Author Topic: What IS "church"?  (Read 1206 times)

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Offline Cardinal

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What IS "church"?
« on: January 15, 2009, 06:36:19 PM »
 :cloud9: Sorry for the length of this, and it didn't seem appropriate to tack this on any thread we're currently discussing, so....my  :2c:

 :cloud9: Church: this is what I see, and it's "radical", I admit. But from the Word I see a "church" that is comprised of born from above, Spirit filled individuals. This is the only kind of Christian I could find in the Bible the first time I read it, and my opinion has not changed. References, such as the "church at Rome", means those that fit the above criteria, are THE church, not a building with a name on it, and not one particular gathering of people in one spot, but rather many gatherings in many locations, IF they fit the criteria above. They do not require any specific building; most had the first, "home fellowships". Occasionally, certain ones got to teach in the synagogues, but that was the closest it got to an "organized" domain.

 :cloud9: What would be the outcome of that? What would "church" be like if that was all we had? Would people still want to go if they found it required something of them, namely to press in (in a variety of ways) so that HE could have free reign to manifest through them making them to be a joint of SUPPLY, equal in "status" to all the others present, instead of sitting passively on a pew waiting to be fed? What if there was no preplanned "service", and all just came together to see what THE LORD wanted to do in our midst?

 :cloud9: Paul spoke of that very thing, but it was overlooked as the enemy of our souls found a point of contention to use to divide in the next part of this chapter, ie. the debate over what, when and where of tongues. Look at what he said was going on IN CHURCH.

    1 Corinthians 14:26-33
        26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

 :cloud9: When's the last time you were in a church building, and every one of you was given a song by the Spirit, revelation of doctrine, a word spoken through tongue and interpretation, a revelation or an interpretation of part of the Word given by that same Spirit? And if you got it, were you allowed to "disrupt" the preplanned "service" to give it?

 :cloud9: Christ was apportioned (earnest of our inheritance, earnest means portion, the priest's portion was God Himself) in the form of 5 divisions of His nature as it functions in the realm of the works of God. This was done by the Holy Ghost falling on them on the day of Pentecost, and was for ALL that went past those 5 pillars to get into the realm of the priesthood. When all were told they had to come to experience the feast of Pentecost, it meant ALL, it didn't mean some, and it didn't mean the supposed few "called" to be leaders over the others.

 :cloud9: Feast to our mindset is totally different to what God means. The Hebrew word there for feast means, "a divine appointment".

    Luke 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

 :cloud9: A kingdom has a King, and that Kingdom functions exactly according to what the King has appointed or decreed, according to his nature. We were appointed His Kingdom and the King/Head wishes to function through us according to His nature.

 :cloud9: His nature was/is to be revealed through the works of God in His form and function. Not through someone, in the sense of them just "holding the office", but HE HIMSELF manifesting though the individual AS the apostle, prophet, evangelist, teacher and pastor. This manifestation of His form and function has laid dormant within the body for the most part and are withered from lack of use, like the withered HAND of the man who sat outside the temple.

 :cloud9: The gifts of the Spirit that are what I call the "action" gifts, ie. something HAPPENS, are activated by the growth into one of these 5 fold gifts of form and function, generally also remain dormant except in a rarefied few.

 :cloud9: The 5 fold was intended to be the formation of HIS mature body, which is SPIRIT, in OUR earth, and as the hand of God. The action gifts are HIS BODY'S "senses",
 ie. how HIS body IN US, was to interact or react through us and in the world around us.

 :cloud9: Such as; He speaks, He heals, He builds up, He teaches, He encourages; all of these are represented in word of wisdom, word of knowledge, prophesying (speaking gifts), gifts of healings, miracles, ect.

 :cloud9: The church's primary reason for assembly is to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. The Spirit and the Word agree, and that's the Truth (pun intended). Put another way, when the Word (true 5 fold) and the Spirit (His "senses") are manifested equally, they produce the Truth and as He IS the Truth,  they produce Him, fully matured in form and function, in our midst.

  :cloud9: Just as with a natural hand it is impossible to dig a hole in the earth to bury a man and set up a tombstone (memorial stone) with only one finger, so too was it never intended that one finger (pastor) or even 2 fingers (evangelist) try to bury the "old man" and RAISE UP a memorial stone (Christ our Rock/righteousness) signifying the place where he died.

  :cloud9: Those 2 fingers can't "smite" that Rock to get the living waters to come out (resurrect) either, because they can't grasp the rod of AUTHORITY (upright heart) as the hand of God without all the "members" of the hand operating in form and function as well. So we ended up with a body that was lame, blind and dumb, unable to see the pattern shown in the mount means HE couldn't fully walk, see, or talk through us. This is why we have not experienced the things the apostles did.

 :cloud9: But He knew the end from the beginning and He knew it would take yet a new thing, to finish the WHOLE counsel of God. Blessings....



« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 07:03:47 PM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: What IS "church"?
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2009, 06:50:24 PM »
That is just beautiful!

I might say something when I get my jaw off the floor...

Offline Molly

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Re: What IS "church"?
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2009, 11:29:09 PM »
THESE ARE THE WORDS OF TED NOTTINGHAM


I'd like to speak with you today about the inner meaning of the teachings of Christianity.  This is a form of the religion of Christianity that is little known to the world.  You may know Christianity through the externals of what you see on television, what you see going on in churches, the rituals, the traditions, what you grew up with--All of these are the surface of a religion that goes back two thousand years.

Now religion means to relink, to reconnect us with Spirit.  There's a saying from a profoundly spiritual man from our century, a priest from Belgium, that Jesus did not come to bring us a new religion.  He came to put us directly in touch, in an intimate, personal way, with the Spirit of God, with the Holy Spirit, with the Higher Power from which we come, which has made us, created us, known us before we were born, lifted us beyond the animal world of senses into the true dignity of being human, which is the spiritual realm.  If that's troubling to you as a rational person of the 21st century, just think about it.  Our thoughts and emotions are invisible.  You can look at somebody from the outside and have no idea what is going on inside.  Sometimes, we ourselves don't know what is going on inside of us.  But our true identity is in our psychological, spiritual selves.  And, yet people identify themselves according to the surface. 

This mystery of who we are is what Jesus comes to unveil. That's what makes him a revealer of truth, that we are children of the Holy One, not just of our earthly parents,  Our potential is so much greater than we might imagine.  Our opportunity for peace, joy, happiness, fulfillment, all that we yearn for is possible in a way that most people miss, go to their graves not knowing. 

Just like we do not realize our true identity in the invisible realm, if you will, and only stick to what we see in the mirror, so, too, do we not realize that the church, Christianity, are only the outside , the vessel, carrying a cargo that is the truly precious materials that are offered to us by the grace of God.

The truth inherent in the revelation of Jesus is not found in ornaments and buildings and rituals.  It is found in the spiritual awakening, the stirring within that it creates for us.  It seems that many people are satisfied with that external.  It's comforting, it's habitual, it's familiar, it's nostalgic, and sometimes it does indeed enable, intensify that connection with the deeper things.  But make no mistake about it, we are not meant to stop at the surface, and quite often the surface keeps us from the deeper.  When religion is limited to that, that's when we get superstition, simplistic thinking, half truths, intolerance, disconnection between science and religion, all of the fragmentation that we know so well. So many highly educated people cannot relate to religion because they only see that surface.  Ironically, they don't see its true depths, so reject what they think is religion or the teachings.

These external religions also create the separation between the wisdom  of different peoples.  You see, we come very much closer together when the heart of the matter is unveiled.  when the best of Hinduism, and Islam and Christianity is uncovered.  Then we're dealing with people who love God, period. We're not dealing with enculturated  things, with prejudices of different times and places. We're dealing with an ecstatic love of God.  Think of the poet whose delight in the love of God caused him to dance spontaneously, and he gave rise to the dervishes of sufism, the mystical dimension of islam.  But we don't see that, we see what we see on the news now. 

The same is true of Christianity.  We see the televangelists, quite often selling us something,trying to keep
up their budget for their television programs.  We don't have presented to us the transforming, powerful truths that are at the heart of the Christian teaching. 


--TO BE CONTINUED

WATCH IT ON YOUTUBE, 'THE INNER TEACHING" BY TED NOTTINGHAM
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 11:33:54 PM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: What IS "church"?
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2009, 01:40:46 AM »
THE INNER TEACHING, by Ted Nottingham--CONTINUED--


So today, I would like to walk with you into that dimension.  It's astonishing to discover in the fourth century already in the Egyptian desert that kind of profoundly practical applicable teaching, a teaching that can heal you of your psychic wounds, was known and shared.  Great teachers, Evagrius,  Isaac the Syrian, John Climacus  who wrote the Ladder of Divine Ascent, down through the centuries, these men and women closely linked to the origins of the faith,  were sharing a wisdom teaching that was extraordinarily potent, and enabled people to truly connect with the spiritual dimension, with the spiritual reality that awakened their spirits and made them more than they would have been otherwise. 

And, that has been lost to us.  One of the reasons is that in 1054 AD, there was this great split between the Roman Catholic church of the west and the early church, now called the Eastern Orthodox church of the east, of the Byzantine empire.  So we in the west grew up in an environment completely disconnected from the great teachings and insights of the early masters of the faith, those spiritual guides, spiritual directors, teachers that came down from the traditions of the middle east where Jesus walked, where his apostles taught. 

We do find links down through history.  Those links between east and west are through the mystics, in particular.  It is the lovers of God, who believed in the experience of God, in tasting and seeing, that kept alive this flame of truth that can be verified by your own experience.  In the last 40 years, this has been rediscovered.  Finally, there are translations of these ancient teachings.  As we become one global community, all these things become more available.  So it's time for us to reclaim the wholeness of Christianity, not the middle ages, not the reformation, not the puritans, but the whole gamut of Christian spiritual tradition that was meant to be ours, offered to us.

If you want inner freedom from your worries and fears, if you want to develop a compassion that takes you out of yourself, all of these are available.  There is a knowledge, greek word gnosis, an inner knowledge about inner things that was at the heart of Christianity from the beginning.  In the second century, Clement of Alexandria, teaching of this gnosis--it would take three years for a new Christian to study before going to baptism.  Now we baptize children without much thought.  But there is a great science of the spirit to be shared, a psychotherapy if you will, that is alive and well and available to us. 

So you who seek for deep truth, for the mystery and sacredness of life, don't give up looking just because the externals seem to be the opposite of what they should be.  Keep searching.  It is to be found.  You will find that pearl of great price, in fact, you will be led to it.  So don't give up, and one day, you will be given that which will set your heart on fire, and you will become a new person, the person you were always meant to be.  May God bless you in this search.

Offline Molly

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Re: What IS "church"?
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2009, 04:14:47 AM »
17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

 19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.


 20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

 21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

--Luke 4



[to preach the gospel to the] "poor"

H6035
עניו    ענו
‛ânâv  ‛ânâyv
aw-nawv', aw-nawv'
The second form is by intermixture with H6041; from H6031; depressed (figuratively), in mind (gentle) or circumstances (needy, especially saintly): - humble, lowly, meek, poor`. Compare H6041.



9And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.

 10I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

 11For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.


--Isa 61




Offline willieH

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Re: What IS "church"?
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2009, 04:47:48 AM »
willieH: Hi there...  :winkgrin:

That is just beautiful!

I might say something when I get my jaw off the floor...

 :omg:  I agree with Molly, Rebecca... what a powerful and truthful set of words!

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...  :trampoline:

:gamer:  willieH  :angelharp:

martincisneros

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Re: What IS "church"?
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2009, 04:57:25 AM »
As far as what Church is, as it's used in the Scriptures: it's the English translation of the Greek word for the Senators of Christ's Kingdom.  In common English usage: it's taken on the meaning of the place where Christ's personified gifts to the Body of Christ's Senators attempt to accomplish all that the Bible teaches that the ministry gifts in the Body of Christ should be accomplishing where the Body of believers/Senators is concerned.  Some people look for controversy in etymology [regarding the word "Church"] when on other subjects they themselves would be the most suspicious of etymology, so that there's a little bit of a hypocrisy going on where that kind of thing is concerned with villifying the word "Church" and it's expression in the earth. 

As an institution it's believers/Senators in/of Christ doing their best to fulfill their best understanding of the Scripture's demands upon their lives and upon their fellow believers.  Of course there are abuses anywhere there are people and particularly more than a couple of people and particularly with people that have emotions that are easily hurt because of genuine or perceived abuses because of genuine or perceived attitudes because of genuine or perceived agendas -- and the hurts are real whether they're grounded in reality or not.  They're usually not, but the perception of abuse/neglect/falsehood can be more powerful than actual abuse/neglect/falsehood. 

You could perhaps find THE PERFECT "Church" someday that would meet every understanding of anybody's that the Scriptures say that it should be, and someone somewhere [and usually quite a few] will still have an accusation of  abuse/neglect/falsehood/hypocrisy/perversion/Babylon/theft/blasphemy/irreverence/shipwreck, et. al., etc., because people are going to be people no matter what's honestly going on.  Jesus and the Apostles were accused of all of the above, 2000 years ago, and have been accused of it throughout history.  How much more less exact or still growing representations??

martincisneros

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Re: What IS "church"?
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2009, 05:10:39 AM »
I've never bought into this myth that I hear sometimes that only the Body of the congregation knows what divine inspiration is and that any kind of structure necessitates a muffling of the move of God's Spirit, and that only the congregation knows what's Biblical "decently and in order."  God can as easily indicate in the planning of the service [in the days leading up to it] to stay flexible about through whom He manifests, if He's honestly leading the congregation to say such and such and it isn't just flesh on fire wanting to disrupt and cause confusion and quenching of the Spirit where the ministry offices set up in Romans, 1Corinthians, Ephesians, in the Pastoral epistles, Hebrews, and Peter's writings would be concerned.  Most congregations don't fast and pray enough for God to give them anything other than the Gerber that the Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, Teacher, Bishop, etc., etc., gives them based upon their best sense of God's Spirit from their own fasting and praying.  Strife cuts off any kind of depth coming from the anointing.  Jesus taught them parables as they were able to bare them according to Mark 4:24, 33 and St. Paul was hindered repeatedly at Corinth and various other places from giving them any depth because of the strife about the graces and appointments of Christ and other things that he addressed.

Offline Molly

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Re: What IS "church"?
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2009, 11:34:17 AM »
1 Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down,

--Isa 64



The opening of heaven happens at the baptism of Jesus--heaven is torn open--and a dove alights on the Beloved--



9At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

--Mark 1



[heaven] "being torn open"

G4977
σχίζω
schizō
skhid'-zo
Apparently a primary verb; to split or sever (literally or figuratively): - break, divide, open, rend, make a rent.



Is this the beginning of the reconciliation of God and man?

We see this word, 'schizo' again at the death of Jesus--


Mark 15:38
And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.


Heaven and the veil are both torn open and the reconciliation is complete--



 19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Hebrews 10:20
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;



20 which [he] hallowed to us a new way, and living by the covering [by a veil, or covering], that is to say, his flesh, [Wycliff]


And this way takes us through the curtain that is Christ himself.


« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 12:14:26 PM by Molly »

Online WhiteWings

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Re: What IS "church"?
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2009, 12:32:28 PM »
Mark 15:38
And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

Heaven and the veil are both torn open and the reconciliation is complete--

The veil was hiding the inner sanctuary from the average public. (right?)
Is the meaning of torning the veil that now everyone is allowed in that part instead just the priests?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 02:49:49 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: What IS "church"?
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2009, 02:05:01 PM »
Mark 15:38
And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

Heaven and the veil are both torn open and the reconciliation is complete--

The veil was hidding the inner sanctary from the average public. (right?)
Is the meaning of torning the veil that now everyone is allowed in that part instead just the priests?


:cloud9: YES  :thumbsup: It is the inner court veil which hides the Holy of Holies, where only the High Priest could go into once a year.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 02:09:49 PM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Cardinal

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Re: What IS "church"?
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2009, 03:30:04 PM »
1 Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down,

--Isa 64

The opening of heaven happens at the baptism of Jesus--heaven is torn open--and a dove alights on the Beloved--

9At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

--Mark 1

[heaven] "being torn open"

G4977
σχίζω
schizō
skhid'-zo
Apparently a primary verb; to split or sever (literally or figuratively): - break, divide, open, rend, make a rent.

Is this the beginning of the reconciliation of God and man?

We see this word, 'schizo' again at the death of Jesus--

Mark 15:38
And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

Heaven and the veil are both torn open and the reconciliation is complete--

 19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Hebrews 10:20
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

20 which [he] hallowed to us a new way, and living by the covering [by a veil, or covering], that is to say, his flesh, [Wycliff]

And this way takes us through the curtain that is Christ himself.

 :cloud9: GOOD study Molly....it lines up so perfectly with something He gave me a while back, so I'm going to add it. sorry about the length, but one thing just leads to another.... :winkgrin:


 :cloud9: All of creation is waiting on the manifestation of the sons of God, that's true.  And the word manifestation there means, of course, to uncover or reveal. But what is actually to be revealed or uncovered? It's not the Christ, for He has been revealed in varying degrees for 2 days now , the 2 days/2000 years of the inner court realm of Pentecost. Christ is a many membered body that is Spirit, and it is Christ that is/are the son(s), the seed of the Father. So who is it then, that all of creation is waiting to have uncovered?

 :cloud9: God the Father was IN Christ, reconciling all men unto Himself. Christ is the  seed that COVERS the Father, and it is THIS uncovering of the true spiritual sons of God of the Father, that all of creation is waiting for. This is why it says that unless a grain (seed) of wheat fall to the ground and die, it abideth alone, ie. without the fullness of the Father, too, in full manifestation.

 :cloud9: We, our natural flesh, are not the sons; the flesh profiteth nothing. This is why there are sons/Christ raising up, that are according to the flesh, both male and female. There is terrestrial flesh, and there is celestial flesh, and it is the celestial flesh of the Christ that must be laid down as it is that seed that beareth fruit after it's own kind, because it's own kind is the FATHER. What we sow, we reap. This is why if we sow the flesh (ours) we only reap corruption, but if we sow the Christ seed, His flesh, we reap incorruption of the Father, the everlasting life!

 :cloud9: The Christ seed, if you will, is the life that covers the everlasting life of the Father within. It is everything He has given us in this inner court experience, that literally forms what is Christ in us. The gifts, the titles, even the doctrines must be laid down as crowns at His feet. THIS IS the circumcision of Abraham, the father of our faith, who was declared righteous because of the SEAL of circumcision. Abraham was called to leave country (the land/earth you are comfortable in/your comfort zone), kindred (who are my brethren? those that do the will of my Father), and his father's house (carnal mind or the carnal minds you are submitted to), and lay his promised seed, his only begotten son of promise, on the altar. This is the message of the 7th trump.

 :cloud9: We are called to do only what we see our Father do, and He laid His only begotten son, the Christ on the altar, too. ONLY BEGOTTEN means, there's ONLY ONE, only ONE SON of promise, and that Son is Spirit enrobed in flesh. Christ IS the firstfruits offering! This is why it says you can't have the Son without the Father, nor the Father without the son, for each comes to REVEAL/UNCOVER the other.

 :cloud9: Hebrews 10 tells us the tabernacle is the pattern of things in the heavenly realms. The tabernacle had TWO partitions. The first, represents the veil of our terrestrial "flesh" that is "rent" when we go from the outer court experience of initial salvation to the inner court experience of the inner court/baptism of the Holy Spirit, as we partake of true communion, the bread/word eaten in the light of the candlestick/wine to the renewing of our mind. Those that hunger (bread) and thirst (wine) for righteousness shall be filled (with the fullness of God the Father=Holy of Holies experience).

 :cloud9: Christ apportioned Himself to us in the inner court realm of Pentecost in gifts, titles, ect. and as great as it's been, it is still only a portion, the earnest/in part realm of our inheritance. We laid down our flesh, our "veil" to enter into the Christ, and it is this veil that is done away with when we are no longer under the letter of the law that killeth, but under subjection to and IN the Christ, for the strength of the law is sin but if the flesh is "dead" then we are no more debtors to the law.

 :cloud9: We "died", (if we have appropriated it) if you will, and were resurrected into the SPIRIT of Christ. Christ laid down His flesh, which is celestial flesh, to enter into the Father, because flesh and blood cannot enter into the kingdom of God (represented as Holy of Holies). This is the second resurrection, and the rending of the SECOND veil, that is between the inner court and the Holy of Holies, which is the flesh of Him, that we must lay down. Blessed is he who takes part in the first resurrection (rending of our veil to enter into Christ), upon whom the second death (laying down the flesh of Him-rending the second veil to reveal the Father who is a consuming fire) will have no effect, ie. we can see Him face to face and live.

 :cloud9: If we die with Him (the Christ seed), then shall we also be raised with Him, into the presence of God the Father. This is the grand purpose of being IN CHRIST, and this is how He takes us to God the Father. Positionally, we received it, but not experientially, because we could not, for the time had not come---until now. So the promise therefore is IN Isaac/Christ/the flesh of Him being rent/laid down, not in Ishmael/the flesh of us being rent, for our life is hid IN Christ, and that life that is hid is the Father. Male children (the sons) were circumcised on the EIGHTH day, and then given their name/nature. This is when He says He will give us a new name, no man can know, after we receive the WHITE STONE. Why the eighth day? Because the 7th day of no part darkness represents Christ, whom we are to be IN, who is Spirit. For this reason, 8 speaks of a new beginning. The word beginning, in the Hebrew literally means, FIRSTFRUITS (of a ressurection).

 :cloud9: This is also why it says if Christ the Spirit had not risen then we would be as those that have no hope. Why? Because if the Christ had not ascended to the Father, then neither would we able to, because there is only one mediator between man and the Father and that is the Christ. This is why it says only ONE MAN has ascended to heaven, even Him that descended. Beloved, He that descended, was the Holy Ghost upon Mary/a type of our soul, that birthed the Christ. He that ascended was the same, which is how He shed forth that which they saw and heard on the day of Pentecost and is why He was not recognizable, and why they thought He was the gardener.

 :cloud9: He IS the gardener! He tends the Eden of God, removing that which offends and does iniquity (Matt. 13, one plants, and "weeds"), and He builds up and edifies the body (one waters) of the Seed that was planted in His likeness. But the increase is of, WHO? For God to give an increase/harvest means the harvest has to be the same type of body as the Seed that was planted. So then the Seed that arises is not the natural covering of the seed that was visible to the naked eye, but rather is a harvest, a many-membered body, yet ONE NEW MAN. It is sown in corruption (our flesh/the grave), but raised in incorruption (HG manifested as the body that cannot die, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world).

 :cloud9: This is why it says saviors shall ARISE on Mt. Zion. Let me rephrase that for you. SEED shall arise on the mount of God, ie. God prepares to procreate AGAIN with the souls/female part of men, producing HIS generation, over and over again, ie. the 42 generation that is Christ/Spirit, ready to lay down His life AGAIN. For unless a seed fall to the ground and die, it abideth alone. For this reason, the 42 generation is all that will ever be, because the Spirit of God is everlasting, ie. His Kingdom without end, because end speaks of death, and there is no death in His Spirit.

 :cloud9: So the promise is the FATHER, who is IN Christ reconciling all men unto Himself. GOD Himself is the priest's portion. Ever wonder why when He arose He still had the marks? It was so we would know we could lay down the FLESH of Christ and still live, for it was not just the natural marks they were looking at, but the marks of the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world, for flesh and blood (terrestrial) cannot enter the kingdom of God. First natural, then spiritual. But He has flesh and He has blood and it was this that went thru walls and ascended to the Father, when THAT veil was rent.

 :cloud9: This is why the Holy GHOST was not given until after He ascended to the Father. A ghost is a spirit that has lived in a body. A HOLY GHOST is one that has lived in a HOLY BODY, i.e.. the CHRIST body/veil that the FATHER lived/lives in, therefore that veil had to be rent as well, for He said if I don't go away (the celestial flesh of the Christ that was risen), another comforter will not come to you. Why not? Because the other comforter is Him in another form, a form without visibility, that comes upon our souls just like it did Mary, that in due season we would birth the Son, making that which was invisible, visible AGAIN, but this time in a many-membered body, ie. A HARVEST.

 :cloud9: Job lost everything the Lord God had given to him, which represented the flesh of the Christ, at the hand of the LORD, but that is the requirement for the double portion, for Job received double. Job said in the beginning I heard of God with mine ears (inner court) experience of hearing Him thru the gifts, but NOW I see Him with mine eyes (Holy of Holies experience). We are changed by what we perceive from glory to glory, thru the mind of Christ. It is our carnal fleshly nature to want to hang onto the FRUIT (gifts and callings) that looks so good to the lust of the flesh of our "Eve", but He was marred so badly so that none should desire Him.

 :cloud9: None desire us out here in the wilderness, either, because of the way we "look". We look like heretics that don't even know God, backslidden (they think), maybe even have a devil (they accused Him of same). The APPEARANCE of sinful flesh is merely doing it's job, as we are made of no reputation, stripped of all our "fine garments" (the gits, callings, titles, ect.) He had given us.

 :cloud9: For this reason, laying down the flesh of Him, looks bad to the lust of the eyes. That's why when He told the disciples the manner in which He should die, many left Him that same hour. And that's why many will not lay down everything to be made of no reputation as we have been, out here in the "wilderness". Taking on the image of sinful flesh is not pretty, not something the lust of the eyes covets. But Elijah, a type of the Christ, told Elisha what the requirement for receiving the double portion was; if you see (perceive thru the mind of Christ) the FLESH OF ME leave, then you shall have it.

 :cloud9: The veil was made of GOAT'S hair (image of sinful flesh) linen (speaks of His righteousness) and about 9 inches thick. Nine speaks of the fullness of His love manifested as the Christ = 9 gifts, 9 fruits, the number of knops and flowers on the golden candlestick branches. Only the hand of God the Father can rend this veil of the Christ, because no man can come to the Father except the Father call him.

 :cloud9: In Song of Sol. it says thou hast DOVE'S EYES = the only thing left in this flesh is the mind/perception of Christ within this image of sinful flesh, within thy locks (hair=glory); thy hair is as a flock of GOATS, that appear from mount Gilead. The word appear there means to caper as a GOAT. So the glory appears as a "capering" goat. And all along we thought the goat was only a bad thing, because we judged after the flesh, desiring only that which "looked good" to the lust of the eyes. Eve desired the fruit because it looked "pleasant".

 :cloud9: Gilead is a region EAST (kings come from the east; east speaks of that which comes from God) of the JORDAN (past the death of the first veil of flesh), and comes from root word that means something ROLLED away, heap of stones (lively stones=the Christ in each one), by analogy a SPRING of WATERS (He comes with a voice of many waters). This is why Gideon laid TWO offerings on the altar--one a cake, and one a kid (male GOAT). We must see Him as He is to be conformed into His image from glory to glory. Has He given you dove's eyes so that you can see Him as the image of sinful flesh, and thereby be changed into that glory? Do you see Him as the veil of goat's hair/linen that must be rent/flesh of Him laid down, to reveal the Father inside?

 :cloud9: When Jesus said "I am the resurrection AND the life", it was because He heard the FATHER speak this. The Father is the resurrection and the life! The Father also said, "I stand at the door and knock, and if any man will hear my voice (inner court) and OPEN (rend the veil) the door (Christ IS the door), then I (the Father) will come in and sup with him and him with Me." Christ, the Son, seed of God, is the door that must be opened. Open there runs into a meaning of opening the EYES. The eyes are not truly open until the veil has been rent. Father, open the eyes of our understanding, that we may see You as you are now, and dance/cavort as David did when He was stripped of the garments YOU had given him. The garments He gave us are anything not of ourselves, but of Christ who dwells within us and upon us. Blessings......
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 03:46:36 PM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor