through the efforts and example of Christ Jesus. The fact is, the righteousness that Christ had while here on earth throughout His life can be imputed to you, me, and all in the world through our acceptance of Christ and His substitutionary role on our behalf. Christ came not only to die for us, He also came to live for us. While on this earth He lived a sinless life. He obeyed the Father precisely. He performed all that God ever demanded of any human and in His perfect performance He was totally accepted by God.

Throughout the Bible, God informs all people that His commandments must be obeyed for righteousness' sake and they must be obeyed precisely (Deuteronomy 32:46; Matthew 5:19). No one can enter into the resurrected life of the spirit unless he shows an active righteousness by keeping all the commandments. Christ himself taught, "If you will enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:17).

Yet we all fail to walk perfectly in the ways of God. No man has ever kept the commandments of God and shown absolute righteousness in daily life, whether he was a person of the Old Testament or one of the New. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). Yet, a strict performance of God's commandments is necessary to get salvation.
Note this point. Not only were our sins taken away from us and the punishment for those sins endured by Christ, but the important aspect of Imputation also involved the placement of Christ's perfect righteousness on the head of every Christian.

The fact is, we are all in the same human condition with Paul, the great apostle of our faith. Not one of us comes close to being moderately righteous, no matter how good we appear to be on the surface.

Since righteousness is demanded of God, how do we receive it? Paul tells us plainly how it is obtained. It is through faith (belief). It is by having faith in God. "Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Romans 4:3). Yes, Abraham received righteousness by exercising belief. Paul called belief in Christ a "righteousness of faith" (Romans 10:6).

But whose faith really counts in granting us salvation? Is it our faith? Is it our own belief? Paul said it is not our own faith that gives salvation. It is the faith of Christ. Only the faith of Christ has the power to save you, me, and all mankind. And while we are told to express faith on numerous occasions in the New Testament it is not our own faith that is efficacious in God's granting of salvation to us. Let us look at our personal faith for a moment.

Personal faith is important, but it has a problem. Though human faith is a precious possession, and though it produces a measure of righteousness that God will accept, it still cannot produce a perfect righteousness! It cannot be perfect because our own faiths are not perfect. The righteousness that personal faith produces is not the faultless "righteousness of God" that we must possess, the righteousness that God has. We must have spotless purity, perfect holiness, and absolute righteousness. Can our own faith, no matter how strong, produce these virtues? How can it when we are constantly saying to God, as did the apostles, "Increase our faith" (Luke 17:5). We must look elsewhere for the faith that will grant us "the righteousness of God" to have a perfect holiness.

"Knowing that man is not DECLARED RIGHTEOUS by the works of the law but by the faith of Jesus Christ ... not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no person be DECLARED RIGHTEOUS."(Galatians 2:16)

God DECLARES US RIGHTEOUS, even when we are not!

Paul makes it plain. It is possible for people to be reckoned as righteous, but only through the application of the obedience of Christ being imputed to us not through our own works.
This is why Paul said that righteousness comes to man as a gift. It is "the gift of righteousness" (Romans 5:17). All gifts, by the very nature of things, are free. And that is what Paul insists the procurement of righteousness is. "The free gift of many offenses unto justification" (Romans 5:16). Even the faith that we have to be saved is a free gift.

"For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God: not of works lest any man should boast."  (Ephesians 2:89)

Justification shows that Christians are now declared righteous by God but not by their own works. Our justification comes as a free gift from God. Let us now substitute the true meaning of Paul by rendering "to justify" by "to declare righteous." Note what Paul said,

"BEING DECLARED RIGHTEOUS freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."   Romans 3:24

The Bible states that you and I must keep God's commandments perfectly if we hope to be saved and one day be in the paradise of God. All God's just requirements must be met in the life of a human or he will never stand in the presence of God. In a word, there must be an active and perfect holiness in every human's life. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14). This necessity of possessing holiness is a recurrent one in the Bible.  In this strict requirement, humanity has a problem. The Bible shows quite clearly that no human is righteous in God's eyes. No matter how many good deeds one has performed, all of us have come short of practicing righteousness.  because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20 

The apostle Paul went even further in appraising himself (and the rest of us). He called himself "the chiefest of sinners" ( and gave his judgment about himself in the present tense, not the past).

Part 1of 2
Paul


Offline Pierac

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Re: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2009, 03:34:01 AM »
In the first 33 years of teaching the Gospel of Christ Jesus about His death and resurrection now being able to bring people to salvation, that salvation in Christ was ONLY given to people who were of the House of Israel.

Jews within the Roman and Parthian Empires who lived at the time were certainly of the tribe of Judah who were a part of the House of Israel. It meant that salvation could be given to them, but it could not be given to Gentiles IF THEY REMAINED GENTILES! In the 33 years of time that elapsed from Christ's crucifixion in 30 to 63 C.E., it was necessary for all Gentiles who were saved in Christ to become spiritual Israelites. The New Covenant relationship with God was given only to those who were members of the House of Israel and the House of Judah (Jeremiah 31:3134). Note what the clear word of God states:
"Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was an husband unto them, says the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord': for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Jeremiah 31:3134

As clear as God could make it, the New Covenant was to be made only with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. There is not one mention in this New Covenant relationship about participation of Gentiles who were not Israelites. And what did this lack of mention concerning Gentiles mean to the apostle Paul? He made it clear that salvation in Christ could only be given to the children of Israel and no other nation. Note what Paul said in Ephesians chapter 2:
"Wherefore remember [you Gentiles], that you, being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise [both Old and New Covenants], having no hope, and without God in the world." Ephesians 2:1112

Paul made it clear in the above statement, which was absolutely true and accurate, that as long as Gentiles remained Gentiles, there was not a hope in the world for them to gain a salvation in Christ. They were those "having no hope." Remember, the Old and New Covenants were made only with the House of Israel and if one was not an Israelite then such persons were "strangers from the covenants of promise. ... and without God in the world." This was a terrible plight for Gentiles to be in, but this was their fate. Simply put, Gentiles could not be saved.

However, there came to be hope, and indeed, even a victory for the Gentiles. A legal was was found that could get Gentiles saved along with the Israelites. This was by grafting Gentiles into the stock of Israel so that they no longer would be reckoned as Gentiles. This was the manner in which Gentiles could be called the children of Abraham and the Israel of God, and be accepted for salvation like the other Israelites. And Paul, in the four epistles to the first three ekklesias (the congregations in Romans, Corinthians and Galatians) taught that all Gentiles who accepted Christ as their personal Savior were now reckoned to be "in Christ" (Romans 12:5, 16:7, 910; 1 Corinthians 3:1, 15:22; 2 Corinthians 1:21, 3:14, 5:17; Galatians 3:27). Putting Gentiles "in Christ" gave them an advantage they had not realized before. Since Christ was clearly reckoned in a legal sense to be from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Jacob's name was changed to Israel), then Gentiles now attached to Christ were no longer acknowledged as "Gentiles" in a spiritual sense. They had now become "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16).

"For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you be Christ's, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs [along with Israelites] according to the promise." Galatians 3:2629

Similarly, Paul said in Romans 11:1336 that the Gentiles being "in Christ" (and Christ was an Israelite in whom there was no guile and a legitimate son of Abraham) made them also to be children of Abraham and Israel as was Christ or any natural born Israelite. And since it was clearly understood by Paul that "all Israel shall be saved" (Romans 11:26), this of necessity included the Gentiles who accepted Christ and were grafted into Israel. Thus, these Gentile converts were no longer reckoned as Gentiles. They were now "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16).

This was how the Gentiles could become partakers of all promises and covenants that pertained to the Israelites. This grafting into the stock of Israel made them able to be heirs of the New Covenant relationship that God was making only with Israel.

A Major Problem Developed with this Concept

While this spiritual teaching that Gentiles were now "in Christ" denominated them as being Israel along with the other Israelites, a question quickly arose concerning the required conduct of these new Israelites. Should they be circumcised as were ordinary Israelites? Should they keep the days, times, seasons, and years that all Jews observed and rejoiced in? Should these new "Israelites" be required to eat the clean foods found in Leviticus chapter 11?

Some Christian authorities, especially those in Jerusalem, felt that if the Gentiles were now going to be acknowledged as "Israelites," then it was only common sense they should adopt the same customs as the Jews. This included circumcision, Sabbath, and holyday keeping, the clean food laws, etc. This matter had to be worked out and we find much argument about it in the Books of Acts and Galatians (along with Second Corinthians chapters 11 and 12). In other words, should the Gentiles (now "Israelites") keep the Law of God revealed in the Old Testament and sustained by Christ while teaching in the flesh, or could the Gentiles be given some kind of special relationship different from ordinary Jews? This was the dilemma. What laws and customs should the Gentiles (now "Israelites") observe?

Remember the agreement the Jerusalem Church and Paul came to?


(Info taken from ELM)
Paul


Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2009, 04:01:31 AM »
Seth,
Do you love me?

Offline Molly

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Re: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2009, 04:11:37 AM »
Quote
Remember the agreement the Jerusalem Church and Paul came to?

/that it was ok for the Jewish Christians to continue with the law of Moses if they wished to, but it was not necessary.  And, that it was not necessary at all for the gentiles, for they are under the law of Christ not the law of Moses.

Thanks for that summary, Pierac.  I enjoyed reading it.

Offline rosered

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Re: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2009, 04:16:46 AM »

 
  I too ,enjoyed reading this Pierac   :HeartThrob:

aspiring son

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Re: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2009, 04:33:50 AM »
Pierac,   :goodpost:

God does more than see the righteousness in us by the spirit, he IS the righteous spirit in us, organic and more alive than any thing on this earth. How intimate the truth is!! :boyheart:

Grace and peace,

Brandon

trettep

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Re: When God looks down, he does not see our sin, he cannot look at sin
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2009, 05:28:03 AM »
Good word AS. God does not impute sin to us, meaning that he does not count us guilty by way of the law, which, through Christ's death was removed. The law was meant to expose to us, the sinful condition of the flesh, so that we may be delivered into Christ. What is evident upon being delivered into Christ is that our sin is being conditioned OUT of our minds and we are being saved FROM sin.

That God does not impute sin by the law, does not mean he is UNAWARE of sin, because if he was, he would have no reason to chastise us as a way to produce "the peaceable fruit of righteousness" in us by his grace.

Are you saying that God removed the law?  That would mean Sin is abolished and everyone is no longer a sinner.  But wait, Jesus said to NOT Think that He came to abolish the law (rut row).  That means sin is STILL here and still condemning those that practice evil.

Please clarify Seth.

Paul

The law is for the lawless, Paul. Do you know what that means?

But you need to clarify.  The lawless still exist, correct?  So Jesus didn't get rid of the Law because we still need the law to convict sinners of their sins.  Also, Jesus didn't get rid of THE law, only the law contained in ordinances (the letter).  For Paul says that by Faith we establish the Law - wouldn't make since if the law was abolished.  So the Law being abolished can only pertain to the letter.

Paul