Author Topic: What's Missing?  (Read 2702 times)

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Offline jabcat

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What's Missing?
« on: February 11, 2011, 09:08:13 AM »
I saw someone posting on another site that is apparently made up mostly of brothers and sisters that believe in ET, say the following;

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.  I John 12:32 KJV)

All men are drawn to the cross, no exceptions. That's the point where one's eternal destiny is decided."


The conversation then went along the lines of "we have to warn them".


What things do you see missing in the above scenario?

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: What's Missing?
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2011, 09:24:15 AM »
A highly skilled shepherd.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: What's Missing?
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2011, 09:32:57 AM »
 :thumbsup:  That's a good one.  "99 is not enough".  The shepherd went out, to search for his sheep..."

What else?  I'm thinking about some things in particular and how it's ignored/denied in ET (or ED).

I either explained it away or missed it for most of my life.   
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 09:38:10 AM by jabcat »

Offline CHB

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Re: What's Missing?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2011, 05:35:41 PM »
Most believe Jesus draws everyone to him but most turn away, or reject him. I see the verse as saying, I Jesus, if I am resurrected, I will drag or make sure everyone accepts me.

CHB

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: What's Missing?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2011, 06:36:37 PM »
Most believe Jesus draws everyone to him but most turn away, or reject him. I see the verse as saying, I Jesus, if I am resurrected, I will drag or make sure everyone accepts me.

CHB
A shepherd uses 'force' to get sheep back into the flock. He uses a dog and a rod (of iron)
Ask sheep to return to the flock and it does  :dontknow: and continues getting lost even more.
Sheep need to be actively pushed/dragged/or even scared (by the dog) into the flock. And not once in a lifetime but daily.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

LS

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Re: What's Missing?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2011, 07:04:10 PM »
I saw someone posting on another site that is apparently made up mostly of brothers and sisters that believe in ET, say the following;

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.  I John 12:32 KJV)

All men are drawn to the cross, no exceptions. That's the point where one's eternal destiny is decided."


The conversation then went along the lines of "we have to warn them".


What things do you see missing in the above scenario?
Hi jabcat - what I see missing is the rest of the chapter. I'm not being flippant but there are two important things that for me, go beyond that one line.

First of all is the line directly after:
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Verse 33 in part explains verse 32 - I don't think it is talking about when Jesus is lifted up into the heavens, but when He is lifted up onto the cross.  And I am a huge believer that all are drawn to Him even if we don't know His name or have heard of Him ... I think it's the Romans passage again that the law is written on our hearts and some people obey it, others don't.

Second, I look at verses 48 and 50. Jesus is speaking the Father's words of everlasting life (verse 50) but we see clearly in verse 48 that some reject it and therefore do not receive it.

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

I know I'm not changing any of your minds and I'm really not attempting to ... but that is very honestly how I read this and it is so clear to me. Your op indicates that you think someone like me might be explaining it away and/or ignoring it, so I just wanted to explain what I see    :dontknow:

Offline shawn

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Re: What's Missing?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2011, 07:26:06 PM »
Most believe Jesus draws everyone to him but most turn away, or reject him. I see the verse as saying, I Jesus, if I am resurrected, I will drag or make sure everyone accepts me.

CHB
A shepherd uses 'force' to get sheep back into the flock. He uses a dog and a rod (of iron)
Ask sheep to return to the flock and it does  :dontknow: and continues getting lost even more.
Sheep need to be actively pushed/dragged/or even scared (by the dog) into the flock. And not once in a lifetime but daily.

Amen.

Offline shawn

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Re: What's Missing?
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2011, 07:34:36 PM »
I saw someone posting on another site that is apparently made up mostly of brothers and sisters that believe in ET, say the following;

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.  I John 12:32 KJV)

All men are drawn to the cross, no exceptions. That's the point where one's eternal destiny is decided."


The conversation then went along the lines of "we have to warn them".


What things do you see missing in the above scenario?
Hi jabcat - what I see missing is the rest of the chapter. I'm not being flippant but there are two important things that for me, go beyond that one line.

First of all is the line directly after:
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Verse 33 in part explains verse 32 - I don't think it is talking about when Jesus is lifted up into the heavens, but when He is lifted up onto the cross.  And I am a huge believer that all are drawn to Him even if we don't know His name or have heard of Him ... I think it's the Romans passage again that the law is written on our hearts and some people obey it, others don't.

Second, I look at verses 48 and 50. Jesus is speaking the Father's words of everlasting life (verse 50) but we see clearly in verse 48 that some reject it and therefore do not receive it.

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

I know I'm not changing any of your minds and I'm really not attempting to ... but that is very honestly how I read this and it is so clear to me. Your op indicates that you think someone like me might be explaining it away and/or ignoring it, so I just wanted to explain what I see    :dontknow:

I'm not sure anyone here would disagree with you about how you see that passage.  I doubt any would disagree that Jesus draws all men unto himself and while on earth some reject and some accept.  But, I'm not sure that is the point they are eluding to here.  I think some of the problem lies in the thought that once again men have to complete the work of Jesus.  He is drawing, but yet we have to comb the streets to warn people.  Jesus died for all of man's sins but we need to be close to sinless and believe the right doctrine to be saved.

For me this isn't about UR, vs ED, vs ET this post is about man's notion that we have to complete the works of salvation.

Offline jabcat

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Re: What's Missing?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2011, 08:29:09 PM »
Most believe Jesus draws everyone to him but most turn away, or reject him. I see the verse as saying, I Jesus, if I am resurrected, I will drag or make sure everyone accepts me.

CHB

C, you're the closest to the main point of what I was seeing.  I actually do disagree that all men are drawn in this lifetime, which is what I believe is so noticeable in the OP.  Vessels the Potter has fit for dishonor in this life, to serve God's over-all purpose, I would contend have not been drawn to the cross, and won't be until the next age - once the purpose is served. 

I disagree that having some sense of being aware of God and having that affect works/character, as still being very different from salvation.  Salvation is coming face to face with the Savior and being given the faith to believe on and trust in Him as our Savior.   Millions have never heard the name of Jesus, have no idea he's the Savior/Messiah - it's not their time in this age.   And yes, brother Shawn, I agree, Jesus does the works through us, not our own effort.   We are given faith to believe, not exercise our own manufactured faith to be saved.

So again, my main point of the OP is that I personally think it's obvious that not all men are drawn to the cross in this lifetime.  Which means, when it comes to either ED, ET, or God's ultimate reconciliation of His creation ....
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 08:37:31 PM by jabcat »

LS

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Re: What's Missing?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2011, 09:11:12 PM »
But then, jabcat, aren't you reading an awful lot into what is not written or given to us to know in this lifetime?

I accept the conjecture that maybe in the next life there is another chance; certainly there is much more to come that we simply aren't told about. But to teach that certain things will happen/are true that simply are not explicity stated ... that bothers me.

I just think we have to be so, so careful and on guard that our beliefs come from what scripture says; we should never work it backward, starting with "our" beliefs and then interpreting scripture from there   :mblush:


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: What's Missing?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2011, 09:24:54 PM »
From another thread:
John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Nobody sees Jesus in this life. So doesn't that verse makes a strong case for after death repentance/conversion?
I was thinking about the Thomas/seeing/not seeing situation.

Without looking, does it say anywhere that those who do see and believe are somehow discounted, or just that those who believe without seeing are blessed (especially, not exclusively)?
For me the verse strongly states believing without seeing gives blessings. Pehaps being part of the millenium Kingdom?
But most importantly; it doesn't mean that those that only believe when they see are doomed. Jesus was very friendly to Thomas. No indication at all Thomas would suffer for eternity.

What's you view on that Little Saint?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: What's Missing?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2011, 09:28:53 PM »
Edited - What are we charged to teach?    "we place our hope on the Living God, who is THE SAVIOR OF ALL MEN...  Charge these things and teach".
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 10:03:13 PM by jabcat »

Offline Lefein

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Re: What's Missing?
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2011, 09:31:24 PM »
Quote
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.  I John 12:32 KJV)

All men are drawn to the cross, no exceptions. That's the point where one's eternal destiny is decided."

Well...Jesus certainly was lifted up on a cross.  But, is it possible that when Jesus was lifted up, he did indeed at that moment draw all mankind unto himself, and behold "it is finished"?

Adam died, and dragged all of mankind down with him.  Christ died, and dragged all mankind to himself, away from Adam (drawing even perhaps, Adam himself to Himself).  And when Christ resurrected, to live again forever more - is it possible that all mankind now indeed lives because of Christ?

In Adam all die, in Christ all live?
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

LS

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Re: What's Missing?
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2011, 09:46:14 PM »
That's funny LS, because I wouldn't have come right out and accused you of doing what you're suggesting I'm doing.  But honestly, I also think you and others who believe in ET/ED do the same thing.  I had already thought it,  I just wasn't going to say it.   I guess that's a good reason to not judge others or their motives, huh?  I don't believe I'm somehow totally "working backwards".  For 35 years I also believed God would viciously/lovingly burn His creation, and viewed the scriptures through my own personal veil to try and make them fit my belief.   

I sent jabcat a pm, but I also wanted to publically apologize; I didn't mean to be accusatory or judgmental but only as a caution for all of us. I'm sorry for the way it came out, jabcat.

Offline jabcat

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Re: What's Missing?
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2011, 09:50:28 PM »
I pm'ed you back, with an apology of my own for taking offense and responding in like manner.  We can either "grow up"  :laughing7: and both edit our posts  :HeartThrob:, or maybe others may benefit from what all is here?  Mistakes and all?   :mblush:


Edit - I went ahead and edited mine.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 10:03:51 PM by jabcat »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: What's Missing?
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2011, 10:08:28 PM »
Quote
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.  I John 12:32 KJV)

All men are drawn to the cross, no exceptions. That's the point where one's eternal destiny is decided."

Well...Jesus certainly was lifted up on a cross.  But, is it possible that when Jesus was lifted up, he did indeed at that moment draw all mankind unto himself, and behold "it is finished"?
Very possible Lefein...


LONTJohn 12
32 As for me, when I shall be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to myself.
33 This he said, alluding to the death which he was to suffer.





1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: What's Missing?
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2011, 10:27:11 PM »
John 12:32 (King James Version)

 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.





LS, there is a double entendre to that verse...[in addition to what Lefein and ww said]..

"if I be lifted up"

G5312
ὑψόω
hupsoō
hoop-so'-o
From G5311; to elevate (literally or figuratively): - exalt, lift up.



Exodus 15:2
The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.



Micah 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.


So if he is exalted from the earth, lifted up above the earth,  he will drag all men to/with/next to him.

But, he is.  His death includes his resurrection.  Therefore the promise stands true.



9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

--Phil 2


He is not only exalted [hupsoo], he is highly exalted by God...

"highly exalted"

G5251
ὑπερυψόω
huperupsoō
hoop-er-oop-so'-o
From G5228 and G5312; to elevate above others, that is, raise to the highest position: - highly exalt.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 10:50:47 PM by Molly »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: What's Missing?
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2011, 10:54:23 PM »
From G5311; to elevate (literally or figuratively): - exalt, lift up.
And that's exactly the reason I posted verse 33.
Lifting up gets twisted into meaning: worship.
From that follows only worshippers will be drawn. Meaning the action comes from mankind instead of Jesus.
They are pushing Jesus to be drawn :winkgrin:

BUT....
Verse 33 clearly states the lifting up is about crucifixion. "alluding to the death which he was to suffer"
The drawing was done in the hours on the cross. And I believe Lefein is right it finsihed moment before His death.
So right now He isn't drawing anymore.

The snake on the pole cured sick people when they looked at it. So it can be argued that people have to take action by looking at the snake/Jesus.
But the snake didn't draw. Jesus did/does.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: What's Missing?
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2011, 10:59:34 PM »
Quote from: ww
So right now He isn't drawing anymore.

I don't understand the implication of what you're saying right here.

All the men who ever were or who will ever be born were not at the cross.

Or, are you saying they are/were?

That he's already drawn all men to him [past tense]?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 11:02:37 PM by Molly »

Offline shawn

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Re: What's Missing?
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2011, 11:03:39 PM »
But then, jabcat, aren't you reading an awful lot into what is not written or given to us to know in this lifetime?

I accept the conjecture that maybe in the next life there is another chance; certainly there is much more to come that we simply aren't told about. But to teach that certain things will happen/are true that simply are not explicity stated ... that bothers me.

I just think we have to be so, so careful and on guard that our beliefs come from what scripture says; we should never work it backward, starting with "our" beliefs and then interpreting scripture from there   :mblush:

I don't think this is judgmental in the least.  We should be cautious about what we teach.  We should know, and be able to support what we teach.  With that said,I believe Jab has done his homework.  I believe he has come to accept in his spirit something that can't be worked out 100% through scriptures.  We can say that for every view of judgment.  I also see things a bit differently than your last sentence.  I used to see it that way.  But, I am one of my Saviors sheep and I can hear his voice.  Today there are things that I accept in my spirit as truth, yet I can't completely work it out from a scriptural standpoint.  My relationship isn't limited to the scriptures but includes and encompasses Holy Spirit revelation.  With that said, I don't believe everything revealed to me is meant for everyone, nor do I believe everything revealed to you is for everyone.

Today, I am very careful about what I do teach.  It's why I take an agnostic stance on the judgment of mankind.  With that said, I have a great hope in my spirit in UR (or as you like to say US) :)

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: What's Missing?
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2011, 11:18:21 PM »
Quote from: ww
So right now He isn't drawing anymore.

I don't understand the implication of what you're saying right here.

All the men who ever were or who will ever be born were not at the cross.

Or, are you saying they are/were?

That he's already drawn all men to him [past tense]?
It's easy.
Is Jesus recrucified every day to cover new sins?
No nearly 2000 years ago He also covered for the sins I commited today.
I didn't sin before Jesus died. Still all my sins are covered even before I commit them.

So in that line of thinking can't the drawing be finished also?
Maybe it already happend at teh foundation of the world.
Man is created IN His image.
Man is created INSIDE His image.
We are alreday in Jesus.

I'm sure someone can dig up a few verses to give me a hard time  :teaching:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: What's Missing?
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2011, 11:33:36 PM »
Quote from: ww
So right now He isn't drawing anymore.

I don't understand the implication of what you're saying right here.

All the men who ever were or who will ever be born were not at the cross.

Or, are you saying they are/were?

That he's already drawn all men to him [past tense]?
It's easy.
Is Jesus recrucified every day to cover new sins?
No nearly 2000 years ago He also covered for the sins I commited today.
I didn't sin before Jesus died. Still all my sins are covered even before I commit them.

So in that line of thinking can't the drawing be finished also?
Maybe it already happend at teh foundation of the world.
Man is created IN His image.
Man is created INSIDE His image.
We are alreday in Jesus.

I'm sure someone can dig up a few verses to give me a hard time  :teaching:
  Yes, ok.  I see what you're saying.  But we experience as unfolding in time.  That's why he is the one who is, who was, and who is to come.

Regarding the 'worship' meaning of exalt, I exalt him every day and he draws me to him every day. :bigGrin:   This has many meanings and it doesn't have to be seen as a one time event.

Nevertheless, the meaning still holds true--I will drag all men to me.  No strings attached to that statement.  We are meant [all mankind] to be exalted, also, as co-inheritors with Christ.  But, as Jab and Paul say, each in his order.

Offline jabcat

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Re: What's Missing?
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2011, 12:14:12 AM »
Bingo Molly!  That's what I intended to post before I got caught back up on the thread and saw your post.  It came to me earlier - "is, was, will be".  Just as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.  If God intends it, it's the same as done.  Then it unfolds in practicality according to His plan/timing.  "Each in his own turn."

I can personally witness people are still being drawn today.  Also, Saul was drawn, and even more so - he was captured, made prisoner to the love of Jesus Christ. 

Offline jabcat

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Re: What's Missing?
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2011, 12:37:29 AM »
But then, jabcat, aren't you reading an awful lot into what is not written or given to us to know in this lifetime?

I accept the conjecture that maybe in the next life there is another chance; certainly there is much more to come that we simply aren't told about. But to teach that certain things will happen/are true that simply are not explicity stated ... that bothers me.

I just think we have to be so, so careful and on guard that our beliefs come from what scripture says; we should never work it backward, starting with "our" beliefs and then interpreting scripture from there   :mblush:

I don't think this is judgmental in the least.  We should be cautious about what we teach.  We should know, and be able to support what we teach.  With that said,I believe Jab has done his homework.  I believe he has come to accept in his spirit something that can't be worked out 100% through scriptures.  We can say that for every view of judgment.  I also see things a bit differently than your last sentence.  I used to see it that way.  But, I am one of my Saviors sheep and I can hear his voice.  Today there are things that I accept in my spirit as truth, yet I can't completely work it out from a scriptural standpoint.  My relationship isn't limited to the scriptures but includes and encompasses Holy Spirit revelation.  With that said, I don't believe everything revealed to me is meant for everyone, nor do I believe everything revealed to you is for everyone.

Today, I am very careful about what I do teach.  It's why I take an agnostic stance on the judgment of mankind.  With that said, I have a great hope in my spirit in UR (or as you like to say US) :)

 :bigGrin:  Well, I do believe it can be "worked out" in the scriptures, and I believe it's often shown.  I believe the issue is, we're all veiled to varying extents, until it's our time to see more clearly.  So often when the clear scriptures are presented, we can only see them through our own veil, unless and until the Holy Spirit illuminates them within us.  Until that time, we can read right over and not be affected by the things that are hidden in plain sight.  Done it, do it.   :2c:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: What's Missing?
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2011, 12:59:57 AM »
AndersonHeb 12
2 looking to Jesus the author and finisher of the faith, who, for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of God.

See Jesus does all the work.
The Shepherd searches (author) the sheep (mankind) are put into (finisher) the fold (heaven)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...