What A Mess?

[Molly]

Refining Gold

­The final stage of gold production -- refining -- involves removing impurities that remain after the smelting process. Refining companies receive doré bars, as well as scrap gold, and reliquefy the metal in a furnace. Workers add borax and soda ash to the molten metal, which separates the pure gold from other precious and less precious metals. A sample is then taken to a lab for tests, or assays, that measure the gold content. In most cases, the gold is 99.9 percent pure. Workers cast the gold produced during refining into bars.

What happens next depends on how the gold will be used. Pure gold is generally too soft for most practical applications, so other metals are nearly always added to it. When gold is combined in this way, it forms an alloy. Scientists and goldsmiths often use colors to designate the various gold alloys that are possible. For example, white gold is made by combining gold with nickel, silver or palladium. Red or pink gold is an alloy of gold and copper. And blue gold is the result of mixing gold with iron.

--Refining Gold



He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

--Dan 3:25



[alright I'm crying now]

[jugghead]

Good questions, Jab. I have often thought it is a wonder that we knoww anything.  From personal experience, up till a couple years ago, I was rooted and acted in some beliefs that I thought were true. I fiercely guarded myself from "wrong doctrine" and would only read what fit in with those narrow views. On top of that, bouts of terrible self doubt and depression clouded anything positive about God. How did God get through to me? I was too desperate to say no. When He showed me the real gospel, I had no walls left that I cared protecting. The "mess" of it all (as you call it) is frustrating. God is the only one with the power, but how do we move His hands? Prayer? Sometimes even that feels futile, for He will do as He wills. What keeps me grounded is knowing His ultimate plan for us is good, to give us a future and hope, that all will be answered at Christ's appearing when we shall know as we are also known. What a glorious day that will be. Till then abide in faith, hope and love. Jesus come quickly!

Hey Deena, I know everyone here understood what you meant, but to not sound overbearing, should we not be more careful in how we use the word "narrow" for they could use that against us in their court "of Law" as you proving their point that they are on the narrow path. (My mistake, thought I was quoting Molly).

[Paul L]

Paul, that is a fascinating premise--the "privilege" of pain, but I hate pain.  I hate it so much I will medicate myself not to feel it.  What does that say about us? 

Deena, you're getting it, you're already way ahead of Reba who over public airwaves asked the ancient perplexing question: "Why ?"

Really drink in the meaning and portent of Ecc 3:11. God is clearly stating he never intended for mankind to comprehend to purpose of our laborious & painful labours while on this Earth. But God does talk about the "heart", in this verse, and to a few people the spirit of Christ has opened a few select hearts within Christ's Body, but we must have a humbled spirit & demeanor to comprehend its' deepest meaning or we never see this "privilege" called "pain", and we certainly would never see the benefits it holds for the future of all of mankind.

You have been doing just as I have been doing, boldy (screaming) going to God demanding he gives us answers. He wants boldness when appearing before him, he says so in Heb 4:16, look up that Greek word for "boldly", it means "all-out-spokeness, to be blunt", wow Deena, you can't get anymore blunt than to "scream", good job, he's listening probably better than you know. There have been times I've told God "I hate you" for the pain you created us to suffer with, but I usually get over it within a few minutes or at least a few hours.

In 99.9% of our infirmities, God does not take away pain via the central nervous system, because it is crucial to his secretive plan for the redemption of the entire Universe. Almost all cancers will remain, God will not rescind the painful inflictions of the book of Revelation & all the pain he will place those people under, they will learn valuable lessons from it that Satan can never learn. Pain teaches humans compassion, something Satan & his minions are incapable of feeling, this is the reason those now human will rule over all the celestial hosts presently in the heavens throughout the universe. 

I, like you, scream at God everyday about picking up the pace & putting an end to the humiliating aspects of having a central nervous system that God has inflicted humankind with. But as smart as I'd like to think I am with a better plan in which all our pain should end just as soon as we ask God to do it, is when it dawns on me God created all these bodies on planet Earth just for the express purpose of feeling pain, even the most intense pain, including all the torture chambers the worst human despots can devise right down to the most despicable child molesters who take an innocent child's life. When God put humans on this planet he knew these things would happen, maybe not necessarily all specific instances, but certainly many.

I'm an environmental engineer, my job is to make peoples lives comfortable, what a job that can be, the demands placed on me to assist people in avoiding what God has ordained, pain. This has been a good topic Deena, keep screaming with me at God with all boldness, and if the real truth be known I'll just bet you a lot more than two of us have been plenty mad at God about a lot of things. The screaming boldness of our prayers will not be wasted, God wants to hear from his Sons & Daughters, he's willing to take it anyway we give to him because he likes their attention, just fathers & mothers love the attention of their children even when they're screaming mad at us so also our Father in heaven, he's a big guy Deena, he can handle all the screaming we direct at him, never be embarrassed about it.

[Deena]

Paul, you have encouraged me today.  Maybe we don't have all the answers, but at least I'm not the only one in "crazy town"!  (that's a joke, by the way...)  I often wonder if anyone else thinks these things.

[Deena]

Isn't it ironic that the smartest man to ever live says that God's ways are hidden from full view.  Even the wisest cannot figure Him out.  It makes me laugh.  God does have a funny side.

[lomarah]

Do you know what else is hilarious Deena? We totally knew what we were coming here for. But we are now under a veil of forgetfulness and so we have no idea that we knew beforehand what we were coming to do. Hahahahaha when God showed me that I cracked up so hard. (He's also shown others, it's not just me making it up.  ) I have come to accept pain as a necessary thing, we need it to become purified, it's the only way. And knowing that it is completely temporary and doesn't compare to what awaits us makes it that much easier to go through. (Not saying it's easy, but knowing that makes it easier.  ) I always picture the end, no more pain, everyone full of God, full of love, all of our loved ones back together. It's going to be awesome! 

Just think about having a baby. The process SUCKS to put it lightly LOL but most women go through it at least twice because of the joy of having those babies! The pain is generally forgotten, and it's really such a short amount of time out of our life. Think about this life in comparison to eternity, right? It'll be a distant memory and once we see the life that pain brings forth we will say that we would do it all over again. :)

Btw I screamed at God once when I saw something on the news about a little girl who had been brutalized by two men. I mean BRUTALIZED. I won't go into detail but I was MAD. I screamed at Him, how could you let them do that to a little girl??? Where were you?? I tried to imagine His angels there with her but I just couldn't imagine them standing by and letting them get away with that. Then I "saw" her sitting at the feet of Jesus and it was like everything that happened here didn't even matter, she was so full of joy and peace. I mean she was just so joyful, just enraptured in her Saviours love. I never forgot that.

[Paul L]

We totally knew what we were coming here for. But we are now under a veil of forgetfulness and so we have no idea that we knew beforehand what we were coming to do. Hahahahaha when God showed me that I cracked up so hard. (He's also shown others, it's not just me making it up. 

Would you expand on this a little more. Pre-destination?

[lomarah]

I don't really know how to explain it... just that He showed me via the Spirit that we knew beforehand what we were coming here for. I'm going to give you a link to a post that Cardinal made a while back that I found so beautiful and brought me to tears that tells of a vision that God also gave to her about this. Hope this helps. :)

http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/misogyny-in-the-old-testament/msg10880/#msg10880

Blessings

[jabcat]

Interesting post from Card.  I went ahead and read a few more posts in that thread, and came across the following from Kratos (John) a beloved member and compadre of mine who passed on about 3 years ago;

"I still believe that our problems with what God did to people in the OT and still does today is only judged as cruel or unfeeling or harsh in terms of the carnal mind. If you continue to see this life of 70 years as the important thing and a thing to be preserved, you cannot but help come to that conclusion.

There is a place that I can remember in the Bible (I think Job) that says something to the effect that we humans have it all wrong. We rejoice when a baby is born and we weep when a person dies. But, if we truly understood the way of things, we would weep when a baby is born into this life of pain and sorrow and we would rejoice when a person is finally released back to the real life realm. (sorry for the paraphrase, but I cannot remember enough words to find it).

Anyway, the truth remains that God, from His perspective, thinks little of relieving a person from the bondage of their earthly existence to aid in the passing into the Heavenly existence for us all. This is why it was not unjust for God to allow what appears to be cruel ends to some from this life to teach us spiritual truths. It is because our lives here and all of those who lived in the OT are a mere vapor in terms of our whole existence. That which is seen (our natural lives) are temporary and our unseen lives (in the spirit) are eternal. Unless we see it from this perspective, we are seeing it all wrong. The carnal mind will never be subject to the law of God because it only looks at things through the seen world of our earthly existence. This is wrong and upside down from the truth."

[reFORMer]

(I read a few more posts down and picked up this...)

Agape Love

       The little group stopped along the highway and looked in silent horror, some queasy with disgust, others growing fierce with rage. A short distance off the road, at the top of a gentle rise, a man had been viciously attacked. The grizzly scene glinted red with blood where the hapless victim had been mortally wounded and left to die. It appeared there was nothing more to be done, as already a small crowd had assembled at the site, presumably to administer first aid.

       The travelers stood entranced, caught in the despair of senseless waste. This is the work of Satan, the businessman finally thought aloud.

       No, this evil comes from wicked men, the housewife responded, her eyes transfixed on the scene.

       You don't know that, interjected her girlfriend excitedly. This could be the work of God. It could be that the victim was wicked and this was God's righteous judgment.

       Another stepped in to calm them, But then again if God caused this, maybe he meant it for some higher purpose, unknown to us. He might even somehow use this terrible act for his glory! he offered hopefully.

       Are you crazy? retorted the preacher. We worship a God of love! Our God would never allow this! he stormed, eyes flaring with anger.

       The little group buzzed with concurrence, then slowly turned back to the road and resumed their journey, affirming their denunciation of the crime as they continued on their way. All of them oblivious to the Roman soldiers who were gambling for a cloak.

                         
******************

       Love is the most misunderstood word in existence. To many it means little more than a physical craving. To others it is an intense emotional dependency.

       To some people love is a character trait of God, which is manifest in peace, success, and happiness. It is that special blessing of God that meets their needs and fulfills their wants. Because God loves them, he gives them all the good things of earth to enjoy. To them, anyone who is smiling, or lounging in earthly wealth, is obviously centered in the love of God. For these people, God's love creates a fondness for the things of earth and a coddling affection for all its creatures, in a soupy, mind-numbing bliss.

       But to a few of earth's voyagers, love is something entirely different, something not of this world. It is a wisdom that energizes every action in the universe, whether it appears as good or evil.

       If you had stopped along the road and witnessed the crucifixion of Jesus, would you have recognized it as the supreme love of God? How is the love of God displayed in his slanderous betrayal and murder? Would this be the love of God if it happened to you? (Russell)

[Molly]

Just goes to show, His ways are not our ways.  Sometimes all we can do is trust.


Trust in the Lord with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
    and he will make your paths straight.

--Prov 3:5,6

[Ross]

The things that are seen are temporary,
the things that are not seen are eternal.
Many are looking for signs, yet Christ said a wicked generation seeks a sign.
We are indeed in a temporary phase as we approach the next age,
What excites ne is that we are told of a more glorious state of being than what the Jews saw as Moses would  come down from the mount.
We are indeed being changed from glory to glory.
Christ did not try to convert every one so why do we?
As far as the east is from the west so are our sins in His sight, so why do we look at them?

Sorry, just rambling.

[Ross]

One of those interesting questions that does not seem to pop up too much;
What happens to the people who died before Christ was resurrected?
I never even used to think about that when I used to atend church.
IMO this is the reason why the last shall be first and the first last.
The first being before the resurrection of Christ and the last being after that resurrection.
Christ used to say that He did not want the Jews to know too much because then He would have to heal them, and that would impede His sacrifice and make it unnecessary.
All this is the sort of thing Paul seemed to be trying to convey. He always seemed to be trying to encourage people to look to a brighter future.
C.U

[lomarah]

Lots of good stuff in that thread for sure! I was actually up reading for quite a while last night, old threads, there are some real gems on these boards to glean from, that's for sure! One of my new faves is Experiencing the Tabernacle that Nathan started, great stuff in there!

http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/experiencing-the-tabernacle/

[Deena]

Good stuff here.  Thank you all very much.

[Molly]

Psalm 51:10 Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.


For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.  Eph 2:10


Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love


Ephesians 4:24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

[Paul L]

Ahh ....what a beautiful morning with the cool mountain breezes gently flowing through my open windows. Summertime passes all too quickly it seems, often-time causing my thoughts to return to memories of things past, giving God thankfulness for the present, and above all hope for the future.

I don't really know how to explain it... just that He showed me via the Spirit that we knew beforehand what we were coming here for. I'm going to give you a link to a post that Cardinal made a while back that I found so beautiful and brought me to tears that tells of a vision that God also gave to her about this. Hope this helps. :)

I read the link you made to Card. Of course pleasant dreams are a great source of comfort in our daily lives. The source of dreams are derived as a product of our day to day activities so far as anyone can evaluate from a human psychology  standpoint where our environment is the most influencing factor. Our most deep rooted experiences   are the most common basis of dreaming activity in the brain. Dreaming is associated with the information processing methodology  of the brain which i turn forges the basis for memory recall of our awakened hours of the day. If the dreaming process is diminished by any form of sleep apnea (usually drugs), the memory recall process can be impaired. But basically it is often our opinions about current events which form much of the basis of our dreams.

It would appear to me that Card has had strong pre-dream opinions about something to do with "pre-mortalism", this formed the basis for the dream  of which he so eloquently wrote. We dream about things that are deep rooted beliefs, which however are not predictive of the future or reminisces of the past. Of those orbs of light if they are indeed true, I queried in my mind a debate three of them were having as to which of them would become Stalin, Hitler, or Mao-Tse Tung, the three greatest mass murderers of human history.  Do you see the problem I'm having here? 

I realize in Ecc 12:7-8 that all humans have a spirit that returns to God upon death. That means that spirit had to be in existence before our birth (or maybe conception) or God could not have given it in the first place. However, scripture gives us no clue as to the state of consciousness of that spirit prior to our appearance on Earth.

We know from Job 38:7 that there were Sons of God who were in existence in heaven at the time the world was created. We also know that the members of the Body of Christ are called "sons & daughters " 2 Cor 6:18 and in other places, the debate is are these all the same people at different points in time. Couple this with Paul's teachings of the pre-destination of the Body of Christ and a lot of things seem plausible. I guess we'll just have to wait only a short while longer to get the answer.

[lomarah]

Well you'll only have to wait a short while longer. :)
If God tells me something I know it's true. :)

Blessings!

[lomarah]

Btw God very clearly uses dreams in the Bible to speak to us and said that in the last days He would give these dreams to many. I can see where if you've never had one of those experiences it would be easy to say that Cardinal just dreamed what was already in her head. However Cardinal is quite familiar with dreams from God and knows how to recognize His voice extremely clearly. Couple this with the fact that she DIDN'T have preconceived notions about all of that and it's obvious Who it was from. (Well it's obvious to me lol...)

Hearing this stuff for the first time was wild for me too but I've since experienced a lot of what Card has spoken about on the forum. The Word is living and active and God is moving among His people. :)

[se7engames]

Wow, very cool revelations guys, I love it!

I think that our Father gave us His best (Jesus)! And that He freely gives knowledge, widsom and understanding to His Kids.

So if I have a question, I ask Him and He never fails to tell me, and he puts it in a way that I can understand it for now. Later, I may want to go deeper and i'll ask again, and He'll show me more truth. Like peeling away an onion. Or going from the second grade to the third grade. I have to understand THIS before I can get to THAT.  And I think we are all in different "grades" so to speak in different subjects on truth.

all you guy's posts, this is some graduate level stuff! Love it :)

[jabcat]

The things that are seen are temporary,
the things that are not seen are eternal.
As far as the east is from the west so are our sins in His sight, so why do we look at them?

This spoke to me today.  Thanks.  I'll add this from Casting Crowns;

Jesus, can You show me just how far the east is from the west
'cause I can't bear to see the man I've been come rising up in me again
In the arms of Your mercy I find rest
'cause You know just how far the east is from the west
From one scarred hand to the other

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=how%20far%20the%20east%20is%20from%20the%20west%20lyrics&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CE8QtwIwAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DCy4ytwKfjBI&ei=ATEgULjJEeWciQLb2oHYDA&usg=AFQjCNGBX_W9InE8O6tMwLx3JPo4xdv5ig

(I can't view streaming videos sometimes on this particular computer, plz let me know if the video's not OK)

[lomarah]

Yes for sure se7en, precept upon precept right? :) (This is also why a good solid foundational knowledge of the OT comes in VERY handy!) 

[jugghead]

I read the link you made to Card. Of course pleasant dreams are a great source of comfort in our daily lives. The source of dreams are derived as a product of our day to day activities so far as anyone can evaluate from a human psychology  standpoint where our environment is the most influencing factor. Our most deep rooted experiences   are the most common basis of dreaming activity in the brain. Dreaming is associated with the information processing methodology  of the brain which i turn forges the basis for memory recall of our awakened hours of the day. If the dreaming process is diminished by any form of sleep apnea (usually drugs), the memory recall process can be impaired. But basically it is often our opinions about current events which form much of the basis of our dreams.

If our faith is confined within the bounderies of the psychology of men, how can our walk with God advamce?

[Paul L]

If our faith is confined within the bounderies of the psychology of men, how can our walk with God advamce?

I made no intimation concerning "faith" & "dreams". I was simply passing along the present state of science with regard to why all humans (many animals too) sleep in a dream state, that it is the normal  manner by which we function as normal healthy adults. The "science" of the dream state of sleep is quite clear that the primary functions of the dream state is that it is a necessary information processing mechanism which if interrupted leads to problems with memory recall.

I fail to see what the association is to "faith" that you made. It is clear in scripture that God uses the dream state to reveal things to specific people concerning prophetic events, but that is not the norm. Most dreams have no intended function for the revealing of prophecy in the "latter days",  however the dream state can be a useful vehicle by which that can occur, but I'll state it again, is not the norm.

I'm real careful about the usefulness of the passing scenes of my dream states. I am not a prophet nor a teacher of scripture, I simply read scripture & believe it while doing my best to interpret it from the original languages in which it was written.

[redhotmagma]

Hey Paul, God not speaking in dreams is not the norm according to whom?