Author Topic: What A Mess?  (Read 7934 times)

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Offline jabcat

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What A Mess?
« on: August 02, 2012, 07:43:30 AM »
I've often thought of all the different denominations, opinions, disparate views, teachings, Bible translations, etc.  IMO, there obviously is a lot of error, none of us 100% in error, none of us 100% knowing all truth.  We all have our own personalities, emotional and mental capabilities and liabilities that come into play.  I believe there definitely are outright deceivers, charlatans just seeking power, glory, money ("Lord, Lord, didn't we...?).  Also, I believe there are well-meaning people that don't have a spiritual basis from which to share, so just share through logic and the natural mind.  And lastly, I believe there are those who are spiritually reborn through saving faith in Yashua Messiah, some having vast amounts of truth and sharing some great things for consideration and edification.  Yet we all look through a glass darkly, none of us has every single bit of truth, and have our points of inadequacy - even the capacity to be fooled ourselves and lead others astray, albeit unknowingly and unintentionally.

There are thousands of denominations and hundreds of Bible translations.  They/we obviously can't all be right.  The scriptures mean what they mean, no prophecy (a divinely inspired utterance or revelation) is for private interpretation.  When God spoke/speaks, I don't believe He is vague or unsure or doesn't know what He means.  Yet humanity, including Christendom, is scattered all over the place.  And I've thought, "WHAT A MESS!"

Gary A. has stated that this is an age of the mixture of truth and error.  How I agree.  And it's puzzled me quite a bit.  I believe God works all things according to the counsel of His will.  So what's His will?  If He wanted everything 100% perfectly clear at this moment, He could "snap His fingers" and make it so - instantly.  So as it appears to my limited view at times, why do we have "all the mess"? 

Maybe it's not a mess after all, because He's working it all to fulfill His plan!

Given that I don't believe we can always understand God's ways, still, today it came to me that perhaps the reason is, that in our human experience full of such confusion and uncertainty, we are "forced" to look to HIM and trust in HIM?  That even when all else fails, people you counted on let you down, disappoint you, even come against you - HE is there?  There with an "easy yoke", ready to comfort, ready to speak and calm the seas?  Could it be that everything else around is made to be so frail and unpredictable, that of necessity, our focus is continually being brought back to Him, THE ROCK, and for us to remember to hide in the cleft of the Rock?

"Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, You are with me.  Your rod and your staff comfort me.  I will dwell in the House of the Lord ["your presence"] forever."   Amen. 

"Be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world".
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 06:49:50 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline lomarah

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Re: What A Mess?
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2012, 09:40:26 AM »
Now jab here is a post that I can give a very hearty

AMEN!!!!
 
:dsunny:

(Def felt the Spirit there!)
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline jabcat

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Re: What A Mess?
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2012, 11:46:29 AM »
gr, good post, and I think this topic is pretty wide open and can go in many directions.

I guess in general, I've presented a main thought I have about why all the confusion and frailty of this lowered condition.  So running that out there, as well as it's open to others' thoughts of why, what's the purpose (not to "question God" exactly, but more so to better understand - either way, I believe it's ours to humble ourselves before Him and just trust Him.)

The thought of testing is a good one that I hadn't thought of exactly.  I agree.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline onlytruth

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Re: What A Mess?
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2012, 01:19:56 PM »
What can be shaken will, we are being led to listen to the spirit,but as we do I hope we all will remain friends in order to encourage each other
Blessings to all in the desert

Offline reFORMer

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Re: What A Mess?
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2012, 02:36:00 PM »
"For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to [his] ways." (Job 3411 KJV)

"Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek [it] out, yet he shall not find [it]; yea further; though a wise [man] think to know [it], yet shall he not be able to find [it]." (Ecc 817 KJV)

I haven't found the verse yet, but the second half, the meaning of which I am more certain exists, says something like, "...that thou canst not find out His ways."  Perhaps the first part, which I am less certain is the reason for the second part, says something like, "For verily He is a God that hideth Himself..."  There just seem to be no matches in blueletterbible.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Molly

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Re: What A Mess?
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2012, 03:01:57 PM »

Certainly, you are a God who has hidden himself. You are the God of Israel, the Savior!

--Isa 45:15

Offline Molly

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Re: What A Mess?
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2012, 03:15:40 PM »


"'God of Abraham, God of Isaac, God of Joseph," not of philosophers and scholars."

--Blaise Pascal

Offline reFORMer

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Re: What A Mess?
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2012, 03:22:28 PM »
In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity consider: God also hath set the one over against the other, to the end that man should find nothing after him. (Ecc 714)
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Molly

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Re: What A Mess?
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2012, 03:54:51 PM »


 I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.

--Gen 31:13

Offline Molly

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Re: What A Mess?
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2012, 04:01:17 PM »

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am El-Shaddai--'God Almighty.'

--Gen 17:1

Offline Ross

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Re: What A Mess?
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2012, 05:22:26 PM »
One of the points about ages seems to be covered to many and known by some.
There is an age to come before the Great White Throne. IMO this is a time to do much explaining and clarifying about who we really are and what was going on while we were in the previous age where the ruler of that age and world was satan.
Christ acknowledged satan was ruler when He was tested in the wilderness. But He then stated that He was of a different world;
John 18;36 " My kingdom is NOT of this world: If My kingdom had been of this world mine own officers wpuld have been striving that I should not be delivered up to the Jews."
This seems to highlight that the plan goes much deeper than we are able to perceive and is so specific.
This would seem to be highlighted in 1 Cor 15;22,23 " For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christshall ALL be made alive, BUT each IN HIS OWN RANK;
Christ a firstfruit,
after that they who are  the Christ's in His presence,
afterwards the end.."
Fellow brother in Christ

Offline Ross

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Re: What A Mess?
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2012, 07:19:20 PM »
1 Cor 15;24,25 " Afterwards the end, whensoever He shall bring to nought ALL rules
and ALL authority,
and power;
for He must needs reign until He shall put ALL His enemies under His feet."
unknown amount of time/ages while people are learning the significance of who we are, and why we are here, and what this is all about as people are taught.

In my previous I notice saying an age to come before the Great White Throne- this is not meant to be a separate age to the G.W.T but participating in the actual age
Fellow brother in Christ

Offline Molly

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Re: What A Mess?
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2012, 02:14:19 AM »
I just read that verse yesterday!

 I watch, and am as a sparrow alone upon the house top." (Psa. 102:7)


Sparrows are not always seen alone, as this one is, but this lone-liness is more in the nature of the bigger birds.

I am like a pelican of the wilderness: I am like an owl of the desert. (Psa 102:6)


As important as groups are, our God wants us alone, and communicating just with him.

The LORD is my rock, my fortress, and my savior; my God is my rock, in whom I find protection. He is my shield, the power that saves me, and my place of safety. (Psa 18:2)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 02:17:21 AM by Molly »

Offline jabcat

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Re: What A Mess?
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2012, 08:47:42 AM »
So most of the scriptures referenced in the thread seem to me to be saying that God only allows us to know/understand so much;  purposefully not giving us the full picture or full view of Himself.  If so, I agree, and it goes along with the "mess" of the OP.  "Know" and understand what He gives us to, but always, trust and belief in HIM.   :2c: 
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: What A Mess?
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2012, 09:14:14 AM »
There was also a post that now is missing for some reason  :dontknow: that suggested there could be a 'testing' component involved.

If so, even though underneath it all is a need to trust Him, if we're being tested, wouldn't that be to sharpen our search and strengthen what truth we do find?
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Deena

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Re: What A Mess?
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2012, 09:55:58 PM »
Good questions, Jab. I have often thought it is a wonder that we knoww anything.  From personal experience, up till a couple years ago, I was rooted and acted in some beliefs that I thought were true. I fiercely guarded myself from "wrong doctrine" and would only read what fit in with those narrow views. On top of that, bouts of terrible self doubt and depression clouded anything positive about God. How did God get through to me? I was too desperate to say no. When He showed me the real gospel, I had no walls left that I cared protecting. The "mess" of it all (as you call it) is frustrating. God is the only one with the power, but how do we move His hands? Prayer? Sometimes even that feels futile, for He will do as He wills. What keeps me grounded is knowing His ultimate plan for us is good, to give us a future and hope, that all will be answered at Christ's appearing when we shall know as we are also known. What a glorious day that will be. Till then abide in faith, hope and love. Jesus come quickly!

Offline lomarah

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Re: What A Mess?
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2012, 10:01:03 PM »
Amen Deena!
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline jabcat

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Re: What A Mess?
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2012, 03:49:24 AM »
Good questions, Jab. I have often thought it is a wonder that we knoww anything.  From personal experience, up till a couple years ago, I was rooted and acted in some beliefs that I thought were true. I fiercely guarded myself from "wrong doctrine" and would only read what fit in with those narrow views. On top of that, bouts of terrible self doubt and depression clouded anything positive about God. How did God get through to me? I was too desperate to say no. When He showed me the real gospel, I had no walls left that I cared protecting. The "mess" of it all (as you call it) is frustrating. God is the only one with the power, but how do we move His hands? Prayer? Sometimes even that feels futile, for He will do as He wills. What keeps me grounded is knowing His ultimate plan for us is good, to give us a future and hope, that all will be answered at Christ's appearing when we shall know as we are also known. What a glorious day that will be. Till then abide in faith, hope and love. Jesus come quickly!

Beautiful.   :gthumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline dajomaco

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Re: What A Mess?
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2012, 04:13:16 AM »
for we were born only yesterday and know nothing, and our days on earth are but a shadow.

The 'gods' know nothing, they understand nothing. They walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

Know that there is nothing better for people than to be happy and to do good while they live.


When we look at all the religious doctrines ,mysterious and spiritually enlightening
verses of the bible.
A person can't learn any more about God than Jesus.

For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

Offline jabcat

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Re: What A Mess?
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2012, 05:23:48 AM »
for we were born only yesterday and know nothing, and our days on earth are but a shadow.

The 'gods' know nothing, they understand nothing. They walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

Know that there is nothing better for people than to be happy and to do good while they live.


When we look at all the religious doctrines ,mysterious and spiritually enlightening
verses of the bible.
A person can't learn any more about God than Jesus.

For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

 :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Paul L

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Re: What A Mess?
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2012, 10:15:58 PM »
The "mess" of it all (as you call it) is frustrating. God is the only one with the power, but how do we move His hands? Prayer? Sometimes even that feels futile,...... What keeps me grounded is knowing His ultimate plan for us is good, to give us a future and hope, that all will be answered at Christ's appearing

Deena, I can hardly express in words how much I have the same musings. A few weeks ago I listened to the country singer Reba McIntyre be interviewed about her Christian walk. At the end of the interview a question posed to her was: "When you see God face to face,  what is going to be your first question?" She responded with: "Why".

The context Reba placed it in had everything to do with this discussion but with a focus on human pain (the central nervous system of the human body), all the same things I have been screaming at God about for several years now. Why all this pain? Why is it so necessary on top of all the confusing about doctrine? After literally screaming to God for an answer to her question because I don't want to wait as long as she does for an answer, I discovered it. Read Ecc 1: 13. Read it in any translation  but in Concordant it reads:"It is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it", other translations use "affliction". And Ecc 3: 10-11 expands upon this in addition to God stating he has deliberately placed us in obscurity about his plan (vs. 11).

The only way I can logically understand these two above noted passages, is that God created us in decadent bodies with a central nervous system solely for the experience of feeling pain, no other reason. None of the celestial hosts of heaven, save for Christ himself, have ever had the experience of bodily pain & decadence. It is precisely for this reason we will forever rule over them in Christ's Kingdom that will be without end. Bodily pain creates feelings of humility which the celestial hosts cannot feel, that is why demonic spirits truly do believe but "repent not" as Christ stated it,  if there are no painful consequences to evil deeds then there is no incentive to change evil patterns of behavior.

Why do you think Satan & a third of the heavenly hosts have been rebelling against God from time immemorial? They have never been made to suffer the consequences of their actions, but we feel it every time  we sprain an ankle or hit a finger with a hammer. Satan & the demonic hosts who populate the Universe were never created in God's visible image (as opposed to demonics who have animalistic features), all humans were  created in God's image with the additional caveat of the privilege of being able to feel bodily pain. We don't presently feel as if "feeling physical pain" is a privilege, but it is part of the hidden plan about which God has placed "obscurity in their heart" (our hearts).

As we go through this life suffering the consequences of pain via the central nervous system, it is indeed a humbling experience, The less pain people experience in life the greater their disposition to arrogance becomes. Most rich people suffer far less from pain than the extremely poor simply because they have the means to avoid many painstaking day to day activities that involve hard work.

I hope this makes sense to you, it is the best comfort I have for "evil days" in my life yet to come, and indeed for all of us. I think it answers Reba's question about "Why".

Offline Paul L

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Re: What A Mess?
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2012, 12:12:47 AM »

I haven't found the verse yet, but the second half, the meaning of which I am more certain exists, says something like, "...that thou canst not find out His ways."  Perhaps the first part, which I am less certain is the reason for the second part, says something like, "For verily He is a God that hideth Himself..."  There just seem to be no matches in blueletterbible.

It is Ecc 3:11 & Deut 29:29.

Offline Deena

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Re: What A Mess?
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2012, 02:45:54 AM »
Paul, that is a fascinating premise--the "privilege" of pain, but I hate pain.  I hate it so much I will medicate myself not to feel it.  What does that say about us?  Sometimes this life is too much to bear, and I can only choke out a groan in my prayer.  When I am done swinging at God, He is still the One with the power and the answer. My only option is surrender. Perhaps that's the point.

Offline Deena

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Re: What A Mess?
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2012, 03:18:18 AM »
When I ask God what is this life for, I seem to get this answer:  We must all go through this process of death (here on earth in these bodies of humiliation) to be brought into life (resurrection/newness of life), and my job here/now is to help those who are on the same road as I am on (all people), to help each other that we might bear up under it. 

Those who endure/overcome are simply those who can face our tragic experience and still believe He has us in the palm of His hand and trust Him.  Like Job... though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.  Blessed are those who do not see, and yet believe.

But then again, what do I know?  :) 

Offline Molly

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Re: What A Mess?
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2012, 03:38:08 AM »
Isaiah 48:10 See, I have refined you, though not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.

Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.


"tested"
H977
בּחר
bâchar
baw-khar'
A primitive root; properly to try, that is, (by implication) select: - acceptable, appoint, choose (choice), excellent, join, be rather, require.



He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness,   Mal 3:3


I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.  Rom 12:1


« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 03:42:38 AM by Molly »