Is God angry with His creation

[micah7:9]

2Co 5:19  To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

I get the impression, by some teaching, that God is/was angry with His creation. Some teach that Jesus is man's lawyer pleading for us as an advocate. I have thoughts, thank you.
Peace and Love Through Jesus

[Colleen]

I would like to hear your thoughts on this. I have really been struggling with this.

[Ross]

If I make something, how can I get angry with what I made because it is not doing what it is made for? That is effectively saying I do not know how to use what I just made.
On top of that the idea of being wrongly used by someone who claims to know what he is doing, when he has supposedly read all the manuls, yet has not spoken to the real maker. That seems to be the common case with many preachers.


I like the quote from Rom;9;22,23
" And if God, wishing to show His anger and MAKE KNOWN His power, bare in much patience with vessels of anger fitted for destruction, IN ORDER THAT  He might MAKE KNOWN the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy which He prepared beforehand for glory,
whom He also called,even US, not only from among the Jews but also from among the nations,"

Rom 11;32-36 " For God has shut up ALL together in a refusal to yield, IN ORDER THAT He may bestow mercy upon ALL.
Oh the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable His judgements!
And untraceable His ways!
For who has come to know the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counsellor?
Or who has given to Him first and it shall be recompensed to him again?
Because of Him
and through Him
and to Him are ALL things;
to Him be the glory to the ages. Amen!"

IMO our Father is teaching us. He is training us in the difference between good and evil. Practical lessons are the best way to learn, and even then we only learn AFTER the experience. So I see a living display of incredible patience being shown by our Father since He planned all this before the world began.
 If we went by man's interpretation of justice many people should be locked up or electrified for their sins.

[ded2daworld]

A guy asked me a question once where I was working as a bouncer. He sneeringly said, "If god is so great and powerful, why doesn't he just remove all the evil people from the earth."
I answered, "because if God did that, there wouldn't be a single person left on the planet."

Ross is right also in that we learn best by first hand experience. I've been told that the word disciple means "one who does" not one who thinks like the one he is following. Didn't Jesus say we are truly his disciples if we love one another?
One of my favorite non-biblical short quotes is, "The Learning is in the Doing."

[anti_nietzsche]

IMO,
Scripture often tells us about God in pictures and images and little stories. But in fact God is very different from us men and from how we project our own beings into what we think of God. So, basically, God has no long grey beard, He probably doesn't sit on a literal throne in a castle and He isn't constantly feeling anger about the world, even when people do a lot of evil there. I mean, God is not an old man on a throne shaking his fist against the Earth.

But God is definetly a person and as far as we are persons we resemble God, that's what the book of Genesis implies by saying God made us in His image.

And a person can disagree with what happens, He can have values and He can speak about that to us, through prophets, through the bible, through reason and natural revelation.

So what all of this means is that this creation, our world anyway, is not in order. There is evil happening and there is a lack of knowing God in the way He wants to be known, as love incarnate (Apostle John found this). What is important is to see how God is not angry with us as small little humans, He is angry with sin. He looks down from Heaven and sees everything that happens here. Suppose you would live in some appartment with TV's and monitors everywhere and they would always show perverted crimes - it's like God lives in such an appartment. He knows everything. But, on the other hand, there is still a lot of good happening on the world, and God sees that too.

So God is not really angry with his creation, only with the existence of evil on this world, in various ways. And it is His goal to spread His faith and love so people could escape evil and overcome it with good. And eventually Jesus Christ will come back and change absolutely everything. Opinions vary on what exactly will happen, but I think Jesus' Return will refuel the stars, end diseases, allow men to live far far longer than before and the devil will be taken away so this dark influence won't be there anymore either.

Until then, however, mankind's life must be challenged with natural evils and disasters. This doesn't mean God hates us or that He is even angry with us, it means that our ambitions need to be checked lest we think we are gods and pervert everything in an even worse way than things are perverted now. And with perversion I mean, the poor are neglected, children are abused, the elderly are mistreated, those who suffer find no kindness, and so on. It is such things God can be said to be angry with.

But please don't try to imagine God as angry. God is not an angry God. It's just the biblical way of speaking about it. I mean, what would the ancients have thought if a prophet came to them and said, "Dear People of the United Israel, it is my conviction that not so much first class felonies should happen in this fine country and that is why I will give you a precautionary punishment according to article X in our constitution". No, the prophet just said, God is angry with you.

Please get this right, our Lord is a pleasure to be with and His presence with us when He comes to us is friendly, majestic and kind, it often reminds me to the smell of incense in church.

[ded2daworld]

God is not angry with his creation in a sadistic, vengeful kind of way, but like when you love your spouse or child and they wilfully mess up or go against explicit instructions to their own detriment. It's more an anger of knowing the person could have done better but took the broad road with that particular act.

[Paul L]

No, Elohim God is not angry with his creation. Rather he is empathetic with the physical pain we feel when we are injured & sick.

So far as I can figure out, the Father personally never feels the discomfort of the pain that so often afflicts us via our central nervous system, but his only begotten son & our brother has felt those painful afflictions, that is why he is our advocate before our Heavenly Father.

The very best scriptures I have ever found that gives adequate, albeit incomplete, explanation for man's existence on earth is given in Ecc 1:13 & 3:10-11. God had a plan from the beginning that none other of his creation of all the beings populating heaven & the universe experience, and it involves the sensation of "pain". In these two scriptures, only humankind knows its' sensations, angels do not, Satan does not, evil spirits do not. Why is this?

The reason of the "why" of this is never fully explained because it is clearly stated in Ecc 3:11: "....so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to to the end". KJ. But we do know from the statements of Ecc 1:13 & 3:10 that our pain was planned by God for our "sore travail". Every human being God has ever put on this planet has been put here for the express purpose of "sore travail", with no explanation why God is doing it except to humble us by it.

No human likes the feeling of being humbled, we spend much of our lives trying to live above circumstances that humble us & create humiliation. We have created all our medical institutions to assist us in rising above what God has decreed as his purpose in placing us on planet Earth, and this is where man's conflict with our Creator arises. We imagine God is angry with us and consequently rains pain down upon us as if it's purpose is punishment, when in reality this is the smallest part of it.

......I have a few things more I could add to this, but there is so much summed up in Ecc 3:10-11, that if readers of Holy Writ would just understand that it was never God's intention to fully reveal his reasons for placing us on planet earth as flesh & blood creatures.

[CHB]

I don't think God is angry with the evil of the world since he created it. I think God uses the evil of the world to accomplish his purpose concerning mankind. Someday all of this evil will be turned into good and only God can do this.

CHB

[ded2daworld]

Right CHB   resistance = growth
You lift progressively heavier weights, you get stronger
You overcome sins and obstacles and you get stronger
The paradox is like Paul said, My strentgh is in my weakness.
Without realizing how weak we are and how dependent on God, our growth is stunted
and illusory for the stronger we think we are, the weaker we really are.

[Paul L]

I don't think God is angry with the evil of the world since he created it. I think God uses the evil of the world to accomplish his purpose concerning mankind. Someday all of this evil will be turned into good and only God can do this.

CHB

I'm convinced the real problem is our "anger" with God. He has placed us here in circumstances of "sore travail" while providing little or no explanation in his purpose in doing it. We are given only snippets for the "sore travail" as a  furthering the "humbling" process.

When we are physically afflicted it is a humbling process, we suddenly don't feel so high & mighty as when we are in perfect health & feeling no pain. Add to this the lack of knowledge of what comes after we die, the ultimate helplessness of our human state is realized, and we just don't like it, all as God intended as he has stated in Ecc 3:11, that he keeps to himself the reason he has created our "sore travail".

In 2 Cor 12:7 Paul provides us with an insight for his afflictions, he had a lot of knowledge few humans have ever been privileged to have, and God afflicted him with a "thorn in the flesh" for the express purpose of keeping him in a humble spirit. Have you ever noticed that it is the highest IQ people among us who are often the most arrogant & proud? Paul was one smart guy as a leader in the Sanhedrin before the road to Damascus incident, but God did not take Paul's superior intellectual capacity away from him when he smote him & gave him a "thorn in the flesh", God was using that "thorn" to temper his superior intellect.

It has been my displeasure to have to work in the company of some of the intellectually smartest people on the planet, there is not a humble attitude among them, most are atheists. This was the condition of the Apostle Paul, God had to fix that problem with Paul & smote him physically to make sure Paul knew & understood who was in control, this is what God is doing to the entirety of the human race, our problem is that we just don't like it, exactly as God intended.

[anti_nietzsche]

Not everyone of us undergoes the same "sore travail". For example, I have a warm room in a group home in Germany, get good food, have computer and internet, have some pocket money, etc. Others are much worse off, people in te Philippines, or in Africa or at certain places in Asia. So I think the travail has more to do with genuine human sin than with it being intended by God. It's just that we wished God would do something against it, but what exactly that would be we don't know, it's like asking for a miracle. But we won't get a miracle, it has to sink into us that we're sitting in one boat and that while God will help and bless us, we humans also need to get our act together make wide the doors for God. I don't think that God uses humiliation in his plan of salvation, that only comes in individual situations where really something good comes out of it (kolasis). And I have a thorn too, some demon that visits me since I was small. God didn't send him and in fact God is my escape, but God apparently refuses to turn my life into a complete paradise. He wants to be with me on the basis of love and faith, inviting me to manage the adventure of life with Him. So I'm not that big into issues of "why did God allow this particular evil" etc. It's a question that I think has no real satisfying answer. Let's just be fair and we will realize how the truly evil things don't come from God but are the result of sin, accident or of the devil. It's sad that the situation is like this, but one day it won't be anymore, and with some wisdom and love and work and "with a little help of my friends", we can shoulder this life.

[ded2daworld]

Like Paul said, "Be content in whatever situation you find yourself in."

[CHB]

Let's just be fair and we will realize how the truly evil things don't come from God but are the result of sin, accident or of the devil. It's sad that the situation is like this, but one day it won't be anymore, and with some wisdom and love and work and "with a little help of my friends", we can shoulder this life.

So, where did sin come from? Where did the Devil come from?

(Col. 1:16) For by him were ALL THINGS CREATED, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, VISIBLE and INVISIBLE, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, OR POWERS: ALL THINGS were created by him, and for him.

CHB

[Paul L]

Let's just be fair and we will realize how the truly evil things don't come from God but are the result of sin, accident or of the devil. It's sad that the situation is like this, but one day it won't be anymore, and with some wisdom and love and work and "with a little help of my friends", we can shoulder this life.

So, where did sin come from? Where did the Devil come from?

(Col. 1:16) For by him were ALL THINGS CREATED, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, VISIBLE and INVISIBLE, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, OR POWERS: ALL THINGS were created by him, and for him.

CHB

And by the words of Col 1:16, we must conclude God intended for "evil" to be present in his creation or he would never have created the "evil one" (Satan). If at the moment God created us such that our every need & desire would materialize at the moment of a wishful thought, what would there be to be thankful for? We need the contrasting environment of "good" on the one hand & "evil" on the other to learn to be thankful to God as our Father & Creator.

I'm convinced our presence on this earth, suffering  as we often do, is a requirement for the job ahead of us, God simply has not told us what exactly that job is other than a clue given by the apostle Paul that "we shall judge angels". Our short passage of time through this painful Earthly life is God using this earthly life cycle to prepare our resume for the job in front of us, he is presently qualifying us for a job ahead he's told us little about, our biggest problem is we do not like things we do not understand. While we do not like things we do not understand,  Christ fully understood it long before he came to earth, that is why he did not complain about the torturous ordeal of having to go to the cross of the Roman torture stake.

[Ross]

right on

[micah7:9]

I don't think God is angry with the evil of the world since he created it. I think God uses the evil of the world to accomplish his purpose concerning mankind. Someday all of this evil will be turned into good and only God can do this.

CHB

I'm convinced the real problem is our "anger" with God. He has placed us here in circumstances of "sore travail" while providing little or no explanation in his purpose in doing it. We are given only snippets for the "sore travail" as a  furthering the "humbling" process.

When we are physically afflicted it is a humbling process, we suddenly don't feel so high & mighty as when we are in perfect health & feeling no pain. Add to this the lack of knowledge of what comes after we die, the ultimate helplessness of our human state is realized, and we just don't like it, all as God intended as he has stated in Ecc 3:11, that he keeps to himself the reason he has created our "sore travail".

In 2 Cor 12:7 Paul provides us with an insight for his afflictions, he had a lot of knowledge few humans have ever been privileged to have, and God afflicted him with a "thorn in the flesh" for the express purpose of keeping him in a humble spirit. Have you ever noticed that it is the highest IQ people among us who are often the most arrogant & proud? Paul was one smart guy as a leader in the Sanhedrin before the road to Damascus incident, but God did not take Paul's superior intellectual capacity away from him when he smote him & gave him a "thorn in the flesh", God was using that "thorn" to temper his superior intellect.

It has been my displeasure to have to work in the company of some of the intellectually smartest people on the planet, there is not a humble attitude among them, most are atheists. This was the condition of the Apostle Paul, God had to fix that problem with Paul & smote him physically to make sure Paul knew & understood who was in control, this is what God is doing to the entirety of the human race, our problem is that we just don't like it, exactly as God intended.

"I'm convinced the real problem is our "anger" with God....."
Thus  2Co 5:18  And the all things are of God, who reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and did give to us the ministration of the reconciliation,
2Co 5:19  how that God was in Christ--a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,
2Co 5:20  in behalf of Christ, then, we are ambassadors, as if God were calling through us, we beseech, in behalf of Christ, `Be ye reconciled to God;'
2Co 5:21  for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him.

Good responses

[ded2daworld]

This post is just my opinion
Anti-neitzche said: "The devil did that with Paul, actually beating him up."
There is no indication of that. The Bible never says the people that beat up Paul, stoned him, left him for dead were anything but average people.

Anti-neitzche said:I've been visited by devils sometimes, they can appear in human form, have strength and skill, they can really punch
How did you know they were devils? How many times did they visit? Did they say anything to you? What makes them fearsome if they were in human form and Jesus told us to be afraid of no one? If you didn't fight them, how do you know they "can really punch"?

Anti-neitzche said: You might research Pater Pio who has had such an experience too. Once he was beaten up so severely that he had cuts and bruises in the morning, just before he would receive a confession of a heavy hitter sinner.
Did this Pater Pio call the police when these devils in the disguise of humans beat him up and was there any corroboration from witnesses? Is this possibly just an anecdotal story used to draw attention to himself? What's the difference between a "heavy hitter sinner" and an ordinairy one? Why did this "heavy hitter" go to a man rather than God for the forgiveness of his sins. Was the man repentant or did he just want to confess like the strange people that call the police to confess to all sorts of crimes they never committed?

Anti-neitzche said: So when Paul was preaching the next time, maybe it would touch even hardhearted veterans of the roman army and such.
There is no indication of this in the Bible either. If the Holy Spirit moves to "touch"(affect) someone, he does it by his own choosing rather than someone being moved emotionally. "For the Spirit blows where he will"

Anti-neitzche said: ...but sometimes you must suffer to move someone, just like Christ did.
Christ did not suffer and die on the cross to "move" people. He did it to save us, to take our place, "by His stripes we are healed" I don't think Jesus thought to himself, "oh I know! I'll die a tortuous death so that people will be emotionally moved and maybe feel bad for letting this happen to me."

I think not.

[anti_nietzsche]

Ded, it's in 2 Corinthians 12:7

and that by the exceeding greatness of the revelations I might not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of the Adversary, that he might buffet me, that I might not be exalted overmuch.

How did you know they were devils? How many times did they visit? Did they say anything to you? What makes them fearsome if they were in human form and Jesus told us to be afraid of no one? If you didn't fight them, how do you know they "can really punch"?


I can't know for sure it was a devil, but this being spoke bad to me and did not lift me up, I had been in distress previously and sought God and His love, and I felt a man come into my room and was not sympathetic to my suffering. I still thought it was Jesus because I had sins on me from the past and supposed God was angry. This person said to me I needed to have faith from the heart and that wailing about being attacked by the devil would be bad because it's because of my sin that they would come to me (while I did not have any serious sin on me). I prayed to this being and I got these perverted images that a man would bind himself to me as if I were a jamb and he would receive a beating, all the while staring at me hatefully. I spoke about this to a pastor friend I have and he said that Jesus is known as a helper and as a forgiving God and that most likely this being couldn't have been Jesus. And that not even when he was crucified did Jesus hate anybody but instead forgave everyone. So I stopped praying to this being that visited me and soon after I began remembering other times when God did a lot of kindness to me, and I got baptized and had visions of the Holy Spirit and other visitations of God. I think what Paul experienced was similar although it was less a problem of deception but more one of being buffetted.

Did this Pater Pio call the police when these devils in the disguise of humans beat him up and was there any corroboration from witnesses? Is this possibly just an anecdotal story used to draw attention to himself? What's the difference between a "heavy hitter sinner" and an ordinairy one? Why did this "heavy hitter" go to a man rather than God for the forgiveness of his sins. Was the man repentant or did he just want to confess like the strange people that call the police to confess to all sorts of crimes they never committed?


Well they just found Pio in the morning and the whole room was devastated and Pio was bleeding and bruised. I know it's an uncanny story but it really happened. Some would say that Pio went mad and hurt himself, but Pio swore this wasn't the case. It's not the only account of things like this.


There is no indication of this in the Bible either. If the Holy Spirit moves to "touch"(affect) someone, he does it by his own choosing rather than someone being moved emotionally. "For the Spirit blows where he will"

That's not true. The church tries all the time to make us sympathetic to people's suffering, and we should certainly be moved to compassion for suffering people by our Savior who suffered too. And being moved emotionally can be a result by the Spirit touching someone. Just this morning I practiced preaching and I felt this extremely warm and wet feeling come to me and I knew it was the Holy Spirit preparing me to preach love and making it godly.


Christ did not suffer and die on the cross to "move" people. He did it to save us, to take our place, "by His stripes we are healed" I don't think Jesus thought to himself, "oh I know! I'll die a tortuous death so that people will be emotionally moved and maybe feel bad for letting this happen to me."

Well, the emotionality can be overstated and you're probably fine by just seeing it historically, but personally, yes, I have at times needed to confront myself with Jesus' sufferings, not in order to receive any condemnation but to feel closer to my Savior in my own sufferings, knowing that Jesus also underwent these sufferings to show us that He would be with us. The movie "Passion of the Christ" has moved many people, and the ability to be moved by suffering other than my own is a very good thing.

God bless you!

[ded2daworld]

There is much dispute about what exactly this "thorn" in Paul,s flesh was. The majority seem to believe it was Pauls eyes. He couldn't see vry well, "I, Paul, am writing this with my own hand. See how large I must make the letters" also Paul was not impressive in person and this MAY have been due to junk seeping out of his eyes. Nobody knows for sure.

"...because I had sins on me from the past and supposed God was angry."
God isn't angry with you anti, it's part of the reason for this website.
"...wailing about being attacked by the devil would be bad because it's because of my sin that they would come to me (while I did not have any serious sin on me)"
Anti-a serious sin is the one we casually dismiss as not being serious.
"... all the while staring at me hatefully.  So I stopped praying to this being"
Anti - you prayed to a being that stared at you hatefully? I'm sorry that you even have a conception of the God of Love staring hatefully at you. You know Jesus didn't even look hatefully at the men nailing him to the cross.
You're right anti- I don't think Paul was ever decieved by a mean creature and think it was the Lord Jesus.

and I'm not saying demonic attacks do not occur, they do. e.g. In the new testament, when a couple of non-believers tried to cast out some demons, they (the demons)said, "We know Jesus and we Know Paul, but you, we don't know you" and they were attacked by them.

And you're right, many many things said and done are for the sole (soul) purpose of getting an emotional response. That's why Billy Graham admits that of all the people that come forward in his evangelistic meetingst only about 5% "stick" that is, come forward, study their bible, pray, join a church, etc (all the outer trappings of belief) The other 95% fall by vthe wayside as the "excitement and emotion of the moment" wear off.
And you're right - emotion does play a roll (Love the Lord your God with all your heart(emotions)
Sometimes while praying or singing a hymn I'm overwhelmed and start sobbing thinking about Jesus and his mercy and love. oh yeah and the "passion of the Christ" movie - right again anti.

[anti_nietzsche]

Well, sometimes sin is serious, such as when I would hit someone, and sometimes it's just a little thing, for example being a little rough with someone. And at that point I didn't have anything serious on me. At least, nothing that other believers hadn't on them too. Anyway, as my mother used to say, God has forgiven murderers, and I personally think God is higher than us and in Christ He is again higher still and for a being like this forgiveness may always be greater than condemnation. In the medievals, there were people who didn't know the bible, and still they believed in universal salvation, not because they were lackadaisical and wanted to sin but because they really knew what love is and that God is love, and that was enough for them. But this being that visited me there and pretended to be Jesus was really succeeding to deceive me at that point and I had a week of terror before the real Jesus rescued me and quoted a bible verse to me: "I am a man familiar with suffering" (Isaiah). It's awful to feel like in the hands of an angry God and I can fully sympathize with the victims of hellfire preachers like Jonathan Edwards, some of which cut their throat after the sermons, which is a sacrilege, no one should leave church with such an impression of God!

About demons, they are really spiritual beings, but sometimes they can manifest in a physical way and hit someone, just like angels can do too, and demons are really fallen angels. They visited me many times since I started to believe in UR, as if they tried to scare me away from it. But UR is the only way to have genuine and lasting peace with God. Paul knew this reality very well, saying he struggled with principalities and powers in the high places. But well, who doesn't like to live an adventure, if you have God within your heart through Christ and through the Holy Spirit?

[ded2daworld]

Yeah, that's part of the problem with hell-fire preachers, they have to have an angry God that's just waiting for you to mess up so he can laugh while he tosses you into the flames of eternal torment.

What a sick, twisted, perverted view of our Lord Jesus.

[anti_nietzsche]

Yes, exactly, it's a twisted and wrong view. But the bible was written in the way it was written, and Jesus didn't plainly announce universal salvation, at least as far as I know. He didn't plainly say, Hello, I am Jesus, I am God and I am gonna save the world and everybody of you. Instead he did what he did, said what he said, gave us some clues and became our God who is nevertheless with us - yet we cannot ask, God explain us everything, come talk to us. We have to do our own thoughtwork with the material that we have, the bible material, the surviving documents of the early church, the writings of the Church Fathers, sound philosophy, tradition, common sense, literature, pretty much everything really, there are mountains of work to do. So it was easy for man to get confused and the early christians got scared and developed a tight doctrine (especially Augustine), thinking it would keep things together and scare the wicked straight, but it didn't work and then Rome and everything fell apart and the medievals came upon us when things were really dark, a time when universalism would have been sorely needed but everyone thought it was heresy. It's so incredibly tragic really, and I can only hope that our modern times gets things right, especially if we should face similar challenges like the ancient people faced in Rome. I don't want a new dark age, be it a religious age or not.

[ded2daworld]

Jesus - "I am the way, the truth and the Life"
"The Father and I are one"
"I AM the light of the world"
"Unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins"
"Don't you know after I've been with you so long that he that has seen me has seen the Father?"

Who but God can forgive sins as Jesus did? who but God can make the wind and waves obey as Jesus did?
Who but God can bring a person dead for 4 days back to life like Jesus did?
John - "Behold, the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.
Seems pretty plain to me. and I know this is just a small sampling.

Yes men get confused but the Holy Spirit guides into all truth. The confusion comes in when you start listening to people that don't know Jesus/ don't know scripture or both.
All these people - ask them ONE simple question. "What must I Do to be saved?" If they hem and haw and give you any answer other than, "believe(trust in, adhere to, rely on) on the Lord Jesus Christ and you'll be saved." -nothing added. If they can't answer this simple question, how can they know how you will be saved - they aren't even sure of their own salvation. If they're not sure of their own salvation - they may not know Jesus at the personal level. If they don't know Jesus - then who are they to be telling you anything spiritual?

[ded2daworld]

Which is why it is called a parable from the very beginning.

[anti_nietzsche]

No, it's not called a Parable in scripture. And that's why people took it literally for centuries.