deliver unto the adversary

[micah7:9]

How does one go about this? Do I pray the person to be delivered to the adversary? Shouldnt I just pray for the person?
Or is it a matter of just turning the person out of my prayer life and let what ever will be will be?

1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,

1Co 5:5 To deliver such a one as this, unto Satan, for the destruction of the flesh,––that, the spirit, may be saved in the day of the Lord.

[Lefein]

In the original Greek, and CLV: see attachment.

CLV 1C 5:5 to give up such a one to Satan for the extermination of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Basically, it is not actively delivering so much (as far as I can see) but leaving one to the natural consequences of sin.  "Throw up your hands, leave them to their fate" in essence.

Or indeed as the Greek literally says; "give up"

[Cardinal]

  IMO, the only way Paul would have done that is if the Spirit expressly and personally told him to do/pray that, because taking something like that upon yourself to do, would be a swift guarantee of bringing oneself into judgment, apart from the Spirit telling you to do so. In that case, then it's the LORD'S judgment which is unto victory and removes the person praying out of the "loup", so to speak. Blessings....

[micah7:9]

Perhaps the adversary/serpent is the flesh as in
Gen 3:6  And the woman seeth that the tree is good for food, and that it is pleasant to the eyes, and the tree is desirable to make one wise, and she taketh of its fruit and eateth, and giveth also to her husband with her, and he doth eat;
1Co 5:5 To deliver such a one as this, unto Satan ( the flesh) ("removes the person praying out of the "loup", so to speak"  "but leaving one to the natural consequences of sin." )   , for the destruction of the flesh

[Lefein]

May I ask out of curiosity?

Why is it important or seemingly prioritous to connect, or synonymise Satan with our bodies/flesh?

I promise, I ask this out of genuine curiousity, not out of contempt, or anything, and I apologise ahead of time if I sound that way.

[micah7:9]

May I ask out of curiosity?

Why is it important or seemingly prioritous to connect, or synonymise Satan with our bodies/flesh?

I promise, I ask this out of genuine curiousity, not out of contempt, or anything, and I apologise ahead of time if I sound that way.

No not at all.
I believe that the enemy/adversary/opponent must be and has been close to man since the beginning, at least thats what the Bible states. At this point my reasoning what is closer than the flesh, and has all the attributes/senses to overcome the vessel it covers. You have stated as truth that "to hate is to murder," from what does that hate come from, I say the flesh. Now, to look deeper into this we can say the mind is the instigator, and the same I contend was awaken in Genesis 2:23 and that same mind, when awakened heeded to the appettie which was baited with the lie in Genesis 3:1 which I will contend works right along with the flesh.

[Lefein]

My misunderstanding into your purpose then.  My apologies.

However, I would like to add to your direction if I can.  Adam and Eve (even in their flesh) had only one option to look at when it came to ideology - God.  They knew nothing of sin, sin nature, and other things, they didn't even know what evil or good was until they disobeyed.

I don't think hate came from their flesh, I think it came from the enticer who enticed the potential of it out of them.  Any form of selfishness has a tenancy to divert attention away from God, and that inevitably causes sin.  Here is what I think happened;

The Adversary, a person, or being outside of Adam and Eve enticed Adam and Eve with another option - disobedience for example.  When they took that option, and gained the knowledge of good and evil, their options expanded, and they became aware.

The Bible says that they fled, and hid themselves, and made for themselves skirts of leaves.  These were the first signs of selfish, or "self-facing" actions and lines of thought.  "I am naked, I have sinned, I am afraid, I shall hide myself, []i]I[/i] shall make myself a covering".  Their attention was no longer focused on God, or the God-option, but on Self, and the options that come with it.  Inevitably, their flesh produced the consequences...and became in a way one of their adversaries.  But The Adversary had to direct their attention from God, to the options, and in particularly the option of Self and Self preservation.

Before their disobedience, Adam and Eve did not worry, or think about themselves so much I think, not in any selfish way.  Adam didn't even know he needed a helper, God provided everything.  When one trusts God completely, and considers no other option as valid - he is not selfish, or self preserving.  He is not self-confident, but is God-confident.

We became self-focused in the fall, and so became self-confident, instead of God-focused, and God-confident.  Which was The Adversary's plan, "YOU shall become as gods" - Divert attention from God, and put it on the self.  And when they put it on themselves...then he could proceed to his agendas.  Divide and conquer, divide man from focusing on God, and he can conquer them when he is too busy looking at himself to see the enemy in front of him.

I think you are indeed close, and even correct on alot of things - except that the Adversary is not the flesh itself, but instead brought out the latent potential of its destructive power by making it (the self, the flesh) the center of focus, rather than God.

That is also perhaps how Satan (if Tradition holds truth in this area) fell to begin with.  He was so beautiful that he began to see himself as an option of focus.  He focused on his beauty to such a point, that he stopped focusing on God, and so began to separate from him.  When you stop focusing on God, who is Life, you start dying...And Satan began to get infected, and addicted to focusing on himself until he became self-confident instead of God-confident.  And from self-confidence grows pride, and pride goes before the fall.

[micah7:9]

"They knew nothing of sin, sin nature, and other things, they didn't even know what evil or good was until they disobeyed."

Well, the Lord God told man he would die, man didnt know what death was either, so what was the threat? And I do not accept that man and woman disobeyed, for them to disobey, God would have relinquished His sovreignity. The fall of man... points to man being out of the plan and purpose of God. ( Now we cant go there.)

"That is also perhaps how Satan (if Tradition holds truth in this area) fell to begin with."
You have that right, " if tradition" is true; If you  leave our Isaiah 12 and Ezk. 28, you throw tradition out the window and well you should. I see no place in the Bible(please correct me if I err) where the Adversary was created. I read where the adversary can:
2Co 11:14 And not it is wonderful; himself for the adversary is transformed into a messenger of light;
Please you seem to know your way around the Greek the translation. How does it read in the Greek?
The above is the Emph. Diag. the KJV reads the same.  ASV reads 2Co 11:14  And no marvel; for even Satan fashioneth himself into an angel of light. The Emphatic reads that it is not of his power, where as the ASV says its his power.
I believe it makes a difference.
The reason I say that is if Jesus can do nothing of Himself Joh 5:19  Jesus therefore responded and said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, The Son is not able to do anything of himself, if he may not see the Father doing anything; for whatever things He may do, these also the Son in like manner doth;
Then how could the adversary possiblly do anything like transform himself?

[Cardinal]

Perhaps the adversary/serpent is the flesh as in
Gen 3:6  And the woman seeth that the tree is good for food, and that it is pleasant to the eyes, and the tree is desirable to make one wise, and she taketh of its fruit and eateth, and giveth also to her husband with her, and he doth eat;
1Co 5:5 To deliver such a one as this, unto Satan ( the flesh) ("removes the person praying out of the "loup", so to speak"  "but leaving one to the natural consequences of sin." )   , for the destruction of the flesh

  If that's true, then why did the adversary have to enter Judas?

[micah7:9]

Do you believe that the adversary is more than a principality? I suggest it is the flesh that is susceptible to the wiles of the enemy/devil. Either the flesh is sinful or it is not.  The devil, which means traducer- the accuser which comes from the word diaballō from G1223 which is "dia" which means "channel" the enemy/devil/serpent/adversary uses a channel "to work through."
And as stated Rom 7:18  for I have known that there doth not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh, good: for to will is present with me, and to work that which is right I do not find,
Is the flesh not the channel the devil would use?

[Lefein]

"They knew nothing of sin, sin nature, and other things, they didn't even know what evil or good was until they disobeyed."

Well, the Lord God told man he would die, man didnt know what death was either, so what was the threat? And I do not accept that man and woman disobeyed, for them to disobey, God would have relinquished His sovreignity. The fall of man... points to man being out of the plan and purpose of God. ( Now we cant go there.)

It is of my belief that God anticipates what flows out of harmony with him, and uses it to exponentially increase his glory when he shows his power and realigns it into his purposes.  But indeed we shall not go there.

I'll only point out that there is a difference between having knowledge, and having experience.  See this parable for example:

An old grandma tells her young grandson;

"If you go out after dark in this city, you'll get shot."

Now, the young man knows what a gun is, and a bullet, and has some inkling of an idea that it is all very much dangerous, but he is only a young man after all, and his priorities are still innocent.  And so he stays out late one night and finds himself soon surrounded by a surly gang.  One of them pulls a gun and shoots him in the leg - "Let that be a warning to you" the gang member says.

Now the young man has experience, and it is nothing at all like what he imagined it would be.  The pain is excruciating, and he passes out, he's not nearly as brave as he thought he'd be.

"That is also perhaps how Satan (if Tradition holds truth in this area) fell to begin with."

You have that right, " if tradition" is true; If you  leave our Isaiah 12 and Ezk. 28, you throw tradition out the window and well you should. I see no place in the Bible(please correct me if I err) where the Adversary was created.

When it comes to Tradition, there are two forms of it; Lore, which is good for parables, and applying, and then there is "Traditions of Men" which are made into doctrines.  All I know is that Jesus saw Satan fall like lightning, and he had to fall from somewhere.  Why he fell, was most likely because he sinned, and his sin had to come from somewhere, it probably came out of his own self "inequity was found in him", which probably arose when he started looking at his own beauty.

But I think I will do a study on this, and see what I find, now that I am intrigued.

I read where the adversary can:
2Co 11:14 And not it is wonderful; himself for the adversary is transformed into a messenger of light;

Please you seem to know your way around the Greek the translation. How does it read in the Greek?

KJV: And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
CLV: And no marvel, for Satan samehimself is being transfigured into a messenger of light.

Kai ou thaumaston autos gar ho satanas metaschematizetai eis aggelon photos.

and not marvelous[marvelous-thing] same[himself] for the satan[Heb. Adversary| Satan] is-being-after-figured[is-being-transfigured] into messenger of-light.

My rendering would be: It is not a marvelous thing that Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light.

The word for "himself" is autos, which is also used for example in John 12: 24 in the statements;

Kai ho pempsas me pater autos memartureken peri me:

And the one-sending me Father same[himself] has-witnessed[has-testified] about[concerning] me.

And also in John 16:27;

Autos gar ho pater philei humas hoti humeis eme pephilekate kai pepisteukate hoti ego para tou theou exelthon.

Same[himself] for the father is-being-fond[is-being-fond-of] ye that[seeing-that] me have-been fond[have-been-fond-of] and ye-have-believed[have-believed] that I beside of-the God came-out.

KJV Jn 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
CLV Jn 16:27 for the Father Himself is fond of you, seeing that you are fond of Me, and have believed that I came out from God
 

The above is the Emph. Diag. the KJV reads the same.  ASV reads 2Co 11:14  And no marvel; for even Satan fashioneth himself into an angel of light. The Emphatic reads that it is not of his power, where as the ASV says its his power.
I believe it makes a difference.
The reason I say that is if Jesus can do nothing of Himself Joh 5:19  Jesus therefore responded and said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, The Son is not able to do anything of himself, if he may not see the Father doing anything; for whatever things He may do, these also the Son in like manner doth;
Then how could the adversary possiblly do anything like transform himself?

There are several possible interpretations, and several of which are probably correct. Two that I would list as possible are;

(in context)

2Co 11:12 Now what I am doing and will be doing is that I should strike off the incentive from those wanting an incentive, that in what they are boasting they may be found according as we also. "
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, fraudulent workers, being transfigured into apostles of Christ. "
2Co 11:14 And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light. "
2Co 11:15 It is no great thing, then, if his servants also are being transfigured as dispensers of righteousness - whose consummation shall be according to their acts. "

-CLV

2Co 11:12  But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
2Co 11:13  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

-KJV

1: It is not hard to put on a friendly mask and pretend.  People do it in church all the time; argue in the car all the way there, get to the door and put on a big smile and a "praise the Lord sister Nesbit!" while inside they loathe...Mrs. Nesbit...

2: Satan is being transfigured by people's interpretations, like Satanists and Prometheus cults who put him up as "The beautiful one, Lucifer, who gave us freedom from God, or 'gave us fire(wisdom/choice/etc)'".  Part of this may have something to do with his own power by means of vile encouragement of it.

My interpretation:

11:12 - What I am doing, and will be doing, is take away incentive from those who want it in order that they might boast, and by boasting might affect our image in the eyes of the people we are trying to witness to.
11:13 - For such people are false apostles, and fraudulent workers being transfigured into apostles of Christ.
11:14 - And it is no wonder! Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light.
11:15 - It is no great thing then, if his servants are also being transfigured into apostles, or messengers of light or righteousness.  Their end result shall be according to their actions! (a statement; "they'll get theirs soon")

[micah7:9]

Lefein, you did not touch on  "The reason I say that is if Jesus can do nothing of Himself Joh 5:19  Jesus therefore responded and said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, The Son is not able to do anything of himself, if he may not see the Father doing anything; for whatever things He may do, these also the Son in like manner doth;
Then how could the adversary possiblly do anything like transform himself?

I tend to accept this one (there are others of like expression)CLV: And no marvel, for Satan samehimself is being transfigured into a messenger of light.

Reading it that way, the adversary is NOT doing it of himself, which leaves that doing to the One who is above all and in all.
 

[Lefein]

I did touch on it.

2: Satan is being transfigured by people's interpretations, like Satanists and Prometheus cults who put him up as "The beautiful one, Lucifer, who gave us freedom from God, or 'gave us fire(wisdom/choice/etc)'".  Part of this may have something to do with his own power by means of vile encouragement of it.

And I touched on the John 5:19 verse when I presented the case of the Autos.

As I said, it is not hard to put on a mask, or to put a false image of someone else up.  I cannot say that God would be "responsible" for people transfiguring rock, and wood, and gold leaf into a deity to worship, in the same way that God would not be "responsible" for people transfiguring themselves, or others into messengers of light, or apostles - when they are not.

Jesus could do nothing of himself, that is true - Christ's will was perfectly aligned with The Father's his will and his Father's are just as one/same as they themselves are one/same.  So on a practical level, he really cannot do anything of his own will, or of a will apart from The Father's, because his will is the Father's will.

But providing that we are not under a divine authoritarian totalitarianistic will - Satan, as well as people can be transfigured by themselves or others in the sense of a mask, or misrepresentation.  We do it in politics all the time when we mud sling our opponents, and raise ourselves up to be the answer to the economic downturn, or social ills of the nation.

I think that in a way, we are both correct.  Because nothing happens that will not eventually, or inevitably be aligned to the Father's will, hence everything is in his ultimate control for the purposes of good, and glory.  Satan could not be transfigured or misrepresented without The Father's allowance of it - for His own divine purposes sooner or later.  But I don't think it would be God himself doing it in this sort of way, unless his divine purpose (which it may very well be) would be to humble Satan in direct contradiction to the pedestal that he has raised, and been raised up upon.

In which case, God's hand has influence.

Atleast, that is my understanding, and rambling of it lol. 

[thinktank]

Lefein, you did not touch on  "The reason I say that is if Jesus can do nothing of Himself Joh 5:19  Jesus therefore responded and said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, The Son is not able to do anything of himself, if he may not see the Father doing anything; for whatever things He may do, these also the Son in like manner doth;
Then how could the adversary possiblly do anything like transform himself?

I tend to accept this one (there are others of like expression)CLV: And no marvel, for Satan samehimself is being transfigured into a messenger of light.

Reading it that way, the adversary is NOT doing it of himself, which leaves that doing to the One who is above all and in all.

He is the father of lies, so he has the ability to lie and deceive people. God cannot lie for he is good.

I believe that christ statement should not be taken as a full blown statement, for he can do things, such as "know ye not that the son of man has power to forgive sins" and he created the worlds.

But similar to how we cannot to anything without our parents teaching us first and birthing us, I believe the father is like that to the son. So the son without the father cannot do anything because the father is the source of all things including the son.
The devil and mankind are outside the will of God therefore abide in darkness.

[Molly]

Oh he can transform himself alright.  The Nachash of Gen 3 is an enchanter and a magician.


"serpent"

H5175
נחשׁ
nâchâsh
naw-khawsh'
From H5172; a snake (from its hiss): - serpent.



H5172
נחשׁ
nâchash
naw-khash'
A primitive root; properly to hiss, that is, whisper a (magic) spell; generally to prognosticate: -  X certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X indeed, diligently observe.


Satan--the adversary--is just his discriptive title.

Did God really say....hissssss...

[micah7:9]

Okay, then you are saying that the adversary/serpent(enchanter,whisper)devil, satan has the "power" within himself to  transform himself into a angel/messenger of light. Should that be true, at what point did the enemy gain the upper hand on God? Because if the enemy can do what he does of himself, there is the chance he could win, simply because Jehovah is not 100% in everything that has, is, and will happen.

Isa 45:5  I am Jehovah, and there is none else, Except Me there is no God, I gird thee, and thou hast not known Me.
Isa 45:6  So that they know from the rising of the sun, And from the west, that there is none besides Me, I am Jehovah, and there is none else, Isa 45:7  Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'
Col 1:16  because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created, Col 1:17  and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
 I suggest in what ever postion or however the enemy transforms into...IT IS GOD WHO IS IN IT.

[Lefein]

Does Yahweh have to be in 100% of every decision or action that occurs in every moment - "totalitarian manipulation; total authority and 100% control over every moment of happenstance in this finite existence" - if the end result, the goal, his purpose of being All in All is still met?

IE: Is God a god who provides zero margin for vibration within the thread of his planning, even if he is omniscient enough to anticipate, and pre-prepare for said vibrations?

Remember, everything that has happened from point A (beginning) to point B (end of all things) in our finite universe is an overwhelmed pixel or spec that will be superimposed and superseded by the deathless infinity of that age when God is indeed all in all, and all wills align to his in harmoniousness.

[thinktank]

God may not be 100% in everything but he still wins, because he knows all things. So before the enemy schemes God already knows his tricks, so it's impossible for the devil to win.

The devil isn't a God he is simply a god. A rebellious god or a rebellious being who has certain amount of rulership over the earth or affairs of men. Afterall what is evil? but simply not doing what God tells us. God has knowledge of all things including the evil of what happens when one does not follow him and thankfully his ways are not allways as narrow as our limited minds believe. So being good, doesn't mean we float on a cloud all day and play instruments all day, as some people may believe, while being evil is full of freedom and choices, this seems to be the idea, but not grounded on reality. For the beer drinking often associated with evil is actually of God and so is bodily pleasures as long as it is done correctly and orderly in the way God intented, to eat with thanksgiving and to drink wine and be merry without excess of drink and food.

Evil is the absence of good.

A wise man once said
All it requires for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing

[micah7:9]

Does Yahweh have to be in 100% of every decision or action that occurs in every moment - "totalitarian manipulation; total authority and 100% control over every moment of happenstance in this finite existence" - if the end result, the goal, his purpose of being All in All is still met?

IE: Is God a god who provides zero margin for vibration within the thread of his planning, even if he is omniscient enough to anticipate, and pre-prepare for said vibrations?

Remember, everything that has happened from point A (beginning) to point B (end of all things) in our finite universe is an overwhelmed pixel or spec that will be superimposed and superseded by the deathless infinity of that age when God is indeed all in all, and all wills align to his in harmoniousness.

Rev 1:8  `I am the Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end, saith the Lord,

[Lefein]

Yes he is, but is he the "rigid middle" also?  Or is he a flexible, long suffering Lord?

[Molly]

The Bible does talk a lot about rebellion against God.

Deuteronomy 9:24
Ye have been rebellious against the LORD from the day that I knew you.

[micah7:9]

1Co 5:5 To deliver such a one as this, unto Satan, for the destruction of the flesh,––that, the spirit, may be saved in the day of the Lord.

So then I came to the summation that to deliver [surrender, yield up, intrust]unto adversary/satan is to let the lusts and desires of the flesh along with the carnal mind, runs its course in that person UNTIL the Father draws (drags) in His time. More or less not having to pray for that brother or sister any longer, it is out of our (those who were praying) hands.
 
Now, in a sense, it is up to the Lord, through the using of the adversary/satan to bring that person around.

[Lefein]

On that Micah I agree, for it is in line with how God often would chastise rebellious Israel with her enemies.