Author Topic: When did the enemy fall?  (Read 1238 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5824
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
When did the enemy fall?
« on: November 11, 2010, 03:29:07 AM »
If the Lord God Jehovah the overseer and Master of all that He has created, is there a stronger foe, that perhaps He made, that is stronger or almost as strong and has more over the will and power of this creation? 
If there was a "fall" of an enemy that was given power that was almost equal to the supreme power of God, can scripture be given other than Ezk 28 and Isa 14 that such a "fall" took place?
Most turn to Revelation 12:7 but that particular evidence is far and away from the story of Genesis and creation, the beginning, that we have heard.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 03:47:41 AM by micah7:9 »
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Beloved Servant

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4290
  • David's sling
Re: When did the enemy fall?
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2010, 03:51:13 AM »



Colossians 1:17
   
New International Version (©1984)
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

New Living Translation (©2007)
He existed before anything else, and he holds all creation together.

English Standard Version (©2001)
And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

International Standard Version (©2008)
He himself existed before anything else did, and he holds all things together.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
He existed before everything and holds everything together.

King James Bible
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

American King James Version
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

American Standard Version
and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.

Bible in Basic English
He is before all things, and in him all things have being.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And he is before all, and by him all things consist.

Darby Bible Translation
And he is before all, and all things subsist together by him.

English Revised Version
and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.

Webster's Bible Translation
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Weymouth New Testament
And HE IS before all things and in and through Him the universe is a harmonious whole.

World English Bible
He is before all things, and in him all things are held together.

Young's Literal Translation
and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5824
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: When did the enemy fall?
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2010, 03:57:04 AM »
Selah.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline thinktank

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2672
Re: When did the enemy fall?
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2010, 05:04:44 PM »
The enemy is not as smart as God for he has declared that death will be defeated and he that has the power of death is thrown into the lake of fire.

Note that death is an enemy of God, not a friend or a cuddly toy to experiment with. Rest assured micah, that even from my viewpoint of the fall that God has total victory, my view point does not change anything set in scripture, but simply explains better in my view that God is truly good and there is no darkness within him and that death is an enemy who Christ defeated, but now needs to rescue the rest of his creation from its grip, a bit like the film the matrix, Neo is set free but now must fight to set others free also.

 I don't see why believing the scripture that God is good and that there is no darkness within him causes such a stir, maybe because it goes against long held beliefs  :dontknow:



Yab Yum

  • Guest
Re: When did the enemy fall?
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2010, 05:12:51 PM »
Justification is past and glorification is future, but meanwhile we are in the present, but all three are part of salvation. We are free from the guilt of sin but not its power, otherwise we would be face to face with God. Satan may have fallen but he hasn't been bound yet.

Offline Beloved Servant

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4290
  • David's sling
Re: When did the enemy fall?
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2010, 05:52:21 PM »



And then something awesome happened! The creation was thrust OUT OF Christ, lowered into this gross material realm. This we have verified in the following scriptures: "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:19-20). Again, "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8). I do not wish to appear to be "splitting hairs" nor do I wish to invent doctrines, but to me it is infinitely important to pay special attention to the word "foundation" in the passages just quoted. Foundation is from the Greek word KATABOLE, derived from KATABALLO, which is a compound of two words, KATA, meaning "down", and BALLO, meaning "to throw". The precise meaning of the word is "to throw down" and bespeaks, moreover, a rupture, breach, breaking or tearing assunder, schism, scission, fission - a disruption. It does not mean, as our Authorized Version has it, the establishing of the foundation of the world, but, conversely, the breaking up or disruption of the world! The Concordant Version of the New Testament correctly renders it thus: "Christ ... a flawless and unspotted Lamb, foreknown, indeed, before the disruption of the world." Again, "...the Lambkin which has been slain from the disruption of the world."

The question readily follows: When did this disruption of the world occur? It will be helpful to turn to Gen. 1:1-2 wherein we read, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The first verse contents itself with a simple statement of a consummated act. Not a word about the method, manner, means or procedure of creation, and nothing of its result. The second verse carries a tremendous suggestion of collapse in its touching picture of the Spirit of God brooding over the watery face of the formless void! Let us see what a careful word study of this second verse will reveal.

In the Authorized Version the text begins: "And the earth was..." This word in the Hebrew text is also translated "but", or "moreover". Thus in the Septuagint version of the scripture the text begins: "But the earth had become..." and this is the sense of the Vulgate as well. The second word to be noted is the one translated in the English Bible was". The Hebrew language lacks a word for "became", so the word "was" is always used to carry out the sense of "became". This phrase then literally reads, "But the earth had become..." Tohu v'bohu! This phrase, "tohu v'bohu", is translated in the American Revision waste and void". In the Authorized Version it reads, "without form and void", but the sense of this phrase is even stronger than that. The Septuagint says, "But the earth had become unfurnished and empty," the Vulgate says, "dreary and empty," and the Aramaic makes the strongest and clearest statement of all: "And the earth had become ruined and uninhabited!" Hebrew scholars have said that this is the clearest statement of all, as the term "tohu v'bohu" literally means "desolation succeeding previous life. The second verse of Genesis, then, literally should read, "But the earth had become desolate, ruined, unfurnished, disrupted, fragmented and chaotic, covered with water and shrouded in darkness. And the Spirit of God brooded over the face of the waters. Let us clearly keep in mind that all this is prior to the six days of creation, or re-creation. Isaiah states that God created the earth not a waste (Isa. 45:18) and Moses states that the earth nevertheless had become a waste.

When God lowered the creation from the realm of pure spirit existence in Christ, to the gross material realm, there occurred a mighty disruption, breaking up, or fragmentation. The creation was "made subject to vanity" and the whole downward process of disintegration and dissolution was begun. Just as our ascent back into the image and fullness of God is ever "from glory to glory," "from faith to faith," and "from experience to experience," so the process downward into fragmentation and dissolution continued through various stages and vast ages of time until the lowest depths of frustration were reached. — Eby

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW12.htm

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8429
  • Gender: Female
Re: When did the enemy fall?
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2010, 06:18:29 PM »
 :cloud9: AMEN.....He told me years ago, that He poured Himself into His creation, His exact wording was, FRAGMENTING Himself. This is why He told Adam they could eat of ALL THE TREES in the garden, BUT the one. Men are as trees, and all have had deposited in them a fragment of Him, the wealth of the wicked laid up for the just, to partake of in the Feast of TABERNACLES. And after Jesus fed the multitude, the disciples TOOK UP (raised up) TWELVE BASKETS OF FRAGMENTS (the 12 loaves of Christ in man, the manna from heaven, reunited). Glory to His name! Blessings....
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 06:21:32 PM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: When did the enemy fall?
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2010, 07:11:15 PM »
If the Lord God Jehovah the overseer and Master of all that He has created, is there a stronger foe, that perhaps He made, that is stronger or almost as strong and has more over the will and power of this creation? 
If there was a "fall" of an enemy that was given power that was almost equal to the supreme power of God, can scripture be given other than Ezk 28 and Isa 14 that such a "fall" took place?
Most turn to Revelation 12:7 but that particular evidence is far and away from the story of Genesis and creation, the beginning, that we have heard.


I think the concept of the "fall" has a premise that is not true.  The idea is that we were created perfect has always had the implication of being as pure as God, however even the introductiion of  "insert banned word for the use of explanation" doesn't explain it, it takes a flaw to choose to sin.   

There can be other reason,  for me,  our infantile state of being is the nature of our path,  however one wants to work it out, (I touched on most of my thoughts in the problem of evil thread so i won't repeat them here)  we were created flawed to begin with.


Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5824
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: When did the enemy fall?
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2010, 07:41:31 PM »
If the Lord God Jehovah the overseer and Master of all that He has created, is there a stronger foe, that perhaps He made, that is stronger or almost as strong and has more over the will and power of this creation? 
If there was a "fall" of an enemy that was given power that was almost equal to the supreme power of God, can scripture be given other than Ezk 28 and Isa 14 that such a "fall" took place?
Most turn to Revelation 12:7 but that particular evidence is far and away from the story of Genesis and creation, the beginning, that we have heard.


I think the concept of the "fall" has a premise that is not true.  The idea is that we were created perfect has always had the implication of being as pure as God, however even the introductiion of  "insert banned word for the use of explanation" doesn't explain it, it takes a flaw to choose to sin.   

There can be other reason,  for me,  our infantile state of being is the nature of our path,  however one wants to work it out, (I touched on most of my thoughts in the problem of evil thread so i won't repeat them here)  we were created flawed to begin with.

I believe not so much flawed as created for a purpose and very much in His plan.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: When did the enemy fall?
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2010, 07:56:10 PM »
If the Lord God Jehovah the overseer and Master of all that He has created, is there a stronger foe, that perhaps He made, that is stronger or almost as strong and has more over the will and power of this creation? 
If there was a "fall" of an enemy that was given power that was almost equal to the supreme power of God, can scripture be given other than Ezk 28 and Isa 14 that such a "fall" took place?
Most turn to Revelation 12:7 but that particular evidence is far and away from the story of Genesis and creation, the beginning, that we have heard.


I think the concept of the "fall" has a premise that is not true.  The idea is that we were created perfect has always had the implication of being as pure as God, however even the introductiion of  "insert banned word for the use of explanation" doesn't explain it, it takes a flaw to choose to sin.   

There can be other reason,  for me,  our infantile state of being is the nature of our path,  however one wants to work it out, (I touched on most of my thoughts in the problem of evil thread so i won't repeat them here)  we were created flawed to begin with.

I believe not so much flawed as created for a purpose and very much in His plan.


Understood,  the purpose is to become one with God through a process that must be.   However one wants to word it, we were not created as God to start with.  :)

Offline Beloved Servant

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4290
  • David's sling
Re: When did the enemy fall?
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2010, 09:09:16 PM »




If He created all things and He will be all in all and He is an all consuming fire then we're all going — through the fire!

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5824
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: When did the enemy fall?
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2010, 10:36:06 PM »




If He created all things and He will be all in all and He is an all consuming fire then we're all going — through the fire!

Amen.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.