What A Mess?

[jugghead]

If our faith is confined within the bounderies of the psychology of men, how can our walk with God advamce?

I made no intimation concerning "faith" & "dreams". I was simply passing along the present state of science with regard to why all humans (many animals too) sleep in a dream state, that it is the normal  manner by which we function as normal healthy adults. The "science" of the dream state of sleep is quite clear that the primary functions of the dream state is that it is a necessary information processing mechanism which if interrupted leads to problems with memory recall.

I fail to see what the association is to "faith" that you made. It is clear in scripture that God uses the dream state to reveal things to specific people concerning prophetic events, but that is not the norm. Most dreams have no intended function for the revealing of prophecy in the "latter days",  however the dream state can be a useful vehicle by which that can occur, but I'll state it again, is not the norm.

I'm real careful about the usefulness of the passing scenes of my dream states. I am not a prophet nor a teacher of scripture, I simply read scripture & believe it while doing my best to interpret it from the original languages in which it was written.

I am sorry if I was not clear, my only point was that it is a starting point, meaning that the wisdom of men can only take us so far in understanding, going beyond the bounderies of what they know can open up a whole new understanding in how God can work in anyone's life.

It was just a question, not an accusation. Maybe I should reword it and say, Our walk with God cannot advance if we confine our faith within the psycology of men. But that also can be taken the wrong way, because it can be taken as I am telling you something that you do not know. If you take the replies to your posts as accusations by another, that is something we all are affected by.

[Paul L]

Hey Paul, God not speaking in dreams is not the norm according to whom?

My point being that the "norm" for the dream state is that the "normal function of dreaming" is that as an information processing mechanism that configures our brain cells for memory recall, dream science has verified this. I have clearly stated that God does speak in dreams, but to specific people for specific purposes, eg; Nebuchadnezzar, the 3 Magi, a few others. In my entire life, I can think of only half a dozen instances where I had a dream that was useful for instruction, and then only had very limited useful benefit for that.

When I was taking math courses in college, I had many a night I would dream about calculus equations streaming all around my head, but I could never get a clear enough picture of the dream state organization of those equations to find the dreams useful for instruction. Maybe not so with others.....so be it.

[jugghead]

Hey Paul, God not speaking in dreams is not the norm according to whom?

My point being that the "norm" for the dream state is that the "normal function of dreaming" is that as an information processing mechanism that configures our brain cells for memory recall, dream science has verified this. I have clearly stated that God does speak in dreams, but to specific people for specific purposes, eg; Nebuchadnezzar, the 3 Magi, a few others. In my entire life, I can think of only half a dozen instances where I had a dream that was useful for instruction, and then only had very limited useful benefit for that.

When I was taking math courses in college, I had many a night I would dream about calculus equations streaming all around my head, but I could never get a clear enough picture of the dream state organization of those equations to find the dreams useful for instruction. Maybe not so with others.....so be it.

Did you ever think that it was God telling you the state of the world, that of confusion, not being able to understand. No, this was not me saying you are in a state of confusion, but that God was showing you the state of the world's way of thinking.

[Paul L]

If our faith is confined within the bounderies of the psychology of men, how can our walk with God advamce?

I made no intimation concerning "faith" & "dreams". I was simply passing along the present state of science with regard to why all humans (many animals too) sleep in a dream state, that it is the normal  manner by which we function as normal healthy adults. The "science" of the dream state of sleep is quite clear that the primary functions of the dream state is that it is a necessary information processing mechanism which if interrupted leads to problems with memory recall.

I fail to see what the association is to "faith" that you made. It is clear in scripture that God uses the dream state to reveal things to specific people concerning prophetic events, but that is not the norm. Most dreams have no intended function for the revealing of prophecy in the "latter days",  however the dream state can be a useful vehicle by which that can occur, but I'll state it again, is not the norm.

I'm real careful about the usefulness of the passing scenes of my dream states. I am not a prophet nor a teacher of scripture, I simply read scripture & believe it while doing my best to interpret it from the original languages in which it was written.

 Maybe I should reword it and say, Our walk with God cannot advance if we confine our faith within the psycology of men.

An absolutely correct statement on your part, thanks for clarifying what you meant...Paul

[Paul L]

Hey Paul, God not speaking in dreams is not the norm according to whom?

My point being that the "norm" for the dream state is that the "normal function of dreaming" is that as an information processing mechanism that configures our brain cells for memory recall, dream science has verified this. I have clearly stated that God does speak in dreams, but to specific people for specific purposes, eg; Nebuchadnezzar, the 3 Magi, a few others. In my entire life, I can think of only half a dozen instances where I had a dream that was useful for instruction, and then only had very limited useful benefit for that.

When I was taking math courses in college, I had many a night I would dream about calculus equations streaming all around my head, but I could never get a clear enough picture of the dream state organization of those equations to find the dreams useful for instruction. Maybe not so with others.....so be it.

Did you ever think that it was God telling you the state of the world, that of confusion, not being able to understand. No, this was not me saying you are in a state of confusion, but that God was showing you the state of the world's way of thinking.

Nope, have never thought about it like that. Oftentimes dreams are already perplexing enough that it seems hopeless to attach meaning to them, "confusion" or otherwise.

[redhotmagma]

Paul I'm not an anti-science guy by any means.  But there is one thing I know for a fact.  "We" as in the modern scientific world, know maybe .1 % of the way the brain and nervous system work.  In fact the theory of nerve conduction is insufficient to explain the speed at which some signals travel.  Thats the basic anatomy and physiology, which you can cut and slice and hook electrodes to.  Consciousness, dreams dream states etc, we understand at a far smaller percentage. 

Medical research (and most scientific research) is highly fraudulent.  The former chief editor of New England Journal of Medicine which is the most prestigious of medical journals said (in my own paraphrase) "you can't trust medical research at all, the fraud, the financial ties have  corrupted it"

I'm not saying all research is bogus, its just I don't put much weight into a lot of it, maybe the line of research you're speaking of is good too.  Just a caution, since we (humanity) are so prone to appealing to authority, give us a king so we can be like the nations.  Whether that king is a politician, a doctor, a scientist, a priest, or the talking heads (that one saddens me the most), "they" are all part of babylon, which is confusion.

And that brings me back around nicely to what jugghead said about dreams and confusion.  In the movie the matrix the people in the matrix thought they were in the real world, they were confused, the wool had been pulled down over their eyes, kind of like a veil.  When we dream we may be going to the state of transfer between the real world (Spirit) and the matrix (natural world).  God spoke to people in dreams throughout the entire Bible.  It wasn't just a few, in fact I believe its the most common way He spoke to people thats recorded (I could be wrong on this).  The other way was visions.  What is the difference between a dream and a vision?  They're pretty similar but one you start from sleeping, and one from awake???  I know the visions I've had were similar to dreams, not the minor ones but the ones where I'm fully aware of whats going on and can think in them. 

I'm not claiming anything as fact here.  Just thinking out loud.  Maybe dreams are doing much more than you think.  I can tell you I have memories of things that happened in a vision/dream while I was sleeping that I don't remember having the dream in the first place.  Sometimes I wake up and say "I know Kung Fu", but instead of kung fu its principles of the kingdom.

Blessings brother

[Molly]

very interesting post, RHM.

[rosered]

What is the difference between a dream and a vision?  They're pretty similar but one you start from sleeping, and one from awake??? 

  I so agree with this  , and know that it can the the Lord   , either protecting you  or purposing you   or warning you

 they say we are only 5% brain  conscience and the other 95%  is subconscience  activity
 
   this may be why "thoughts "  cause such   peace or torment and definatley "confusion "  at times when   they become "scattered "
 I love Job 33  , its helped me  consider the Lord   often  as to what   His desire for us is and to put our own thoughts  and desires  more towards Him
 
Job 33:15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed  , its a great chapter
 and think  many times  , it  gives answers   
 for example Peter was   "confused "   about the Law and going back to an old pattern of thinking 
 when he recieved   his visions , He was   told to  call no man uncommon or unclean 
 freeing him of thoughts  to respecter of persons 
 I have been lurking for a long while , ever since the crash of this site

[redhotmagma]

I was wondering where you were Rosie!  Glad to see you 

[WhiteWings]

The harvesting angel has returned!

[lomarah]

Rosie comes out from lurking in the shadows!! 

[Paul L]

Paul I'm not an anti-science guy by any means.  But there is one thing I know for a fact.  "We" as in the modern scientific world, know maybe .1 % of the way the brain and nervous system work.

....... dreams dream states etc, we understand at a far smaller percentage. 

.......  When we dream we may be going to the state of transfer between the real world (Spirit) and the matrix (natural world). 

I'm not claiming anything as fact here.  Just thinking out loud.  Maybe dreams are doing much more than you think.

There is not one word of which you've written here that I disagree with, my only point initially being of an overly weighted  emphasis whole groups of people place on the meaning of dreams. Dream interpretation has become a fashionable almost cult-like endeavor.

What "dream science" has been doing is to discover it's mental health benefits, but without a doubt it can be a bridge to the spirit world, the Bible gives many examples of it, but still you fail to understand the point I'm making, that a "bridge to the spirit world" is not the primary function of "dreaming", it's only a tiny fractional byproduct of God's intended purpose for the human state of sleep. Healthy sleeping habits are vital to a well balanced physical & mental state during the waking hours, if you have terror dreams those will affect the mental state of your waking hours, pleasant dreams  of wandering through gentle fields of flowing grasslands will have the opposite effect.   

 Very few people have ever been chosen by God to be a prophet or apostle, or some other similarly placed position through whom God  has given us his written word. When the Bible was fully complete, revelatiing communication via the spirit world was complete. To think we humans can add to God's now completed written word is a pointless endeavor, yet many people in the latter days are looking for "signs" that Christ has admonished them not to look for, Matt 12:38-39 comes to mind.

 A lot of "latter day" false prophets have had their rise to prominence which started in the swoons of their dreams, so this issue about the relevancy of dreams emanating from the spirit world cuts both ways & those in the Body of Christ would serve themselves well to be extra-ordinarily discerning of the sources they think are giving them new knowledge never previously revealed in the bible, the source may not be what one might think.

[lomarah]

On the other hand we certainly wouldn't want to attribute a work of the Holy Spirit to Satan.

"When the Bible was complete revelating communication via the spirit world was complete." NO! On the contrary, again - in the last days God has poured out His Spirit. He said that MANY would prophesy, dream dreams and have visions. (Please don't take my capitalization as shouting lol I'm on my cell and it's hard to underline on here.)

And for the record, the sheep know His voice. No worries as to Who Card's revelations come from. :)

[onlytruth]

testimony
God gave me dreams specifically for a couple(never met them before and never met them again).The women bumped into my wife at a store, my wife took her home to pray,My wife phoned me told me what she was doing...I relayed the dream to my wife.The lady broke down and said it was an answer to prayer.I on the same day run into her husband at a hockey game and relay the dream once again,he was on the brink and needed the word
So does God use dreams today...yup
blessings

[lomarah]

Awesome onlytruth!! God is so wonderful. :)

[Paul L]

So does God use dreams today...yup
blessings

And I agree with you that he does....but not for the purpose of adding to the already completed writ of scripture, and that is the only point I've been making but which every commentator thus far keeps missing. There is in this age no "new truth" since the last scribe of holy writ completed his work by the end of the 1st century AD. No "new Biblical truth" from God through his Christ is today being revealed through anybody's dreams, numerous ones claim it and is part of  the reason we have all the denominations that have created this "mess".

[lomarah]

You are right Paul, there is no "new truth". However there are mysteries that have been kept hidden and which God only shows to those who are ready and seeking. Look at the book of Revelation for the most obvious example lol. I don't know about you but I don't have a sweet clue what most of it means.

[jabcat]

Not to come down clearly one way or another on anything specific that's been shared as truth or not, but just to say, Paul is hitting on the heart of the OP.  So many denominations, so many people saying "I'm hearing this or that from the Lord so it's the absolute truth".  I do believe God speaks to us and leads us, but I also believe the human mind is susceptible to imagination, misinterpretation, and confusion.  Ever look online at all the folks calling themselves apostles, sons of God, disciples, pastors, bishops, etc.?  How many different opinions about the kingdom of God do you think they share?  Just one, in unity?  Not even close.  Hundreds might get it.

I'm personally very careful with a lot of personal claims and interpretations.  Though I believe some are inspirational and very much worth going to the scriptures and before the Lord with (I know some don't agree) but I want to see at least a pretty clear hint in scripture that there's scriptural soundness and scriptural possibility to a claim of revelation.  Anybody can say anything in the name of God - and many do.  Which brings us back to, IMO, "searching the scriptures daily to see if those things are true", looking to the Lord for guidance and understanding, and always keeping our eyes on Him as our steady Rock and Deliverer.   

[Paul L]

You are right Paul, there is no "new truth". However there are mysteries that have been kepr hidden and which Gos only shows to those who are ready and seeking. Look at the book of Revelation for the most obvious example lol. I don't know about you but I don't have a sweet clue what most of it means.

Absolutely & right on the money.

For some very good reason, God in his infinite wisdom has not revealed to everybody the same measure of "truth" regarding the contents of His written word. Different denominations appear to have a different measure (quantity) of "truth" than another. I think God has done this as a safeguard against teachings of some that there is "one true church", you know how that can go, and the different denominations function as a checks & balances to one another.

[jabcat]

Agreed ,

Agreed

[rosered]

No "new Biblical truth" from God through his Christ is today being revealed through anybody's dreams, numerous ones claim it and is part of  the reason we have all the denominations that have created this "mess".

 Love never fails and its hard to fool your own self when you are   doing all things in love /charity  and fully giving of  need towards  others needs in  that pure heart ,   I  do agree many deceive  thier own hearts when the motive is not done  for the Love of God and in His Holy  Spirit ..  Paul said it well here     what fails , but when done in Gods Spirit it shall never fail   anyone  , the giver and receiver   Jesus was the best example of Truth setting  many free or binding them  to the Truth   by the Holy Spirit of truth

1Cr 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

  You know all power is from God ,  even the devil  cannot move with Gods permission ... 
  the things we see as a mess are to prove the point    "only God is in control " Mat 18:18   Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.   



 

Not to come down clearly one way or another on anything specific that's been shared as truth or not, but just to say, Paul is hitting on the heart of the OP.  So many denominations, so many people saying "I'm hearing this or that from the Lord so it's the absolute truth".  I do believe God speaks to us and leads us, but I also believe the human mind is susceptible to imagination, misinterpretation, and confusion.  Ever look online at all the folks calling themselves apostles, sons of God, disciples, pastors, bishops, etc.?  How many different opinions about the kingdom of God do you think they share?  Just one, in unity?  Not even close.  Hundreds might get it.

I'm personally very careful with a lot personal claims and interpretations.  I know some don't agree, but I want to see at least a pretty clear hint in scripture that there's scriptural soundness and scriptural possibility to a claim of revelation.  Anybody can say anything in the name of God - and many do.  Which brings us back to, IMO, searching the scriptures daily to see if those be true, looking to the Lord for guidance and understanding, and always keeping our eyes on Him as our steady Rock and Deliverer.

  Lots of times  Bro J ,   If   one says ,  "I'm hearing this or that from the Lord so it's the absolute truth".     if it fails    it was not done in the right Spirit , we cannot put our trust in man
  but if it does   not fail   we can  know our faith will increase by the  power of God ,        I believe the wise  would have a fear of the Lord not to take it on himself to speak as God or for God  falsley  , so many examples in the Word for those who  disobeyed



Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

Isa 48:11 For mine own sake, [even] for mine own sake, will I do [it]: for how should [my name] be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.  
 
 
 who deserves the Glory but God  Himself   ,and shared this glory before the world was with His Son Jesus Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

 I have backed off greatly   in  much talk because of   mine own hyprocrisy   and loved what you shared about  Kratos  words we should   rejoice as Christians  knowing the glorfied Body   will never suffer  from the   natural elements as the  human condition does
 its hard to be in the    right Spirit all the time  , being flesh and blood as well
 I read a story   years ago and it stuck with me for  all these years   , about a lady who said  during her near death experience that  , she became so depreesed  having to come back to her motal body   and described it     as coming  into  some" filthy  stiff work clothes "  but knew her time was not yet  and her purpose   in God was not complete yet
 
  and  all these things still give me hope that the Cross of Jesus Christ  and in that power of Love   hold the key to  Life   from the dead  for all who believe in Him , all will confess    as Paul states   in the Day of the Lord
 Phil 2 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

  Thanks for the welcome back  friends  :)

[jabcat]

Amen rosie.   

[reFORMer]

I injected something that instantly caused a change in my sensory experience.  This gave enough credence to a fear of death that I asked a friend of mine to drive me to where I thought a doctor I knew would be.  This left me at Presbyterion church prayer meeting where we found her and about 30 other people, mostly students, that had received the baptism in the Holy Spirit.  While they were all praying for me in tongues nothing much seemed to happen.  Dr. Judy laid her hand on my arm and said I should just talk to Jesus and tell Him what my problem was.  This made sense to me.  So I told the Lord, even though I knew He had to be right about it, I liked sin anyway.  Would He please get me to where I could repent.  As some time passed, people drifted away and I was no longer noticed, I just slipped out the back door to enjoy my interrupted trip.

About 10 days later, rejected by all my friends during this time, I was in an apartment paid for by Dr. Judy's loan.  I had no job and no money.  I had only some oatmeal and water.  A guy had stolen my shoes and left me with a pair of boots that were a size and a half too small for me.  I couldn't just go for a walk to relieve the terrible boredom I was experiencing.  I had used drugs and lived up to no standard of morality for several years, other than to not get in trouble.  I wasn't really a criminal, just lost and wandering, without goals, a hedonist that had no place to belong.

I started walking up and down there, telling myself I was supposed to be a smart guy, I should figure out what was wrong.  Why was I in this dead end, this loneliness, poverty, and misery in general?  I began to realize what I had thought of as life's banquet had become more like addiction and what started out as beautiful had gradually become a life in the gutter, forcing me into increasingly worse sin.  It was like walking into the large end of a cornucopia and finding it more and more constricted.

As I realized my sins were the problem I also knew I had kicked Jesus out of my life.  Considering His followers as boring, I didn't even know anybody who believed in Him.  I began to sob, grieving that I could be so wrong toward Jesus, wondering aloud at such a wicked sin, "How will I ever be forgiven!?"  Then I saw Jesus on the cross.  His head was turned away from me.  I immediately knew this meant I was forgiven.  I thank Him and asked Him to come into my life.  I remember where I was in the room, the late sun on the wall just in front of me when He came in.  It was a couple of months before I realized I had seen a vision.

I went on the next day to seek God for more and was filled with the Holy Spirit.  I was radically changed.  Within a couple weeks I had a dream on a Sunday or Monday night.  The next day I thought it seemed interesting.  The following morning I realized there was spiritual symbolism in the dream.  Toward the end of the week, knowing it to be a dream from God, I was so consumed with the need to understand what it meant that on friday I began a fast.

A lady friend came by that evening and asked me to go along with her and another sister to a church meeting.  When we were on our way home the other passenger asked us in to share a snack with her.  She was in her 90's.  She'd been a missionary to the American Indians.  When we went to pray over the coffee, cookies, and the best poppy seed cake I've ever had, I mentioned I'd had a dream that I wanted to know the meaning of.  While I was speaking Sister Kittleson lifted her hands, saying, "Oh my!  Oh my!"  She not only had a vision of the deam, she told me what the dream meant.

Acts ^216-21...
[16] But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; [17] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: [18] And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: [19] And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signsin the earth  beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: [20] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: [21] And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

[Ross]

1 John 4;1-3 " Beloved! Believe you not in every spirit, but test whether the spirits are of God;
because MANY false prophets have gone out into the world.
Hereby do you perceive the Spirit of God:
every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ as having come "In the flesh" is of God;
and every spirit that does NOT confess Jesus is not of God."

[lomarah]

Rosie you have a tendency to make me cry lol! Love you sis.  (This darn flesh and blood, eh???)

reFORMer, thank you so much for sharing that! God is amazing!!