Author Topic: What do Unitarians believe in?  (Read 2787 times)

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Offline Doc

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Re: What do Unatarians believe in?
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2009, 08:02:53 PM »

Now that you mention it bothe the Christian and Universalist Unitarians beliefs interest me. I read somewhere that one of the Unitarian beliefs is that not all go to heaven - only certain groups or something. Thats the part of their belief that interests me. For the reason of why they believe this and who do they believe goes to heaven.

The UU denomination has no creed - you believe whatever you want. The unitarians do not have a creed either, except that God is not three persons.

I have observed this though - quite a few Christians who come to a knowledge of UR end up going unitarian as well. 

Which is part of the reason we don't really have a universalist church in the U.S. now; it was more or less absorbed into what is now the UU denomination. Unfortunately, some use this as a slippery slope argument against Universalism. (Not saying that's what you're doing).
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

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Offline Nathan

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Re: What do Unatarians believe in?
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2009, 08:28:49 PM »
For me, the more I get into these things . . .dimensions of God, UR principles . . .the more I realize I'm like a smorgasborg of doctrines . . . I guess the closest way to "label" it would be with the sign of the rainbow . . .oops . . . wait a minute, that is already taken by another group if I'm not mistaken.

Offline firstborn888

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Re: What do Unatarians believe in?
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2009, 06:08:39 AM »
For me, the more I get into these things . . .dimensions of God, UR principles . . .the more I realize I'm like a smorgasborg of doctrines . . . I guess the closest way to "label" it would be with the sign of the rainbow . . .oops . . . wait a minute, that is already taken by another group if I'm not mistaken.

I think God patented the rainbow label when He invented the way water refracts light. But then I heard He leases out the use of the symbol for free.  :thumbsup:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Alliance

Offline firstborn888

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Re: What do Unatarians believe in?
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2009, 06:15:13 AM »

Now that you mention it bothe the Christian and Universalist Unitarians beliefs interest me. I read somewhere that one of the Unitarian beliefs is that not all go to heaven - only certain groups or something. Thats the part of their belief that interests me. For the reason of why they believe this and who do they believe goes to heaven.

The UU denomination has no creed - you believe whatever you want. The unitarians do not have a creed either, except that God is not three persons.

I have observed this though - quite a few Christians who come to a knowledge of UR end up going unitarian as well. 

Which is part of the reason we don't really have a universalist church in the U.S. now; it was more or less absorbed into what is now the UU denomination. Unfortunately, some use this as a slippery slope argument against Universalism. (Not saying that's what you're doing).

Yes, for those interested do study the history of Christian Universalism. There was a strong UR movement in the 19th century which is mentioned toward the end of this CUA article http://www.christianuniversalist.org/articles/history.html

After merging into one denomination the liberal aspects of the UU eventually took over and the Christian universalist movement basically died.

Offline sven

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Re: What do Unitarians believe in?
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2009, 06:17:52 PM »
i think A.E. Knoch didn't believe in the trinity

this might help:

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/GodAndChrist/index.html

Offline Doc

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Re: What do Unitarians believe in?
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2009, 10:02:49 PM »
You know, I've gone back and forth on the whole trinity doctrine thing. I'm not really sure where I stand on it except that if the trinity doctrine is 'true', it's not taught as a concept (as such) explicitly in scripture but rather, trinity is implied at some level. The trinity doctrine itself has problems, but I can't really tell if that's just because it's a feeble attempt of finite man at describing an infinite God, or if it really is contrary to what scripture teaches. I've seen good arguments on both sides. It seems that with respect to "trinity" itself (irrespective of the holes in the actual doctrine), it does at least seem implied by the personhood of The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. The tetchy thing about Unitarianism for me is that from what I've seen, it runs dangerously close to if it does not actually deny, either the personhood or the deity of "part" of the One God that seems clearly identified as God somewhere in scripture. We at least know that God is in some sense a "plural" entity, because of the language used by God at creation: "Let usmake man in ourimage."

But that's sort of the crux of the problem in the debate between the two. It seems to ultimately boil down to an argument of semantics if you have either a Unitarian or a Trinitarian view that identifies the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as separate in some sense or lumps two or more of them together. I can't seem to really settle on either view.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Nathan

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Re: What do Unitarians believe in?
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2009, 11:09:03 PM »
My view is pretty simplistic.  Just as I am a spirit that has a soul and lives in a body, those three components make up "me".  So it is with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, those three comonents make up "God".  You can't separate one from the other, yet, like me, each can converse with the other.  How many times to you have inner conversations?  Who's talking in there?

Offline Doc

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Re: What do Unitarians believe in?
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2009, 09:55:51 PM »
I guess that I lean somewhat more toward a Trinitarian view, even though I don't subscribe to the doctrine itself. I believe that God is one, but that the scriptures seem to clearly teach that the Holy Spirit, The Son and The Father are all God. The lines of distinction beyond that are a bit fuzzy.

I think they got themselves into trouble by trying to make a doctrine out of the concept in an attempt explain it more clearly.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: What do Unitarians believe in?
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2009, 10:33:36 PM »
I guess that I lean somewhat more toward a Trinitarian view, even though I don't subscribe to the doctrine itself. I believe that God is one, but that the scriptures seem to clearly teach that the Holy Spirit, The Son and The Father are all God. The lines of distinction beyond that are a bit fuzzy.

I think they got themselves into trouble by trying to make a doctrine out of the concept in an attempt explain it more clearly.

I disagree that the greek or hebrew supports the holy ghost as being the 3rd person of God, just being honest about that, but my post is not to directly debate it.

As I see it the trinitarian view inhibits seeing that we are also Gods family in the same way Jesus is.  It is mainly taught in a way that keeps God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost so separate from our walks that we are not included in Gods family properly.

While the debate for or against the trinity rages on, I see it as more along the lines that "if" God is in 3 persons (which isn;t in scripture though), then the first human being to gain inclusion into God family makes God in 4 persons, etc etc.





Offline Doc

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Re: What do Unitarians believe in?
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2009, 10:43:24 PM »
I guess that I lean somewhat more toward a Trinitarian view, even though I don't subscribe to the doctrine itself. I believe that God is one, but that the scriptures seem to clearly teach that the Holy Spirit, The Son and The Father are all God. The lines of distinction beyond that are a bit fuzzy.

I think they got themselves into trouble by trying to make a doctrine out of the concept in an attempt explain it more clearly.

I disagree that the greek or hebrew supports the holy ghost as being the 3rd person of God, just being honest about that, but my post is not to directly debate it.

As I see it the trinitarian view inhibits seeing that we are also Gods family in the same way Jesus is.  It is mainly taught in a way that keeps God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost so separate from our walks that we are not included in Gods family properly.

While the debate for or against the trinity rages on, I see it as more along the lines that "if" God is in 3 persons (which isn;t in scripture though), then the first human being to gain inclusion into God family makes God in 4 persons, etc etc.






Paul, I'm actually not against hearing other views. In fact, I'm interested by your comment on the Greek/ Hebrew not supporting the Holy Spirit as the third "person". Could you elaborate for me? (Even if you want to do it in a PM; that's cool, I'm just interested in what you have to say). I'm not what you would call a "hardcore" Trinitarian by any stretch...
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline sven

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Re: What do Unitarians believe in?
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2009, 02:44:27 PM »
it seems to me this topic is not very welcome here, but this book is very interesting (i've read the german version) the authors might be universalists because they speak of the live of the age to come

http://www.amazon.com/Doctrine-Trinity-Christianitys-Self-Inflicted-Wound/dp/1573093092/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232282500&sr=8-1
« Last Edit: January 18, 2009, 02:46:34 PM by sven »

Offline Sarah

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Re: What do Unitarians believe in?
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2009, 06:05:41 PM »
Quote
I guess the closest way to "label" it would be with the sign of the rainbow . . .oops . . . wait a minute, that is already taken by another group if I'm not mistaken.

 :laughing7:

Offline jabcat

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Re: What do Unitarians believe in?
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2009, 04:44:21 AM »
it seems to me this topic is not very welcome here, but this book is very interesting (i've read the german version) the authors might be universalists because they speak of the live of the age to come

http://www.amazon.com/Doctrine-Trinity-Christianitys-Self-Inflicted-Wound/dp/1573093092/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232282500&sr=8-1

Hi sven...it may be a good topic to discuss, except in an open forum (this one for sure) it has resulted in conflict and division to the point where it's just one of those topics it's been decided we just won't wander into anymore...not that it's not a good question or thing to ponder, just too much strife has come from it here...maybe it's one of those topics to read different perspectives (as you've posted the link), read scripture, and pray for wisdom and understanding.  Also, anyone can discuss anything they agree to by PM  :thumbsup:.

God's blessing, James.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23