Author Topic: Suffering?  (Read 11932 times)

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Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #125 on: October 18, 2010, 07:47:06 PM »
Joh 6:44  no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;
DRAW  G1670 helkuō  helkō = to drag (literally or figuratively. From
G138 aihreomai= to take for oneself, that is, to prefer   That should be very comforting.

Remember He is the Gentle Shepard, so I reason and believe that the "dragging," will leave only heal- able brusing, if any.


Sweet to the lips but bitter to the belly.

JohnnyCatholic12

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #126 on: October 18, 2010, 09:15:15 PM »
I give my child a choice between having a cupcake for desert, and a rotten bucket full of cow diarrhea covered in maggots.

I know my child will choose the cupcake, and I watch as he chooses the cupcake, just as I knew he would.

Does that mean my child didn't choose the cupcake on his own accord?  No.

God anticipates, and knows what we will choose, and so Jonah by his own accord chose to flee, but God appointed the fish to ensure that His will was done.

We are the bride of Christ, we are not his whore...God is aligning our will with his through Love, we by our love for him aligning our wills to his because he loved us first, he is not manipulating us and yanking our chains through force - God is not a rapist.

We are the children of God who love our Father, and our Father is making us into spiritual adults, into his image; we like children respond to our love of God, which itself comes from God's love for us, he loves us, so we love him, just as your own sons and daughters love you, because you love them.  They want to be like you because they love you, you help them grow up to be the best they can be because you love them.  You don't force them to be like you!  You don't force them by manipulating them.  That is cruelty, and abuse.
You're twisting words here and making emotional appeals using words like "whore" and "manipulation."  Please quote the Scripture passages that back you up.  I'm not disputing that we a have a will, we do.  However, I am not "free" to make any choice I want.  There's only One Who has a Will that is "Free" and that is God.  Not even Christ could do what He wanted, but He did His Father's Will.  Please tell me how God can "work all things according to the counsel of HIS WILL" if He is not in complete and utter control? 
Please tell me how Jesus knew that Peter would deny Him three times before the cock crowed if Peter was free to do as he wished?  If Peter could have done whatever he wanted Jesus' words would have been "And I say to you Peter, before the cock crows you may, or may not depending on how you feel at that moment choose freely to deny me thrice.  Perhaps however you may only deny me once and then leave, or have a change of heart.  Who am I to tell you what you will do when things are not decided yet because you have not made your free choice yet?"  Even if God wasn't "working all things according to the counsel of HIS WILL" (which He is but let's pretend here that He isn't) Peter did not have an uninhibited will at that moment.  Let's take a look at the definition of F.W. for a moment:
   1.  The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
   2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.-http://www.answers.com/topic/free-will
It's that second definition I want you to pay attention to.  The ability to make free choices that unconstrained by external circumstances.

Tell me is there ever really a choice that is completely "unconstrained by external circumstances?"  No!  Let's look at Peter again, he was under all sorts of pressure from the mob that was gathering.  He feared for his safety and his life.  Do you really think he was free to make any choice he wanted?  No!  His will was not "unconstrained."  That's how the Lord works.  The Lord "works ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS WILL."  The Lord knows what he wants from you and will put you in the exact situation He wants at the exact time He wants to illicit the exact response He wants from you!  My friend the Lord is in control and the Lord is Good!  The Lord does all things for a purpose, and that purpose is the furthering of His Glory and that my friend is amazing! 

Our Father who art in Heaven is not constrained by anything.  Please don't discount the awesome power and might of God!  I thank God for revealing these things to me!  I have been a "Christian" nearly my whole life but I never understood what it meant to be "baptized by the Spirit" until just recently.  We don't worship a small petty god who is held captive by the folly of our fleshly decision, we worship a Large, Powerful, Dangerous, Awesome God whose power is beyond compare.  My brothers and sisters I leave you this Scripture from Paul's epistle to the Romans:
 
Quote
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21  because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that,  but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
-Romans 8:18-30

Offline jabcat

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #127 on: October 18, 2010, 09:46:32 PM »
We're not going to debate free will/soverignty guys.  It's been done plenty if anyone wants to look back on old threads;  and it's caused plenty of problems.  It's also stated clearly that it's a banned topic, especially using the specific terms.  It can be discussed more creatively than that, using the scriptures.  We're heading towards a locked topic if we can't turn the corner.  I know it's hard, it takes some extra thought and effort, but it can be done.  Otherwise, we'll need to move on to another topic. 

Thanks.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #128 on: October 18, 2010, 09:55:50 PM »



I give my child a choice between having a cupcake for desert, and a rotten bucket full of cow diarrhea covered in maggots.






Fascinating.

Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #129 on: October 18, 2010, 10:37:15 PM »
Quote
Fascinating.

Don't be snippy, it was a hypothetical example following the same principle as a rock-bread, fish-serpent, egg-scorpion.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #130 on: October 18, 2010, 10:37:40 PM »
Fascinating.  Hum?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #131 on: October 18, 2010, 10:42:25 PM »
I am referring to your choice of words.
The quote is snipped from your post not mine.

Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #132 on: October 18, 2010, 10:45:31 PM »
And I curtailed any negative connotations you may have been attributing to me by specifically highlighting said post.  If you have not had any negative connotations, I apologise.  If you did, then my statement stands; Don't get snippy [an attitude].

You may have to forgive me ahead of time, as of late I have grown increasingly displeased with this assembly for a multitude of reasons.  Inevitably, most things presented are beginning to take that colour.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #133 on: October 18, 2010, 10:48:56 PM »


Again, they are your words not mine.

But, I will thank you to stop telling me what to do now, lest you be asking Jabcat, again, to delete a string of your posts that you regretted later.

Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #134 on: October 18, 2010, 11:05:50 PM »
I didn't regret them.  I removed them in accordance with my own change of plans.

I'll quote another user to ask of you a question;

Quote
Fascinating.  Hum?

Why do you find it fascinating?  Why did you quote, highlight, a particular point out of its context and not give additional discussion or rebuttal?

I don't trust your motives.  I suspect that you are being malevolent.  If you are not, do explain your position so that I can properly apologise, and properly settle the issue in a better way.

If your motives were meant for a benevolent purpose, a purpose I hope a fellow Christian would have...Then I'm sure you'll have no problem telling me?  Blessed are the peacemakers?

If they were not meant for benevolent purposes...Then I think we have a major, major problem on our hands...
« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 11:13:18 PM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #135 on: October 18, 2010, 11:24:28 PM »
I give my child a choice between having a cupcake for desert, and a rotten bucket full of cow diarrhea covered in maggots.
Maggots are nutritious... Yummy
 
« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 11:27:50 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #136 on: October 18, 2010, 11:25:01 PM »


My fascination is with the prudent choice of words.



Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #137 on: October 18, 2010, 11:35:02 PM »
Then I apologise whole heartedly, and ask for your forgiveness for me being snippy myself.  I am without excuse.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #138 on: October 18, 2010, 11:51:59 PM »
7x7

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #139 on: October 19, 2010, 12:06:57 AM »
7x7
That's a lot of wheels :-)
 
As for 7x7.... trick question?
100, 61, 54, 49, 45, 41, 3A, 37, 34, 31, 29, etc
Pick one. They are all correct.
I think it's bedtime now :P
 
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #140 on: October 19, 2010, 12:17:15 AM »
That's how many times we're given.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #141 on: October 19, 2010, 12:24:12 AM »
Matthew 18:22

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #142 on: October 19, 2010, 12:41:36 AM »
Fascinating.  Hum?  I will let it stand. I feel that anyone who would propose such a choice is fascinating and it caused me to Hum=why would he say that? Hum. Fascinating.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #143 on: October 19, 2010, 12:53:44 AM »

If it is not fascinating; is it at least interesting?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFods1KSWsQ

Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #144 on: October 19, 2010, 01:06:20 AM »
Quote
Fascinating.  Hum?  I will let it stand. I feel that anyone who would propose such a choice is fascinating and it caused me to Hum=why would he say that? Hum. Fascinating.

Deu 30:15  See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Deu 30:19  I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

God gave man a similar choice, and even gave us the right answer to that choice.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline Molly

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #145 on: October 19, 2010, 01:10:41 AM »
Quote
Fascinating.  Hum?  I will let it stand. I feel that anyone who would propose such a choice is fascinating and it caused me to Hum=why would he say that? Hum. Fascinating.

Deu 30:15  See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Deu 30:19  I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

God gave man a similar choice, and even gave us the right answer to that choice.
:thumbsup:

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #146 on: October 19, 2010, 01:11:09 AM »
Fascinating.

Did Adam and Eve eat the cupcake?

Offline jabcat

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #147 on: October 19, 2010, 01:13:30 AM »
Quote
Fascinating.  Hum?  I will let it stand. I feel that anyone who would propose such a choice is fascinating and it caused me to Hum=why would he say that? Hum. Fascinating.

Deu 30:15  See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Deu 30:19  I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

God gave man a similar choice, and even gave us the right answer to that choice.
:thumbsup:

And I'll add, empowers those predestined to believe and choose rightly, to do so.  Those He uses for His purpose.  Those "to whom it isn't given", He uses for His purpose.  What's His purpose and will?  (The ecclesia/remnant now, the rest later), but that all be saved.   :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #148 on: October 19, 2010, 01:18:00 AM »
Quote
Did Adam and Eve eat the cupcake?

It depends, is the glass half empty, or half full?

It would seem to me that they took a nice bite out of Death, which is worse than any bucket of fecal matter.  Then again, I suppose they had to eat something horrendously disgusting and bitter to the stomach before they could realise that the cupcake is much yummier.

They took a big swig of the cow bucket, and never got to eat the cupcake.  But if I may be encouraging...so as not to sound so thoroughly negative about the whole situation...

The fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil, by disobedience they learned the difference...They learned what Evil was.  But they also learned what it was to be Good, and how sweet it is, or will be.  The fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil wasn't just the tree of the knowledge of evil...it was the tree of the knowledge of good.

Adam and Eve knew God, but they never knew how good God is, and until they knew about evil, they'd never be able to understand or know how good God is.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 01:21:48 AM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline Molly

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #149 on: October 19, 2010, 01:25:08 AM »
Quote
Adam and Eve knew God, but they never knew how good God is, and until they knew about evil, they'd never be able to understand or know how good God is.
:thumbsup: