willieH: Hi Tank...
It is commendable that you are trying to figure out the mysterious and complex ways of God, to me some of these ideas you present are new to me, but I do find them to be a slight twist on what I believe and seemingly contradict what the scriptures teach.
I observe your view ALMOST, in the very same way Tank! (that your views contradict the Scriptures)
Where this statement is not aligned, is that your
views are not NEW to me... I have been hearing them for many, many, MANY years...
Might I add, that I think it is commendable that you are searching concerning the mysteries of God, as well!
But here is a difficult question I have for your theology. If God as you claim is the declarer of all things and you take that scripture to mean that he is behind all things, including the very actions of men, even designating two different groups those to honour and those to dishonour
Let me stop you for a quick moment... The "vessels" of dishonor and honor, are of the SAME LUMP, Tank... YOU are that "lump", I am that "lump"... everyone
is that "lump"...
then I ask the question, how is it that you say in the above quote that mans will must subject himself to Gods will?. For now you are admitting by your own words that man does indeed have a will that is outside the will of YAH
Man's "will" is encased in the CONCLUSION made by "YAH"
(I prefer YHVH
), ...That each of these "wills" be UNBELIEVING... without FAITH... and imprisoned in this condition until "YAH"
drags the given individual and his/her CONTRARY "will" ...to the WORD
which reveals the FATHER (YHVH
-- within the time frame of the DECLARATION of ALL THINGS), which is FREED from the PRISON (and bondage) of UNBELIEF
(in which SIN is encased -- Rom 14:23
) -- by the WORD
-- John 8:32
ALL of this is predetermined by the ALMIGHTY -- Isaiah 46:10
-- end to beginning by DECLARATION, ...then -- beginning to end by MANIFESTATION of that DECLARATION...
which begs the question as to how can man indeed have a willand subject it to Gods will, if mans will is already DECLARED under the directive and command of the almighty?
You actually make me giggle, bro...
(not laughing at you, just laughing --
Like the pharisees of old tried to "trip up CHRIST
", so do you attempt same, ...with me...
Do you think I have not considered your questions before? I have been discussing things like this for the last 7-8 years on Tentmaker... You are not the first to "ask" these things...
The answer is simple to explain... will you listen to it?
Who is putting ALL THINGS under the feet of CHRIST
, Tank? Are the "things" doing this (placing themselves below the feet of CHRIST?
Or indeed, do the Scriptures say that it is YHVH
which is "DOING" it Tank? (putting ALL THINGS under Him) -- 1 Cor 15:28
GOD has decided that we have an ADVERSE "will" which is DISOBEDIENT, ...and to us (erroneously), ...this "will" appears as FREE and independent from Him... which is (no offense), surface foolishness...
How can anything be SEPARATED from the SOURCE which sustains it? That GOD has decided we "choose" from options that HE
has provided, effectually removes His "separation" from the choices available... You either "choose" one choice HE
has made available (and designated good) or you "choose" from another choice HE
has made available (and designated evil)...
Along with that... As SCRIPTURE plainly notes -- Isaiah 46:10
has already outlined (prior to any "choosings" done), ...by HIS
DECLARATION of them, ...all "choices" made by men.
If therefore men cannot "choose" contrary to what YHVH
has already designated (which if they did, would render YHVH's
designation of them FALSE), ...then it is just IGNORANCE that observes the "choice made" as originating from the "chooser" and not the provider of the "choices" and designation OF
It seems to be with this theology you propose that there is no difference between a man in Christ's will and the unrighteous man, who according to you are both under Gods directive will, one pertaining to dishonour and one to honour.
Keyword in this statement is ..."seems
"... the SCRIPTURES SAY
1. There IS no difference
... BOTH are the product of YHVH
-- Rom 9:21
-- YHVH makes
BOTH, the vessels of honor and dishonor ...of the SAME LUMP...
2. ALL are unrighteous
, Tank, ...NONE
are GOOD, Tank! -- Rom 3:10-12 -- Psalm 14:1-3
3. ALL are both -- the vessel of DISHONOR in their UNBELIEF and DISOBEDIENCE, as well the vessel of HONOR which is MOLDED and given FAITH to BELIEVE by the AUTHORING of CHRIST
) -- Heb 12:2
-- and are changed from that UNBELIEF and DISHONOR by GOD and His WORD
, ...not of SELF.
You make the very same OVER-ESTIMATION of yourself (alluding to yourself as a "righteous" man) that the Pharisees of Old, made of themselves as they foolishly compared THEMSELVES to others, in several situations (John 8:3-11 -- Luke 18:10-14
-- to name a few)
No man is "righteous"... for ALL are UNGODLY and due to that UNGODLINESS, CHRIST
died for ALL -- Rom 5:6-8