Suffering?

[JohnnyCatholic12]

The point willieH of what Molly (and I) are saying, if I am correct in saying this Molly and if not do correct me; is that God is not a <insert explicative> who doesn't listen to his own children, but only cares about what he wants to do.

And yes, I am indeed taking into account all of God's infinite wisdom, and benevolence, and all those pat-answers that say "God's way is best"...I'm just trying to make a point with what limited ability English can provide to convey the sentiment.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses,  "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."[f] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh,  "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."[g] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

-Romans 9:14-21.

After many days of prayerful research and Scripture reading I believe God has revealed to me that (not to debate a forbidden subject) that "F.W." does not exist.  That willieH is correct.  What God wants is all that matters because "Thy Will be done."  I believe Paul is very clear that God is the potter, we are the clay, God came "make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor."

[JohnnyCatholic12]

So it all boils down to two things, when it comes to prayer.

Its one sided conversation, God will do what he wants irregardless of us:  Absolutely useless to even pray?

Its a requited, two sided conversation, God takes our wishes into account with his will:  His will becomes imperfect?

Why is it considered so impossible for;

Its a requited, two sided conversation, God takes our wishes into account with his will:  His will remains perfect, our free-will petitions already being placed in his will to provide upon our request.

"Pre-emptive willful giving in preparation for the moment of its requisition."

C.S Lewis once made a very logical statement regarding the omnipresence/omniscience of God, and his relationship with Time/Destiny.  I will have to find the quote, but from what I recall and if I may summarise, God exists in a state of ever-present "now", that every point in time is "now", the "present" to him.  He is not bound by any form of time, as time (a force of continuity) is to his perspective, a divine perspective of the manipulatable Present.

If it's a one sided conversation, which I believe it is, I don't see how prayer is useless.  Look at the prayer Jesus gave us, "Thy kingdom come, Thy Will BE done on earth, as it is in Heaven."  That is how Jesus taught us to pray, that God's (whose? God's) Will be done.  The key to getting your prayers answered is to pray according to God's Will.

[Lefein]

So in essence...We are but manipulated puppets on divine strings?

[thinktank]

Perhaps you lot want to become punch and judy, but as for me and my house we shall worship the lord in spirit and in truth as joint or co heirs with Jesus Christ.

Peace

[Lefein]

Who are punch and judy?

I do like the joint heirs part.  Amen.

Edit: OH! Punch and Judy are puppets...cool lol.

[Beloved Servant]

We are conformed into the image of His Son.
Here is a prayer: Father, glorify your Son, O Lord that I may be like Him in all ways and free creation from the blinding ignorance of it's vain-glorious self.

[Lefein]

God molds us, changes us, and makes us into his image - this is true.

But it is all for a purpose, and it is not so he can amuse his whim and have toy butlers...

I am being made into a priest, and a king, fit to rule and live; Live Genuinely, in Truth, Life, and Love, in fullest Salvation.

Salvation = Freedom, and love doesn't manipulate, it draws one to by their own will align with yours, or draws you to by your own choice align your will to another's.

A helper-mate relationship works that way, and we are the bride of Christ, not his whore!

The worst kind of bondage, is to have no will of your own...

[Beloved Servant]

I call it FREEDOM.

[thinktank]

God molds us, changes us, and makes us into his image - this is true.

But it is all for a purpose, and it is not so he can amuse his whim and have toy butlers...

I am being made into a priest, and a king, fit to rule and live; Live Genuinely, in Truth, Life, and Love, in fullest Salvation.

Salvation = Freedom, and love doesn't manipulate, it draws one to by their own will align with yours, or draws you to by your own choice align your will to another's.

A helper-mate relationship works that way, and we are the bride of Christ, not his whore!

The worst kind of bondage, is to have no will of your own...

Amen, yes it is easy to be deceived as a christian, I struggled with the issue from time to time, but it comes down to the fact that God can easily make slaves out of stones if he wishes, but instead he gives us the glorious opportunity to be willing participants of his kingdom as joint heirs in his kingdom, where true freedom abides, in his will. For God is love.

[JohnnyCatholic12]

Perhaps you lot want to become punch and judy, but as for me and my house we shall worship the lord in spirit and in truth as joint or co heirs with Jesus Christ.

Peace

"For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.  So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but OF GOD that shows mercy.  For the Scripture says unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show My powers in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore has He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens."-Romans 9:15-18

"And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh and he hearkened not unto them, as the Lord had spoken unto Moses"-Exodus 9:12

"For God has concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon ALL. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God? How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor? Or who has first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen" (Rom. 11:32-36).

    "And as a vesture shall Thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but THOU ART THE SAME…" (Heb. 1:12).

    "For I am the Lord, I CHANGE NOT…" (Mal. 3:6).

    "Jesus Christ the SAME yesterday, and today, and for ever" (Heb. 13:8).

"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINED according to the PURPOSE OF HIM Who WORKS ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:11).

"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him Who has subjected the same in hope."-Rom 8:20

"Then said Pilate unto Him, Speak you not unto me? Know you not that I have to crucify you, and have power to realase you? Jesus answered, You could have NO POWER AT ALL against Me, except it were GIVEN YOU from above…" (John 19:10-11).

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (faith) not of yourselves it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:8-10).

"For it is God which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

(All emphasis and bold-ing of words and statements were added.)

I could go on and on with a hundred more scriptures but I hope you get the point I am trying to get across.  If you learn nothing else, please learn that A) "For by grace ye are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves but it is the GIFT of GOD." B) "For it is GOD which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure."  God works all things to counsel of His Will and "Thy Will BE DONE."
The arguments I see put forth from the other side of the aisle are emotional appeals and the desires of man to control his own fate.  My arguments come from Scripture, which is inspired by God.  So I leave you with one more passage: "Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar."-Romans 3:4

[micah7:9]

I am pursuaded. But, I find from alot of what I've read,  the post(s) are walking into a subject that is not allowed on this forum.

Peace and Love Through Jesus.

[JohnnyCatholic12]

I call it FREEDOM.

Ah but there is freedom found in the Scriptures:

"If the Son therefore shall MAKE you free, ye shall be free indeed."-John 6:36
What are we made free from?

"Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God" (Rom. 8:21).

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death" (Rom. 8:2).

It's amazing how men want to be kings and gods of their own destinies and not be "a puppet on a divine string."  We really really want to be in charge but alas:

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?-Rom. 9:19-21

As Scripture shows we are mere clay, God is the Potter and can do with the clay as He wishes.  God is in control and that is glorious news. 

As far as man wanting to kick God out from behind the steering wheel it reminds me of this passage:

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.-II Thess. 2:3-4

Two questions arise, Who is the man of sin?  And where is the Temple of God? 

The first question: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God-Rom. 3:23  "But the scripture has concluded ALL UNDER SIN…" (Gal. 3:22).

Now where is the "Temple of God?"

"Know ye not that YE ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD, and that the Spirit of God DWELLS IN YOU?" (I Cor. 3:16).

    "If any man defile the TEMPLE OF GOD, him shall God destroy; for the THE TEMPLE OF GOD is holy, which temple YE ARE" (I Cor. 3:17).

    "What? Know ye not that YOUR BODY IS THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? (I Cor. 6:19).

    "And what agreement has the TEMPLE OF GOD with idols? For YE ARE [6] THE TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD: as God has said, I will dwell IN them, and walk IN them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people" (II Cor. 6:16).

So I believe that when you claim to be in control of your own destiny you "sit in the temple of God and claim to be God."  Just something to think about.

[Beloved Servant]

Wonderful.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=X43XXpItGk0

[Cardinal]

  DELICATE tip-toeing around the subject is generally not strictly moderated as we realize that is difficult to exclude principles in scripture and talk about scripture, BUT: all out food fights, complete with name-calling, and flaming and baiting comments, WILL BE. Proceed. Blessings....

[Beloved Servant]

I AM FREE

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWv-UOHzaIc

[Quaesitor]

I've read it said before but I read the story of Jonah this morning and I think it is the perfect example of what we're discussing here. Because even when Jonah thought that he was resisting God, he was in fact, doing His will.
We see that Jonah's three days and three night into the fish was an image of things to come.
Did Jonah thought all along that he was free?
Maybe.
But that doesn't change the fact that God had already declared his resistance.
There are too much verses saying that God is the only Creator and that He has created EVERYTHING WHICH EXIST, which includes us, our thoughts, our ways and our decisions.
To declare otherwise is to give reason to those who insist God has 2 wills and that one of these is dependant upon us. I hate that thinking and fight it daily with ETers. If God said that He wills all men to be saved, He will do it. To God all Powers, Authority, Wisdom and Strenght, who can resist His will?

[Lefein]

I give my child a choice between having a cupcake for desert, and a rotten bucket full of cow diarrhea covered in maggots.

I know my child will choose the cupcake, and I watch as he chooses the cupcake, just as I knew he would.

Does that mean my child didn't choose the cupcake on his own accord?  No.

God anticipates, and knows what we will choose, and so Jonah by his own accord chose to flee, but God appointed the fish to ensure that His will was done.

We are the bride of Christ, we are not his whore...God is aligning our will with his through Love, we by our love for him aligning our wills to his because he loved us first, he is not manipulating us and yanking our chains through force - God is not a rapist.

We are the children of God who love our Father, and our Father is making us into spiritual adults, into his image; we like children respond to our love of God, which itself comes from God's love for us, he loves us, so we love him, just as your own sons and daughters love you, because you love them.  They want to be like you because they love you, you help them grow up to be the best they can be because you love them.  You don't force them to be like you!  You don't force them by manipulating them.  That is cruelty, and abuse.

[Beloved Servant]

I Will   DRAG   All men unto me.

[Beloved Servant]

The Gentle Shepherd.

[Lefein]

There is a difference between dragging a drowning man onto the shore, and dragging a man into your house to be your slave.

There is a difference between dragging a woman out of oncoming traffic, and dragging her into your bed to be your "wife".

There is a difference between dragging your child away from a wood chipper, and dragging your child by the hair through a store when he's perfectly content to walk behind you.

Christ takes us from pasture to pasture, like sheep who follow his voice.  But it is we who follow.  If we fall, then he will drag us up from danger.  If a stray sheep is in a ditch, he will drag it up.  He will break the leg of a lamb that runs away, to carry it on his shoulders.  But the rest of the sheep, and the lamb when its leg heals will follow on their own accord, and freely graze in the pastures where he guides.

God isn't monochrome idiot who has only one method of rulership - Force.

[micah7:9]

I've read it said before but I read the story of Jonah this morning and I think it is the perfect example of what we're discussing here. Because even when Jonah thought that he was resisting God, he was in fact, doing His will.
We see that Jonah's three days and three night into the fish was an image of things to come.
Did Jonah thought all along that he was free?
Maybe.
But that doesn't change the fact that God had already declared his resistance.
There are too much verses saying that God is the only Creator and that He has created EVERYTHING WHICH EXIST, which includes us, our thoughts, our ways and our decisions.
To declare otherwise is to give reason to those who insist God has 2 wills and that one of these is dependant upon us. I hate that thinking and fight it daily with ETers. If God said that He wills all men to be saved, He will do it. To God all Powers, Authority, Wisdom and Strenght, who can resist His will?

Amen

[micah7:9]

I Will   DRAG   All men unto me.

Amen

[micah7:9]

The Gentle Shepherd.

Amen and Amen

[micah7:9]

Joh 6:44  no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;
DRAW  G1670 helkuō  helkō = to drag (literally or figuratively. From
G138 aihreomai= to take for oneself, that is, to prefer   That should be very comforting.

Remember He is the Gentle Shepard, so I reason and believe that the "dragging," will leave only heal- able brusing, if any.

[Beloved Servant]

Then he said to me, "This is what the LORD says to Zerubbabel:        It is not by force nor by strength, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of Heaven's Armies.