Author Topic: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)  (Read 23310 times)

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Quaesitor

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #100 on: December 16, 2010, 06:24:32 PM »
Oh brother we are not disagreeing that much. :HeartThrob:

What I wanted to say, in maybe too many words, is that whatever translation we have I believe those believing in hell WILL believe in hell.
Well that is my (short) experience anyway that even when faced against obvious arguments they will always go back to tradition.
Even if we bring "truer" translations, they will refuse them.

(if that is not clearer I apologize)

(out-topic)
And I realise that the story of the rich man is true in knowledge also because those who are the richer in religious knowledge are somewhat the more closed ones, it is hard for them to renounce to these riches.


Offline jabcat

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #101 on: December 16, 2010, 09:17:39 PM »
 Sorry :bigGrin:

Offline jabcat

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #102 on: December 18, 2010, 12:42:06 AM »
http://searchwarp.com/swa413703.htm
Quote
First we have to look at a couple of facts. One fact is that we have a transcript of the Book of Matthew in Hebrew, which predates any manuscripts we have in Koinia Greek.
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We also have to look at New Testament passages themselves. We see that when Yeshua stopped Shaul (Saul) He didn't speak to him in Greek but rather Hebrew
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Dr Robert Lindsey, who was my pastor when I was growing up in Israel, translated the book of Mark from Greek into Hebrew. He discovered something rather interesting. He found that when he read the translation in Hebrew rather then from Greek, it made more sense. It wasn't as disjointed as it was in Greek, rather it began to flow and many of the things that were written even had more meaning to the Hebrew ear.
Quote
Even the Church Fathers attest to this over and over again:

Bump OP

Offline jabcat

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #103 on: December 18, 2010, 12:43:22 AM »

If true, then aionios as a translated word from hebrew meaning everlasting or eternal in the absolute sense is even less likely than it is now.

followed up below

Offline jabcat

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #104 on: December 18, 2010, 12:46:01 AM »
Very true Paul.
Then the foundation of ET gets even weaker as it is right now. Same for ED I think.

It would also explain the (little) problem I have with Hades.
Strictly speaking Hades is not the grave. Hades is the god of the underworld
So what's that pagan concept doing in the Bible?
a] Jesus was ridiculing Greek mythology.
b] Jesus agrees the god Hades exists but that Father will defeat the god named Hades.
c] Jesus never spoke the word Hades. He only used the Hebrew sheol.

I fear there are almost no original Hebrew manuscripts left to translate from. I really would like to see a NT translated from that source.

How is this so?  I'd like to think so, because of olam in the Hebrew.  But as I said, Brauscher (said to be a universalist) still translated as "eternal torment" and "everlasting life"...so I honestly right now don't understand this.  I've understood that olam in the Hebrew has even less of a sense of eternal than aion in the Greek does.  Yet at least in the one main Hebrew translation that's been mentioned, the above quoted translation occurs.  If this is the norm, that even in Hebrew we still have such mistranslations, what's been gained so far - except to know more about the originals may still yet lead to better translations?   :dontknow:  I'll look for more evidence and how other Hebrew translations state it.

(Or is this already back off-topic?)
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 12:51:45 AM by jabcat »

Offline jabcat

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #105 on: December 18, 2010, 01:06:28 AM »
If we're back off-topic we can split this off into a new topic.  This is from a book by TM members, David and Zoe Sulem, God's Plan For All.  It talks about the Hebrew translation/meaning of olam in this linked chapter;

http://www.godsplanforall.com/translations

Offline eaglesway

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #106 on: December 19, 2010, 08:04:09 AM »
This author makes a case for Hebrew as the main language of Jesus

http://ccsom.org/languageofjesus/index.htm
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline Cardinal

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #107 on: December 19, 2010, 09:38:09 AM »
 :cloud9: :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #108 on: November 28, 2011, 07:30:39 AM »
Eusebius in his Church History, discussing the canonization of the Scriptures,
quoted Origen as follows: "Among the four gospels, which are the only indisputable
ones in the Church of God under heaven, I have learned by tradition that the first was
written by Matthew, who was once a publican, but afterwards an apostle of Jesus Christ,
and it was prepared for the converts from Judaism, and published in the Hebrew
language" (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, The Church History of Eusebius,
book VI, chap.xxv, 4, page 272).

Eusebius himself tells us, "For Matthew, who had at first preached to the
Hebrews, when he was about to go to other peoples, committed his Gospel to writing in
his native tongue, and thus compensated those whom he was obliged to leave for the loss
of his presence" (ibid., book III, chap. XXIV, 6, page 152).

Eusebius quotes Irenaeus also on this matter of Matthew's gospel. According to
Irenaeus, "Matthew published his Gospel among the Hebrews in their own language,
while Peter and Paul were preaching and founding the church in Rome" (ibid., book V,
chap. VIII, 2, page 222).

Irenaeus, in Against Heresies, made this statement. He declared, as recorded in
Ante-Nicene Fathers, "Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their
own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of
the Church" (book III, chap.I, 1, vol. 1, page 414).

Eusebius also quotes Papias, (circa 60-130 A.D.), as the earliest church father
who related that Matthew wrote his Gospel in Hebrew. He declared: "But concerning
Matthew he [Papias] writes as follows: 'So then Matthew wrote the oracles in the
Hebrew language, and every one interpreted them as he was able" (Nicene and Post-
Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, The Church Hiistory of Eusebius, bk. III, chap.39, 16, page 173).
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #109 on: November 28, 2011, 07:41:29 AM »
The gospel of Matthew, in the Hebrew, has now been translated into English, and
is available from Mercer University Press, in Macon, Georgia (ISBN 0-86554-4700). It
is titled simply, Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, by George Howard. It is a fascinating book
to read, and compare with our modern English versions, translated from the Greek copies
of the Gospel. The similarities are most remarkable, as well as the many insights the
Hebrew gives in many textual areas where the Greek seems mystifying.
Says George Howard, it is clear from the evidence that the Hebrew Matthew
contained in the text of Shem Tov's Evan Bohan predates the 14th century in fact, the
evidence strongly suggests it goes back to the earliest centuries since Christ!
Howard declares that of the nine manuscripts used by Shem Tov Ben Shaprut,
two of the writings are virtually identical, are carefully copied, and show3 minimal
tendency toward scribal error or assimilation to the canonical Greek and Latin.

Shem-Tov's Hebrew Matthew is the earliest complete Hebrew text we now have
of Matthew's gospel. However, Jewish and anti-Christian writings prior to the 14th
century often quote excerpts from Matthew in Hebrew, in a Shem-Tov type form. Says
Howard, "Shem-Tob's comments, scattered throughout the Hebrew text, confirm that this
text is not a creation of the fourteenth century. The comments preserve telltale remarks
implying that Shem-Tob had before him a preexisting Hebrew Matthew" (Hebrew
Gospel of Matthew, page 173).
Although Howard says Shem-Tob's Matthew "does not preserve the original in a
pure form," nevertheless, he adds, "Considerable parts of the original, however, appear to
remain , including its unpolished style, ungrammatical constructions, and Aramaized
forms" (p.178).
The Hebrew gospel of Matthew, he points out, is saturated with literary devices,
such as puns, word connections, and alliteration, which make sense in Hebrew, but are
lost in the Greek form of Matthew. They belong to the very structure of the Hebrew text,
thus showing that the Hebrew is authentic, and was not translated from the Greek texts of
Matthew which were extant.
Interestingly, the Hebrew Matthew text of Shem Tov has "significant agreement"
with the Codex Sinaiticus, which was discovered in the middle of the 19th century, five
centuries after Shem Tov translated his copy from the Hebrew. The Coces Sinaiticus was
discovered in the monastery of St. Catherine in the Sinai Peninsula where it had been
hidden for many centuries, since the medieval period, until its discovery. As Howard
states, therefore, "The roots for their agreement, therefore, must go back to the early
centuries of the Christian era" (page 192).
Also pointing to the early age of the Shem Tov Matthew, it is striking in that it
has many agreements with the Old Syriac gospel of Matthew, which was displaced by the
Pecrapta text around the end of the fifth century, and only two copies have survived.
However, 'The many readings shared by Shem-Tob and the Old Syriac, therefore,
strongly suggest a relationship, whose roots go back to the early centuries of the
Christian era" says Howard (p. 196).
Howard points out that there are also readings in Shem-Tov's Matthew which
agree with one of the other Gospels, but disagree with the Greek version of Matthew.
This fact, he says, suggest that the author of John's gospel, for example, which was
written later,, must have known of a Shem-Tov type of text for Matthew's gospel, and
used it when he wrote his gospel.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline eaglesway

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #110 on: November 28, 2011, 08:13:59 AM »
These two posts are absolutely wonderful. The impact of this "Hebrew" understanding throws light on so many issues, notably among them- that "olam" is the key word in understanding "aion/aionios", and the idea within the writers minds when the words were spoken in the Hebrew language by Hebrew prophets and apostles.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #111 on: November 28, 2011, 08:32:02 AM »
The ISBN number in my previous post seems to be wrong or outdated. ISBN: 0865549893

Book plus a few reviews.
Quote
http://www.amazon.com/HEBREW-GOSPEL-MATTHEW-George-Howard/dp/0865549893/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1322461202&sr=8-1

Rather large preview in Google books. This "Matthew" is more than just an translation.

http://www.mupress.org/productdetails.cfm?PC=433



Little fun fact: The Hebrew book of Matthew has been preserved by the Jews, not the Christians.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Pierac

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #112 on: December 01, 2011, 05:19:59 AM »
I have a copy of this book.

Here is some web based research on it...

 An edition based on nine manuscripts of ST dating from 15th to 17th centuries; namely British Library Add no. 26964 for chapters 1:1-23:22; and JTS Ms. 2426 for 23:23-end. is available, called: The Gospel of Matthew according to a Primitive Hebrew Text by Howard, George. James D. Tabor writes:

Shem-Tov's text is basically BH (Vav Consecutive predominates) with a mixture of MH and later rabbinic vocabulary and idiom. In addition the text reflects considerable revision to make it conform more closely to the standard Greek and Latin Gospel texts. The underlying text, however, reflects its original Hebrew composition, and it is the most unusual text of Matthew extant in that it contains a plethora of readings not found in any other codices of Matthew. It appears to have been preserved by the Jews, independent from the Christian community.

I found it strange that it was edited over time to match the Greek text and not seen as being possibly a true text!

Given that historians in history documented such a possibility...

"Matthew collected the oracles (ta logia) in the Hebrew language, and each interpreted them as best he could." - Papias (Eusebius, H.E. 3.39.16)

"Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome and laying the foundations of the church."  - Irenaeus, Adv. Haer. 3.1.1

Full details here...


http://www.triumphpro.com/moses-seat.pdf


Paul

Offline jabcat

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #113 on: December 01, 2011, 05:41:48 AM »


I found it strange that it was edited over time to match the Greek text and not seen as being possibly a true text!



Paul, are you saying it could at least appear that the Hebrew was adjusted to fit the Greek rather than the other way around?  I.e., suggesting the Greek came first?

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #114 on: December 01, 2011, 07:32:27 AM »
I think not James: "Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome and laying the foundations of the church."  - Irenaeus, Adv. Haer. 3.1.1
Almost all church fathers make such direct claims regarding Matthew. They also menttion other Hebrew NT books but never by name.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #115 on: December 01, 2011, 07:41:05 AM »
BTW the Jews kept Matthew for debunking Christianity. Why only Matthew? Perhaps that's another bit of indirect proof it was written in Hebrew. The Jews had expert knowledge of Hebrew but far less about Greek.
I can only guess why they adjusted it. Perhaps they felt their case was stronger by using corupted pieces of Greek and Latin?
IIRC they even changed the order of their own books because the original order pointed to much to Jesus.


1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #116 on: December 01, 2011, 07:42:21 AM »
I have a copy of this book.
Is it worth the $?
I'm curious about the famous Matthew 25:46
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #117 on: December 01, 2011, 08:44:17 AM »
I have a copy of this book.
Is it worth the $?
I'm curious about the famous Matthew 25:46

Just a quick aside;  Gary and Tony N. address that in this article, but they only seem to deal with the "aion punishment" part of it, not the "eternal life" piece.  Wish they had... guess that's a different thread..

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/EternalPunishmentNotTrueToGreek.html

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #118 on: December 01, 2011, 08:51:50 AM »
If we want to know TonyN's view we just read the CLV  :winkgrin:
Seriously, I wonder why Gary didn't simply add a link to the article "for an article explaining why the punishment in Matthew 25:46 does NOT have to be the same length as the life spoken of in that verse, write to us".
Many won't take the step to ask for it, but would read it when a link is provided. (I'm one of them :winkgrin:)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Pierac

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #119 on: December 02, 2011, 05:30:34 AM »


I found it strange that it was edited over time to match the Greek text and not seen as being possibly a true text!



Paul, are you saying it could at least appear that the Hebrew was adjusted to fit the Greek rather than the other way around?  I.e., suggesting the Greek came first?

Yes, this manuscript was altered over the centuries to fit the Greek in many areas that it did not match.  It is my opinion that Matthew was first written in Hebrew. This does not mean it was a different text, only that the Greek translations that followed were lacking in translation. Thus we get the Moses Seat translation issues. etc... 

Paul

Offline Pierac

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #120 on: December 02, 2011, 05:34:11 AM »
I have a copy of this book.
Is it worth the $?
I'm curious about the famous Matthew 25:46

Is it worth the $?

Only if you can read Hebrew,... other wise you must rely on the English translation of the text. (like me)  So it's nice to read but not a definitive resource.   :2c:

Paul

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #121 on: December 02, 2011, 08:12:04 AM »
Definitive resources don't exist for me. Imo Hebrew needs to be as good as a first language to dig into some issues. A good example of that is when Wave Sheaf/Omer is. Today's Orthodox=Pharisee Jews say Nisan 16th. While (today's) Karaite Jews claim the Sundat after the 15th. To choose side in such debates a deep understanding of the language is needed.
Yesterday evening I was reading an article of a guy that claims Jesus ministry started at 12 AD. I totally disagree with that but still it was worthwhile reading for some of his other points.

Paul, what is their translation of Matthew 25:46? Is there commentary on that verse in that book?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #122 on: December 02, 2011, 04:32:42 PM »
 :cloud9: Isn't it an eye-opener when you start studying the Jewish side of things, what has been missed, overlooked, or altogether hidden?
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #123 on: December 02, 2011, 05:03:14 PM »
Yes, an eye opener, especially since we [Christians] are all [the named] decesndants of Abraham.  We are 'the name.' [hallowed by thy name].



But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."

This means that Abraham's physical descendants are not necessarily children of God. Only the children of the promise are considered to be Abraham's children

For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."

--Rom 9, 6-9
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 05:13:00 PM by Molly »

Offline Pierac

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Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Reply #124 on: December 03, 2011, 05:15:46 AM »
Definitive resources don't exist for me. Imo Hebrew needs to be as good as a first language to dig into some issues. A good example of that is when Wave Sheaf/Omer is. Today's Orthodox=Pharisee Jews say Nisan 16th. While (today's) Karaite Jews claim the Sundat after the 15th. To choose side in such debates a deep understanding of the language is needed.
Yesterday evening I was reading an article of a guy that claims Jesus ministry started at 12 AD. I totally disagree with that but still it was worthwhile reading for some of his other points.

Paul, what is their translation of Matthew 25:46? Is there commentary on that verse in that book?

"Then these will go into eternal abhorrence but the righteous into eternal life."   The Hebrew word they translated into eternal was   ‛ôlâm    עולם.  This is what I meant by not being definitive!


Paul