the cross and the resurrection - how salvation is already finished

[anti_nietzsche]

Today I had been thinking about protestant christianity for a while, as I am a member of a german lutheran church and it was reformation day and so I remembered some of the teachings of my church.

Basically, most non-catholic or non-orthodox christians go by the slogan "salvation is by grace through faith".

This slogan sounds good and it is very catchy, but if you think it through it contains several problems. And we can solve these in a way that makes a UR theology very probable.

I think to tackle this issue right we must go back at what salvation is in the christian faith ... and it is that which Christ provides on the Cross. Salvation is not the outcome of a judgment from God, instead it has been finished already. Why was this finished? This is how we find grace, God was so gracious (so loved the world), that He gave us His Son, that we might (should) be saved through Him. The clearest expression of who Jesus is we find in His sacrifice - this is the attitude of Jesus and of God in general, to sacrifice His rights and His demands and all of His hate and anger to love us as unconditionally as we find it expressed and symbolized in the Cross.

So how does this salvation pan out in my life? That is, I think, where we need faith in the sense of the book of Romans, ie a faith that believes that God raised Jesus from the dead, and a faith that confesses that Jesus is Lord. The salvation is there, it is finished, but we don't understand it right if we don't believe in the resurrection. If that were not present, how could our faith be positive? We would only have the cross. That's why we need to believe in the resurrection.

When salvation is already finished, there cannot be any damnation. Why would God damn someone who had been saved by Christ's Cross? Apostle John writes it plainly - Jesus died for this whole world!

So what is the use of faith now? Faith is not what we give to God that He would save us, as in a barter or in a legal settling. Faith is what we employ to hold that something is true. So basically, faith allows us hold salvation for true, and that is how salvation works through faith, it works by getting us to believe that salvation is true - has been finished on the Cross.

The error is in putting the church between man and his salvation. Jesus installed the church as a group of friends who would live together with the purpose of spreading the truth about the salvation. The church is not the container of the saved. It is however necessary in order for faith to be real - we christians are together in order to encourage and strengthen our faith and our love, and to keep our doctrines pure, so that, for example, there can't come some dictator who tells us that murdering infidels is ok, and we believe that and think this dictator is good! (At least this is the theory, in practice this has occured already a few times in history.)

The danger is in seeing faith as a LEGAL requirment to get saved AT ALL - when in fact it is a psychological requirement to a healthy life with God and a life lived in the truth. Furthermore, we can speak about salvation in two ways ... the salvation from God's anger about sin (which is about eternal life), and the salvation from our current miserable and godless lives into a better and more godly life, the whole package with rescue from sinful habits, letting go of hatred against others, getting to know God personally and living out Christ's example communally in the church. The first kind of salvation needs no faith from us, it is the product of the Cross which God takes care of and attributes to us. And second salvation, that is where we do have to believe because without faith we cannot please God and so we couldn't come to Him, and it's a cognitive impossibility to live with someone for real if you don't believe in Him. Furthermore Paul says we must believe God raised Jesus from the dead, to enjoy this salvation. It's not about the crucifixion then - which ended the old things. It's about how Jesus makes everything new, which leads us to the resurrection and God leading us into a resurrection life.

So that was what I wanted to speak about. Basically salvation is by God, and grace and faith just describe things that help us understand salvation. We should not see faith as a legal requirement for God saving us. Faith is just that we hold it for true that we are saved by God, both in the eternal sense and in the everyday life sense. That is how salvation must logically lead to Universal Reconciliation, because it depends wholly on Christ the cornerstone. Everything else would make salvation depend on men, and that's impossible to work out nor to include really everyone of us, and we are all God's creations and so everyone must get saved to satisfy God's love.

[jabcat]

I agree with most of this, and really like a lot of your thoughts on it.     However, I start to see things a bit different at the following point.

I'll try to sort through it with my personal understanding;

The danger is in seeing faith as a LEGAL requirment to get saved AT ALL - when in fact it is a psychological requirement to a healthy life with God and a life lived in the truth.

I don't see faith as a LEGAL requirement, but still a requirement, to be saved at all.  Over and over the scriptures teach this, that it's "by grace THROUGH FAITH are you saved"  Eph 2:8.  I agree, the LEGAL requirement was paid on the cross.  The Lamb slain, the Perfect Sacrifice.  But IMO, until the Holy Spirit draws each one individually, and God provides His faith into us by which we believe, then we're still lost - and will still need to bow and confess in faith at some point.  Now or later.

Furthermore, we can speak about salvation in two ways ... the salvation from God's anger about sin (which is about eternal life), and the salvation from our current miserable and godless lives into a better and more godly life, the whole package with rescue from sinful habits, letting go of hatred against others, getting to know God personally and living out Christ's example communally in the church. The first kind of salvation needs no faith from us, it is the product of the Cross which God takes care of and attributes to us. And second salvation, that is where we do have to believe because without faith we cannot please God and so we couldn't come to Him, and it's a cognitive impossibility to live with someone for real if you don't believe in Him.

I see this as "very close" [IMO] but with the following line being one on which we differ.   "The first kind of salvation needs no faith from us, it is the product of the Cross which God takes care of and attributes to us."  Actually, though God does give us the faith (He provides us with all good things), still there is again, a faith requirement to place trust in the finished work of the cross.  "by grace we are saved through faith that not of yourselves it is the gift of God", "call on the name of the Lord shall be saved", "believe in your heart, confess with your mouth", etc.  So IMO, salvation isn't just a passive thing we acquire by osmosis.  Jesus paid the legal price on the cross, and according as God decides, everyone comes to Him/is drawn to Him at their appointed time, "each in his own turn/order".  ]

Furthermore Paul says we must believe God raised Jesus from the dead, to enjoy this salvation.

Paul didn't quite say that.  He didn't say enjoy, he said "TO be" saved.  WE ENJOY our salvation through obedience and trust AFTER the new birth and infilling of the Holy Spirit, as we walk in the Spirit and experience the fruit of the Spirit.  I believe it's also called "living in the kingdom, or inheriting the kingdom".  Close, unencumbered relationship - righteousness, peace, joy..

It's not about the crucifixion then - which ended the old things. It's about how Jesus makes everything new, which leads us to the resurrection and God leading us into a resurrection life.    

 Basically salvation is by God, and grace and faith just describe things that help us understand salvation.

Yes, salvation is by God, but grace and faith make the salvation an individual, personal experience - not just a universal ideology.

 
That is how salvation must logically lead to Universal Reconciliation, because it depends wholly on Christ the cornerstone. Everything else would make salvation depend on men, and that's impossible to work out nor to include really everyone of us, and we are all God's creations and so everyone must get saved to satisfy God's love.

Again, I believe it does depend on God, by His grace He gives us the faith to believe and trust in Him as the Savior - rather than continuing to trust in ourselves.  So IMO, what leads to Universal Reconciliation is still by God and about God and His Son.  It's just that some are spiritually reborn (given faith to believe and trust in His work on the cross) in this age, the rest later - the elect/predestined in this age, and those destined to eventually be brought into the faith in the next age.  Paul said things like "not all are of the faith", "each in his own order", and "every knee WILL bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord".


Romans 10:14   But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." .. bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

   How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[c]   17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

[goodreport]

I was thinking about replying with Phil 3:9-11...then read Jabcat's reply... and realized Jabcat already did in his own words...  but decided to share the verses anyway...

Phil 3:9-10 KJV
9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteouseness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10  That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

v 11 (AMP)
that if possible I may attain to the [spiritual and moral] resurrection [that lifts me] out from among the dead [even while in the body].

[jabcat]

I was thinking about replying with Phil 3:9-11...then read Jabcat's reply... and realized Jabcat already did in his own words...  but decided to share the verses anyway...

Phil 3:9-10 KJV
9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteouseness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10  That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

v 11 (AMP)
that if possible I may attain to the [spiritual and moral] resurrection [that lifts me] out from among the dead [even while in the body].

Amen..that we may know Him more

[anti_nietzsche]

I'm not sure if I can explain it right, but I will try to do so.

Faith is a virtue that holds something to be true. It is not a sacrifice of mine, it is not even an action. Faith allows salvation to be real without my contribution to it.

It is like seeing. I see the sun rise and I believe it rises - faith is almost an unpresence of something in me, there is nothing that disturbs the sun rising and bathing me in light.

That is why I would liken faith to an absence of doubt and confusion and struggle and complaint, etc. Faith holds for true and that's it.

But then there is not only a need of faith but also a need for understanding. And in order to cognitively understand something I must also have doubted it, thought about it, questioned it, etc.

Now the object of our faith is Jesus. And our faith means that we hold for true that Jesus rose from the dead - that Jesus is more than we are and that His truth lifts us out of the material realm. Jesus' truth is radiant and explosive, and to believe in it means that it will change us. And in that faith and in that change we experience salvation - we're placed into God's realm where this truth exists, leaving the material and ungodly realm of the human world where this truth does "not" exist.

But, I must add a caveat. What I am speaking about here is how salvation looks to the sentient mind. To the mind that can think and understand. However, we do not always understand. There are those of us humans which cannot understand, for example some of the mentally disabled, or aborted babies, etc. There are those who do not have much intelligence and who can hardly count to ten. They can't comprehend these things either. Or suppose you're an alcoholic who cannot dive into such higher thoughts because he's too occupied with the bottle.

Now the real point I want to make is that these people are not outside of the love of God. And that their salvation has also already been finished. That is why I emphasize Jesus' last words so much: "IT IS FINISHED!". We are all saved already, but salvation looks differently from person to person. We don't contribute anything to the fact that we are saved at all, but if we are sentient we can live in salvation in a more wholesome way. That is where I think you and me coincide, jabcat, when we work out our salvation. An aborted baby cannot work out his salvation. But it is saved nonetheless.

To get people to get saved is not to save them but to get them to see that they are saved and to help them work out this salvation.

The thing is, if we take the faith route to its logical extreme, then a mentally disabled person cannot be saved until later in the afterlife when God has made the person sentient enough to work out their salvation.

That is why I think we must emphasize the salvation that was finished. The problem is, if I make salvation into something that we must "gain", then we invariably get to have unsaved people. But the fact is, since the Cross we're all in Christ's sack. He bought us, He owns us. And nothing can fall from God's hands. What is waiting for us is to live in the love of God, to get to know more and more about Jesus, to understand that the whole cosmos was saved by Christ and waits for His return like a woman in birthpains. Before Christ the world was out of sync with God, after Christ sin was carried out of the world and is not anymore the metaphysically destructive thing that it once was, Jesus blotted it out with His blood.

So really the bottom line has been made already, nobody has to be condemned or killed or destroyed because of sin anymore. Salvation has already begun, so to speak. But then there's this, we're not just all disabled, we are majorly sentient, and it is a need of this sentience to have faith in God because otherwise our sentience has nothing to do and much of our being would be pointless. So what I think is that having faith unlocks the salvation of our sentience, and our sentience is such an integral part of ourselves that one could say we are sentience. But to say this has to be so in all cases of humans means to invalidate the humanity of the insane, of the disabled, of the aborted babies and so on. And that is a point which I think is very important, and which in the end leads us to think of salvation not in terms of "by grace through faith" but instead in terms of "by God's love and our reception of this love". Paul specifically argued that faith without love is worthless. That is why faith must be subordinated to love and so we need to rely on God's love much more than on our own faith, and if we have faith, it must be a loving faith in order to be sensible at all. It is like a strength, an ability, a skill that we have acquired, and it's boundlessly useful and good to have, but it is not the very thing on which salvation hinges, because salvation hinges on God and unlike us, He is reliable. And in understanding this, I see the point of faith and how it should be like, a mechanical part of God's peace in us.

The blood of God fell on this world, and this changed everything. Faith just describes the part how we should relate to this salvation, while our successes in faith don't determine whether we get this salvation or not. We can go out on the balcony and have a cigarette :D.

[ded2daworld]

Quote from Anti-neitzche "So really the bottom line has been made already, nobody has to be condemned or killed or destroyed because of sin anymore. "

  Anti- what are you thinking??? That theives and murderers shouldn't be condemned or killed because of their sin?
Is this one last stab at OKaying the things you want to do but the bible forbids?

[sheila]

I think I understand your reasoning ,anti....it[our salvation] being a free gift[the work of God] and not

  of our own works.But,do not forget..sin in the flesh has been condemned in all men in order to

 fulfill the righteous requirements of God..in the name of justice. Just as the free gift of salvation

 of mankind,by the work of God..in the name of mercy/grace shall also be man's lot.

   where you err,imo, is..instead of the attitude'Lord be merciful to me a sinner" you are arguing

 with Him..it is not sin..thus justifying yourself..instead of God. The expierence of Job is very

 edifying in showing us the folly of this attitude.  Elihu said,'Do you think this is just? You say

  I will be cleared by God..yet..you ask Him..what profit is it to me and what do I gain by not sinning?

   He does not answer when mencry out because of the arrogance of the wicked.....How much less

  then will He listen when you say..you do not see Him,that your case is before Him and you

 must wait for Him and further..that His anger doesn't punish...and that HE DOES NOT TAKE

  THE LEAST NOTICE OF WICKEDNESS..   So Job[anti] opens his mouth with empty talk

without knowledge he multiplies words.

  Bear with me a little longer...and I willshow you there is more to be said in God's behalf...

  I get my knowledge from afar[that homosexualatity is a sin/decreed so of God]]

  I WILL ASCRIBE JUSTICE TO MY MAKER  BE ASSURED THAT MY WORDS ARE NOT FALSE

  ONE PERFECT IN KNOWLEDGE IS WITH YOU.................................But IF MEN ARE BOUND IN CHAINS

   HELD FAST BY CORDS OF AFFLICTION..HE TELLS THEM WHAT THEY HAVE DONE.....

   THAT THEY HAVE SINNED ARROGANTLY.  HE MAKES THEM LISTEN TO CORRECTION

   AND COMMANDS THEM TO REPENT OF THEIR EVIL

   THE GODLESS IN HEART HARBOUR RESENTMENT,EVEN WHEN HE FETTERS THEM

 THEY DO NOT CRY FOR HELP... THEY DIE IN THIER YOUTH AMONG MALE PROSTITUTES OF THE SHRINES

   BUT THOSE WHO  SUFFER HE DELIVERS IN THEIR SUFFERING  HE SPEAKS TO THEM IN THIER

 AFFLICTION..........

  BUT NOW YOU ARE LADEN WITH THE JUDGEMENT DUE THE WICKED.......BEWAREOF TURNING TO EVIL

 WHICH YOU SEEM TO PREFER TO AFFLICTION


   tHEN THE lORD ANSWERED jOB....WHOIS THAT DARKENS MY COUNSEL WITH WORDS WITHOUT

 KNOWLEDGE?[ANTI SAYS HOMOSEXUAL INTERCOARS IS NOT A SIN AS GOD HAS LABELED IT,

 SO ANTI CALLS GOD A LIAR BECAUSE GOD IS WRONG IN SO JUDGING IT..ANTI KNOWS MORE

 HAS MORE KNOWLEDGE THAN GOD AS TO WHAT IS SIN AND WHAT IS NOT..SO INSTEADOF

 DENYING HIMSELF[AFFLICTION] AND STRUGGLING AGAINST IT..HE TURNS UNTO THE WICKED ONE THAT

 CALLS GOD A LIAR TO JUSTIFY HIMSELF].

    WILL THE ONE WHO CONTENDS WITH THE ALMIGHTY CORRECT HIM? LET HIM WHO ACCUSES GOD

 ANSWER HIM!!

  YOU ASKED...'WHOIS THIS THAT OBSCURES COUNSEL WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE? SURELY I SPOKE

 OF THINGS I DID NOTUNDERSTAND  THINGS TOO WONDERFUL FOR ME TO KNOW.

  MY EARS HAD HEARD OF YOU BUT NOW I SEE YOU..THEREFORE I DESPISE MYSELF

  AND REPENT IN DUST ND ASHES

[anti_nietzsche]

Ded, I am speaking of the law of sin and death. If we are in Christ, we are dead to sin, that is sin can't fulfill itself anymore. God crucified the world in Christ so sin works within a "dead" world. Christ shedding His blood on this world was a deeply effective event, it's very mystical. It's metaphysical - about God's immanence in the universe. That is why I speak of a cosmic Gospel - Christ is going to save the entire universe, He is making everything new, a new Heaven and a new Earth. Shedding His blood on the Cross did something to the universe, and us along with it. And when Jesus comes back this process of salvation is finished and God's immanence in the world is fully restored, like it was before the Fall. But the thing is, humans still sin. What would be if every sin was as metaphysically dangerous and harmful like Adam's first sin? Remember that Adam's sin brought about death and all diseases and damages even in the animal world. Because of Christ's sacrifice this does not happen anymore. The world is crucified. Sin is still awful, but it's not metaphysically awful anymore. And as christians we "jump" into this crucifixion and take part in it in our baptism. If we do that, we also become crucified because we are attached to Christ. We are buried. And then we share in resurrection life too, living out of the power of God. Free, saved, restored. But the crucifixion also works legally. The non-christians are saved too. They just don't fully share in all that Christ has to offer because they do not believe and hence don't get this aionious life, the resurrection life. But this has nothing to do with afterlife judgment and afterlife salvation. That part is simply secured through the legal aspects of the Cross. God never intended to punish anyone after death. But God has to work against the metaphysical problem of sin, and He succeeded in that work in Christ and now sin is not so harmful anymore. But remember I am speaking metaphysically, in normal speech sin is of course still harmful. We still oppose murder, lying, stealing, raping, etc. But the metaphysical problem that sin has had on the world, as it was in Adam, that has been taken care of.

Maybe I can give an example. Suppose I would pull out a knife and stab you in the thigh. It would be a sin and there would be a damage, you could die from bleeding, you would feel hurt and afraid. It would be sin. But unlike Adam, this sin has no metaphysical effect that suddenly diseases would spring up and other people on the other side of the globe sin because of my sin, like in a metaphysical chaos theory. Sin cannot spread like this anymore, like an ultradangerous weed. But the normal effect of the sin, the harm that I would be doing, that's still there and it is condemned. But the world itself is safe, it can "bear" sin now without there being these extreme effects. All because of Christ.

[ded2daworld]

So how much sin does God tolerate? At what point does God look at a sin and say to himself, "Aww that wasn't so bad and nobody was REALLY hurt. I'll just kind of wink my eye at that because I know in his heart he means well."
That was a rhetorical question. The answer is all sin is wrong. A true christian still sins almost daily in either thought word or deed but they also do not have a lifestyle of sin or "live in sin" e.g. a male and a female or a male and a male living as husband and wife without a union by God.
I grant you the point that some sins are more harmful than others, but something God saves us from is being a habitual sinner, or, living in sin.
"HOW CAN WE WHO ARE DEAD TO SIN, LIVE ANY LONGER THEREIN?" A rhetorical question by Paul since Paul also says that BY NO MEANS should we continue to sin.

A final thought. I don't know how old you are or how long you've been a christian or if you've even been out in the "real world" of earning a living and paying pills and such but it is a fact:

The closer and deeper your relationship with God, the more you realize how awfully sinful we all are and how truly abhorrent sin is to God. Realizing our own sinfulness aids in our understanding and love of others. Paul constantly tells his readers to remember what great sinners they all were and how wondeful and marvelous this Grace of God is.

[anti_nietzsche]

This isn't really the point, Ded. I am concerned here in this post how salvation was finished on the Cross, specifically from a perspective of God saving the universe from sin, corresponding to how God said to Adam, because of this, sin has entered the world. And now Christ carried it away. The metaphysical problem of sin was solved, not the criminal and moral problem, God can work with this world, it is compatible to Him again through the blood of Jesus that was shed on the Cross. I'm speaking more of the cosmic side of the Gospel - God saving the universe, not from the human and moral side of the Gospel - God saving us from our trespasses and failures and adopting us as God's children. Apostle John said that those who don't hate their brothers, live in the light. Love keeps everything together and any serious sin is about a failure at being loving. It's by breaking the greatest commandments that our human lives get destroyed and that's the reason we can't keep the other commandments. I am not saying that all aspects of the problem of sin were solved, but the main one was. Jesus is the Savior of the world. Salvation is not just for us humans, it's for the entire universe. Can you understand that, Ded? You should be happy.

[ded2daworld]

I'm very happy anti- thank you.
We are saved for a life with our Father and creator.
I'm really not that concerned about the universe being saved, I mean,
I don't see how it affects me in the here and now tho' I'm sure it will matter
when all is made new and reconciled and God is all in all.
I personally believe that the 2nd law of thermodynamics will be done with at that point.
(No more death and decay) and the universe is subject to that Law at this time
(Groaning, earth spin slowing down, universe is literally winding down)
Anyway just like the israelites that wore the same sandals for 40 years in the desert
and they showed no wear and tear. I think it will be a little like that.

[anti_nietzsche]

Well ok, we may just seem to have different emphasis. I really depend on seeing Jesus as the Savior not just of us but also of the whole cosmos, of nature, of everything really. That God does this, or will do this, depending on the perspective, helps me see His goodness. And when God wants to save the universe, then he's gonna save everyone in it, and if he saves everyone of us who are in it, then He'll certainly also save me, I need that for my faith and that's one reason for me being UR. Might sound a bit funny, but it's true for me.

[ded2daworld]

I see your point. I've just always believed humans were far more important than other life forms and the rest of creation
Matt 6:26" Look at the birds: they do not plant seeds, gather a harvest and put it in barns; yet your Father in heaven takes care of them! Aren't you worth much more than birds?"

Since creation won't be changed till there's a new heaven and a new earth, I'm not gonna be concerned about it - besides what could I do?

Anti- none of us are deserving salvation he will save you - he will save me - he will save all humans that have ever lived.
How great a love! His mercy endures forever and his love is incomprehensible.

[anti_nietzsche]

Yeah, and God will say to it, I loved to save you. You're my offspring, and the world is the apple of my eye. God loves all of his creation, not just us humans. Our God is thoroughly good.

[ded2daworld]

Yep, except God actually says that we, the people (e planeesta for trekkies) are the apple of his eye.
Interestingly, The New World Translation (Jehovah Witness) Bible says that we are the center of his cornea!