Author Topic: what really is sin?  (Read 1494 times)

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Offline anti_nietzsche

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what really is sin?
« on: October 22, 2012, 11:38:51 AM »
I wanted to ask, how do we really define sin? What is sin, what makes something a sin?

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: what really is sin?
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2012, 12:14:57 PM »
I wanted to ask, how do we really define sin? What is sin, what makes something a sin?
Romans 5

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Breaking God's is sin. That's clear.
Breaking laws God hasn't given yet is sin also but we are not held accountable for those sins.

So I would say: Sin is the will/actions of man opposing the will of God. Either knowingly or unknowingly.
 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: what really is sin?
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2012, 04:23:32 PM »
The bible has an exact definition:

"Whatever is NOT of the spirit is sin." Romans 14:23

My own version of what sin is - any failure to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and also to love others as you love yourself.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

goodreport

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Re: what really is sin?
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2012, 05:00:29 PM »
Heb 11:6  NLT

And it is impossible to please God without faith.  Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him.

Rom 14:23 NLT
But if you have doubts about whether or not you should eat something, you are sinning if you go ahead and do it.  For you are not following your convictions.  If you do anything you believe is not right, you are sinning.

Rom 14:23  CEB
But those who have doubts are convicted if they go ahead and eat, because they aren't acting on the basis of faith.  Everything that isn't based on faith is sin.

Offline CHB

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Re: what really is sin?
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2012, 06:46:52 PM »
The flesh and law.

CHB

Offline anti_nietzsche

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Re: what really is sin?
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2012, 08:54:42 PM »
Haha, CHB, I think you nailed it. Paul called the law the power of sin.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: what really is sin?
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2012, 11:54:01 PM »
The flesh and law.

CHB
The law only shows sin (that was present before the law was  given).
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: what really is sin?
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2012, 11:58:57 PM »
Yep WW.
Paul said he was fine and then the law came and he died. God uses the law as a schoolmaster to show us we aren't the "good people" we think we are because "in me is no good thing" and "O wretched man that I am, who will save me from this body of death?"
The law reminds us that everyone and everyone else needs to have a saviour to do what we cannot do for ourselves.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline CHB

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Re: what really is sin?
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2012, 01:00:16 AM »
The flesh and law.

CHB
The law only shows sin (that was present before the law was  given).

When God said "thy shalt not eat" would you call that a law?

CHB

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: what really is sin?
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2012, 08:53:18 AM »
The flesh and law.

CHB
The law only shows sin (that was present before the law was  given).

When God said "thy shalt not eat" would you call that a law?

CHB
Yes. Or a command. Or regulation. Or expression of His will.

I think it can be called many things but not a suggestion.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline anti_nietzsche

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Re: what really is sin?
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2012, 12:26:00 PM »
Yes, the law is a kind of didactic tool, you're read, ded. But in the same time Paul makes clear that we're not under the law - Christ is the end of the law. The confusing thing is that in the end he nevertheless concludes that we erect the law.

I must admit that I am not a big fan of the jewish law. I do like some elements of it, the festive days, the foundation of love (the two greatest commandments), the social justice and security that is created by the jubilee years and the proscription of charging interest and so on.

But the laws that have to do with the sacrifices really freak me out, and as well the finding-gods-will-laws that describe how a suspect of adultery must be tested with dirty water from the tabernacle and all these things. They go against my vision of a civilized society that isn't based on causing fear. I'm pretty glad that I don't live in a theocracy.

I find it odd that frequently I encounter my Christ and he gives me a life of easiness and grace and fulfillment, and then I nevertheless get back into "law life" and become miserable because I either cannot fulfill its standards or because I cannot will myself to fulfill them because I find they are contrary to my values.

I'm sometimes wishing I could be a christian without being bound by the bible, ie a simple believer in Christ who could simply do his own thing and that's it. I mean, practically I can do what I want, but I always have this conscience troubles about the discipleship calls of Christ and all that. Life was easier when I was on my own and didn't have to "belong" to anyone ... though sometimes I see much sense in belonging when I actually sense my loneliness and that I have to die once and would get sick with something eventually and so on.

Last summer I got some visions of God and of how the afterlife is organized that made me rather happy and optimistic - that there is such a thing as a legitimate self fulfillment and that this is not proscribed by our faith. That it's going on in Heaven too really and that no one there complains if you want to live out some harmless eccentricity. Whereas here I am often so nervous and on-my-toes whether I am perchance ignoring God and his commandments.

What it comes down to, I think, is that God really wants us to live life very socially, because if that is not the case we can't live in love as much as it is necessary and right in God's views. Christ himself defines goodness as taking care of and supporting someone. Where I live this is organized by society and the government and for most people it's just a financial issue of paying taxes and social security and all that. But I'm not sure if this is really the vision of God and that in fact taking care of someone must be a personal act of giving and taking responsibility. IE, we're creating a cold and loveless society if we simply delegate responsibility for the needy to the state. But my fear is, if we make "charity" majorly a private and personal affair, this would surely lead to dependencies. I mean, it is my goal to have a flat and to live by myself again, I have a sickness and I am generally mentally fragile and cannot handle full time work, and so according to german law I am eligible for getting state side welfare support, which is pretty similar to drawing Financial Aid / Social Security in the states. Basically I would like to make myself a home somewhere and live as well as possible with the Aid that I get. But I frequently have conscience troubles because of this, other people have worse sicknesses than I have and they hold a job and support themselves anyway. I know about a man in India who has blood cancer and nevertheless he works nightshifts in guarding a depot.

That is where I must admit that I would prefer not to be a christian, in my old times I didn't bother thinking about these responsibilities and these conscience issues and that was it, I simply enjoyed my life and I was pretty content with everything. Now instead all these complexities give me a headache and many times the things of God simply spurn constant worries for me whether I failed standards and commandments and am just a leech to society.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: what really is sin?
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2012, 04:21:19 PM »
I know where you are coming from Anti-
As people, we want to contribute to society, earn our way, love God and others.
Without work to do, we feel useless and worse, a drag on society because there is no free lunch and somebody working is helping support those that aren't.
We would all like to be the "giver" in the sense that there is a lot of pleasure in giving and being in a position of having the power to give. For there to be givers, there must be receivers. We are all receivers of everything since God is the ultimate giver.
Being able to give gives us the illusion of power. Being in a receiver position, we have the illusion of being weak.
The book of Job is a tremendous book concerning these things.
Satan believed Job did what he did because of all God had given him. When everything was taken away, and I mean everything but his life, Job proved to be true but there was still room for growth and understanding.
IF, like Job, you are incapable of work, there is no shame in receiving enough to get by.
You say you liked it when you were self-supporting and on your own - that isn't quite correct since even when you don't think he's there, God is working his plan for your life and we are all fully dependent on his grace, love and mercy.
There are usually places that you could volunteer your limited time and abilities in some way. Hospitals almost always have spots like reception that would be available. In this way you would be "giving back" and not need to feel guilty. God can use anybody, I once heard a man preach that was paralyzed from the neck down and wow! was he incredibly powerful like Paul in his weakness.
If your open, God will show you what he wants. Stay in the word and pay less attention to what people say or think - it's "What does God say?" What is His word revealing to you?
 
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline anti_nietzsche

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Re: what really is sin?
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2012, 07:25:03 PM »
What God has been revealing to me lately was that the Law of Moses is not between me and God anymore, and that sin really seems to be something else than transgression of a DIVINE law, because there simply is no such thing, God is reserving his freedom.

Instead sin has to do with our own convictions, with the rules we live by, and some of them are traditioned to us, some of them we make ourselves. For example, I have the habit of almost never swearing, and for me this is almost a law, I follow it meticulously. But there are people who swear liberally and I don't think they're worse than me or that my principle of not swearing counts for them too. Morality is significant, but it is not given to us as stone tablets anymore, that was just for the jews.

What we do have as a commandment from God is that there should be courts of law, that there should be law. That is what God told to Noah after restarting civilization, and by extension that counts for us too. But the mosaic code of laws and regulations was given to the jews only. We can read that code, we should read it with an open mind so we can learn something, but ultimately we must actually be mindful of not making ourselves the servants of this code, because the codex is such that it is the power of sin and hence won't help us - I rather want my sin to be dead. There is nothing in NT scripture that allows us to keep the mosaic code, and this is not some advice or idea, it is almost a command in itself. Paul connected law-keeping to being a life after the flesh, and so we need to heed the spirit instead who takes pleasure in a far better concept of justice and righteousness.

The righteousness that we need and that we should pursue is based on the love of God for His creation that He saves from all significant perils to eternal life in Jesus Christ. And this righteousness we get for free, and it is activated to our consciousness by faith in Christ (to honor the UR connection) and it will come to everyone eventually, either in this world or in the world to come.

If I wanted to analyze my sinfulness (that I am missing the mark), then I don't go to the mosaic code, I go to the law of love. Love means something mutual, so I'm not just slaving once more, it's instead about a social reality of happiness that is to be achieved, including my own happiness and the happiness of my neighbor. What we're speaking about is, do I detest humans? Am I abusing anyone? Do I violate my own or the dignity of other people? Basically it is about things that really almost every human knows about, it's nothing new really. Bringing the mosaic code into this has no purpose. Humans can have morality and a sense of ethics without the law.


Offline ded2daworld

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Re: what really is sin?
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2012, 08:06:16 PM »
Anti- besides bringing us to Christ, the law had many health reasons which were unknown at the time. Here are some examples:

In the 1850-60's doctors would handle dead bodies and then, without washing their hands, examine pregnant women. Pasteur was made fun of with his bacteria theory but doctors began noticing more washing=less death.

You may not remember the swine flu epidemic and legionaires disease but they were killers from eating pork. Who knew that almost all pigs have trichinae worms in them. Yes, proper cooking destroys them but one is still eating dead poisonous worms and the disease rate is shown to be much higher among pork eating people. Less pork=healthier life.

Circumcision used to be done on the eigth day. Doctors only found out in the last 60 years that prothrombin, which helps prevent blood loss is at the highest peak in an infants life on the eighth day.
Because of difficulty cleansing it properly when uncircumcised, statistically a male is 35 times more likely to get penile cancer, a woman married to an uncircumcised male is 10 times more likely to get cervical cancer.

When meat is not handled in a kosher manner, the population also has more diseases. Kosher is to slit the cows throat letting all the blood out. "The life is in the blood" and so are diseases before they show up anywhere else.
Nowadays, a cow is slammed in the head so that all the blood remains. Why? because dead cows are sold by weight and leaving the blood in gets an extra 20 lbs. (approx) $$
Anyway, strangely enough the book, "None of these diseases" written by a medical doctor is a quote from the old testament and is a promise from God. This led me to Christ in the sense that human minds could not have known all the health reasons in the Jewish law without God's intervention. There had to be a God. If he didn't care for us he would 've let us kill ourselves with unsanitary conditions. Some of these truths about sanitation and health weren't discovered or realized till 3-4,000 years later.
I've only mentioned a few of the many things in the book.
Yes, there is nothing in NT that allows us from keeping the law as you said but there is nothing preventing it either.
Which reminds me, Paul told Peter and John to remind the new believers that did not know the jewish law not to eat strangled meat (Meat with the blood still in it) a health reason not a spiritual one. The same way you would tell your kids and you uorself would, "wash your hands before eating"
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline sheila

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Re: what really is sin?
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2012, 08:29:29 PM »
anti   I too had trouble with being on Social security disability.  when I went up in front of the judge

  to get it,I had prayed that Father would sit in His seat and judge it..and I received it.

   But still, I felt very worthless..and did not want to be a burden on society...and I asked Father about it.

   He told me..that of their own free will these governments passed these legal laws and took money out

  from the people for that specific purpose...and He looks at like a vow...that they must do as they say.

   when I feel worthless..one time He told me....that I had become more valuable to Him in my affliction

  of my flesh and the spiritual growth nurtured through my suffering...than I ever was while,working,prosp

erous...strong and healthy physically.

   another thing He pointed out.....Moses mother was paid by the government[Pharoah's daughter] to

  nurse her own son

   I know,someday He will heal me..until then, I take the opportunity of more free time..to concentrate

  on spiritual things..and be available to serve Him

Offline dajomaco

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Re: what really is sin?
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2012, 09:13:13 PM »
In my life the law has done it's work and is finished.
My awareness of sin ended when through faith I believed
what Jesus said on the Cross .It Is Finished.
My conscience is now open and softened to all aspects of Love.
I can joyfully say that this process a times was a mental
and logical strain.
I had to and still do work out my salvation daily