Author Topic: Suffering?  (Read 14338 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #75 on: October 16, 2010, 06:44:04 AM »
I have control over nothing.

Isn't it more like this?

Phil 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.


 ... for without me ye can do nothing. [John 15:5]


Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #76 on: October 16, 2010, 06:46:59 AM »
Precisely not I but Christ.
I die daily.

Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #77 on: October 16, 2010, 06:54:42 AM »
A blue bird was given charge over the nest of an Eagle, the Eagle said to him;

"See my eggs?  See my nest?  They shall hatch, and my nest shall be torn by their youth and play. You my servant, keep my chicks, feed them, and maintain my nest while I fly and do what is mine to do.  You are my steward."

--

"I shall be a good steward."

And so the Eagle flew off, and left his nest to do what was his to do.

The chicks hatched, three of them were born and needed to eat, and so they said to the blue bird;

"Feed us!"

And so the blue bird brought them worms from the ground, and offered them from his gizzard.  The chicks refused the meal, and would not eat what the blue bird offered, and so they starved, and one chick died, leaving two.

The two chicks then began to romp about the nest, tearing it, and breaking it apart.  The blue bird continued to put straw on the nest, but the two chicks broke down what he built up, and so the nest was in worse shape than it was at the first.  At last the nest became so dilapidated that it collapsed on one side, and one of the chicks fell from the cliff in its ruin, leaving one chick behind.

The blue bird continued to maintain what was left of the nest, and offered food to the chick, and so it did eat.  This last chick then stood in the midst of the nest, and awaited the return of its father, and so the eagle did indeed return to check the progress of his steward.

The Eagle landed, and was full of wroth, seeing his nest destroyed, and only one of his children survived;

"What have you done?"

--

"Why master, I have done as you said, I have fed your chicks, and maintained your nest."

--

"Then why is my nest broken, and why does only one of my precious eaglets stand before me alive?  One at the bottom of the abyss, and the other rotting on the side of my home!  Why did you not command them to eat?  Why did you not command them to behave while you built and beautified?"

--

"You commanded me to feed them, and keep your nest maintained.  But I have no control over the eaglets, or the nest, I am but a lowly blue bird."

____ ____ ____

Neglect of power is as costly as the abuse of power.  Just as the neglect of the silver talent, buried in the ground is as costly as stealing it from your master.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 07:03:10 AM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #78 on: October 16, 2010, 05:59:46 PM »
 :cloud9: We have been given dominion but that dominion is thru Him as we come into agreement with His will and His desires and are to speak what we hear, do what we 'see' Him do, ect. Dead men don't control anything, and we are to reckon ourselves dead.

As we decrease and He increases, dominion also increases in reality, not just in principle. He gives us 'tastes' of it, as in tastes of the Kingdom (which is IN Christ) to come.

I've shared this before, but once I was sitting reading the Word, it was a sunny day, no sign of a storm yet, and the Lord told me 3 times to go outside and look up before I finally figured it wasn't my mind and went.  :mblush:

When I did, I was shocked to see a funnel cloud coming from the north of me, heading straight for my home. I said, "LORD! Did you bring me out here to see what was going to destroy me or what???"

He said calmly, "Take authority over it."

I stumbled around a bit mentally first; I mean, what exactly does one say to a tornado coming straight for you?  :mshock: :dontknow:

I finally got it together enough to command that it would touch down in an open field and not hurt anything. The next day it was in the paper that a tornado touched down in a field south of my house, and then went back up, not hurting anything, PTL.

We ARE the sons of God, in the making, taking baby steps, into maturity. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #79 on: October 16, 2010, 08:21:43 PM »
Isa 29:16  Ye turn things upside down! Shall the potter be esteemed as clay; that the thing made should say of him that made it, He made me not; or the thing formed say of him that formed it, He hath no understanding?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline lomarah

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #80 on: October 16, 2010, 08:28:36 PM »
:cloud9: We have been given dominion but that dominion is thru Him as we come into agreement with His will and His desires and are to speak what we hear, do what we 'see' Him do, ect. Dead men don't control anything, and we are to reckon ourselves dead.

As we decrease and He increases, dominion also increases in reality, not just in principle. He gives us 'tastes' of it, as in tastes of the Kingdom (which is IN Christ) to come.

I've shared this before, but once I was sitting reading the Word, it was a sunny day, no sign of a storm yet, and the Lord told me 3 times to go outside and look up before I finally figured it wasn't my mind and went.  :mblush:

When I did, I was shocked to see a funnel cloud coming from the north of me, heading straight for my home. I said, "LORD! Did you bring me out here to see what was going to destroy me or what???"

He said calmly, "Take authority over it."

I stumbled around a bit mentally first; I mean, what exactly does one say to a tornado coming straight for you?  :mshock: :dontknow:

I finally got it together enough to command that it would touch down in an open field and not hurt anything. The next day it was in the paper that a tornado touched down in a field south of my house, and then went back up, not hurting anything, PTL.

We ARE the sons of God, in the making, taking baby steps, into maturity. Blessings....

My goodness you have the coolest stories.
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #81 on: October 17, 2010, 01:54:46 AM »
A blue bird was given charge over the nest of an Eagle, the Eagle said to him;

"See my eggs?  See my nest?  They shall hatch, and my nest shall be torn by their youth and play. You my servant, keep my chicks, feed them, and maintain my nest while I fly and do what is mine to do.  You are my steward."

--

"I shall be a good steward."

And so the Eagle flew off, and left his nest to do what was his to do.

The chicks hatched, three of them were born and needed to eat, and so they said to the blue bird;

"Feed us!"

And so the blue bird brought them worms from the ground, and offered them from his gizzard.  The chicks refused the meal, and would not eat what the blue bird offered, and so they starved, and one chick died, leaving two.

The two chicks then began to romp about the nest, tearing it, and breaking it apart.  The blue bird continued to put straw on the nest, but the two chicks broke down what he built up, and so the nest was in worse shape than it was at the first.  At last the nest became so dilapidated that it collapsed on one side, and one of the chicks fell from the cliff in its ruin, leaving one chick behind.

The blue bird continued to maintain what was left of the nest, and offered food to the chick, and so it did eat.  This last chick then stood in the midst of the nest, and awaited the return of its father, and so the eagle did indeed return to check the progress of his steward.

The Eagle landed, and was full of wroth, seeing his nest destroyed, and only one of his children survived;

"What have you done?"

--

"Why master, I have done as you said, I have fed your chicks, and maintained your nest."

--

"Then why is my nest broken, and why does only one of my precious eaglets stand before me alive?  One at the bottom of the abyss, and the other rotting on the side of my home!  Why did you not command them to eat?  Why did you not command them to behave while you built and beautified?"

--

"You commanded me to feed them, and keep your nest maintained.  But I have no control over the eaglets, or the nest, I am but a lowly blue bird."

____ ____ ____

Neglect of power is as costly as the abuse of power.  Just as the neglect of the silver talent, buried in the ground is as costly as stealing it from your master.

I enjoyed this story but I'm not quite sure of the message. In christs message it is slightly different, in that the man who hid his talent did nothing with his talent or authority and when the master returned he was angry at the slothfull servant who did nothing.

But in your story the blue bird was working hard, I was even cheering him on feeding those bratty chick eagles  :laughing7:
perhaps the blue bird needed to give them a good peck around the ear! but would the mother eagle have allowed that  :dontknow:

 

Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #82 on: October 17, 2010, 02:01:16 AM »
Spare the rod, spoil the child  :laughing7:

The message is interpretable I suppose.  But there are three important things to consider;

--The Eagle warned the blue bird, and commanded him.

"They shall hatch and my nest shall be torn by their youth and play"

"You my servant, keep my chicks, feed them, and maintain my nest."

--The Eagle made the blue bird his Steward; the caretaker of his estate.

--The Eagle when he came back did not say the blue bird did not do the job, but commented on how he did it "bare minimum", to which the blue bird replied with a false sense of humility - using his lowly state as a blue bird as an excuse.

God has warned us of the dangers, and trials.

God has commanded us to feed his sheep, and to be good stewards of what he has given us.  He has made us priests, and kings.

Many will say, Lord Lord, have we not done this and that in your name?  Be gone I never knew you.  Not everyone who says Lord Lord knows me. (in paraphrase anyway)





« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 02:07:44 AM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline willieH

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #83 on: October 17, 2010, 03:53:05 AM »
willieH: Hi Tank...  :cloud9:

It is commendable that you are trying to figure out the mysterious and complex ways of God, to me some of these ideas you present are new to me, but I do find them to be a slight twist on what I believe and seemingly contradict what the scriptures teach.

I observe your view ALMOST, in the very same way Tank! (that your views contradict the Scriptures)

Where this statement is not aligned, is that your views are not NEW to me... I have been hearing them for many, many, MANY years...  :happygrin:

Might I add, that I think it is commendable that you are searching concerning the mysteries of God, as well!

But here is a difficult question I have for your theology. If God as you claim is the declarer of all things and you take that scripture to mean that he is behind all things, including the very actions of men, even designating two different groups those to honour and those to dishonour

Let me stop you for a quick moment... The "vessels" of dishonor and honor, are of the SAME LUMP, Tank... YOU are that "lump", I am that "lump"... everyone is that "lump"...

Quote
then I ask the question, how is it that you say in the above quote that mans will must subject himself to Gods will?. For now you are admitting by your own words that man does indeed have a will that is outside the will of YAH

Man's "will" is encased in the CONCLUSION made by "YAH" (I prefer YHVH), ...That each of these "wills" be UNBELIEVING... without FAITH... and imprisoned in this condition until "YAH" drags the given individual and his/her CONTRARY "will" ...to the WORD which reveals the FATHER (YHVH -- within the time frame of the DECLARATION of ALL THINGS), which is FREED from the PRISON (and bondage) of UNBELIEF (in which SIN is encased -- Rom 14:23) --  by the WORD -- John 8:32

ALL of this is predetermined by the ALMIGHTY -- Isaiah 46:10 -- end to beginning by DECLARATION, ...then -- beginning to end by MANIFESTATION of that DECLARATION...

which begs the question as to how can man indeed have a willand subject it to Gods will, if mans will is already DECLARED under the directive and command of the almighty?

You actually  make me giggle, bro...  :laugh: (not laughing at you, just laughing --  :wink1:)

Like the pharisees of old tried to "trip up CHRIST", so do you attempt same, ...with me...

Do you think I have not considered your questions before?  I have been discussing things like this for the last 7-8 years on Tentmaker... You are not the first to "ask" these things...  :laughing7:

The answer is simple to explain... will you listen to it?  :dontknow:

Who is putting ALL THINGS under the feet of CHRIST, Tank?  Are the "things" doing this (placing themselves below the feet of CHRIST?  Or indeed, do the Scriptures say that it is YHVH which is "DOING" it Tank? (putting ALL THINGS under Him) -- 1 Cor 15:28

GOD has decided that we have an ADVERSE "will" which is DISOBEDIENT, ...and to us (erroneously), ...this "will" appears as FREE and independent from Him... which is (no offense), surface foolishness...

How can anything be SEPARATED from the SOURCE which sustains it?  That GOD has decided we "choose" from options that HE has provided, effectually removes His "separation" from the choices available... You either "choose" one choice HE has made available (and designated good) or you "choose" from another choice HE has made available (and designated evil)...

Along with that... As SCRIPTURE plainly notes -- Isaiah 46:10 -- HE has already outlined (prior to any "choosings" done), ...by HIS DECLARATION of them, ...all "choices" made by men. 

If therefore men cannot "choose" contrary to what YHVH has already designated (which if they did, would render YHVH's designation of them FALSE), ...then it is just IGNORANCE that observes the "choice made" as originating from the "chooser" and not the provider of the "choices" and designation OF them...   :nod:

It seems to be with this theology you propose that there is no difference between a man in Christ's will and the unrighteous man, who according to you are both under Gods directive will, one pertaining to dishonour and one to honour.

Keyword in this statement is ..."seems"...  the SCRIPTURES SAY

1.  There IS no difference... BOTH are the product of YHVH -- Rom 9:21 -- YHVH makes BOTH, the vessels of honor and dishonor ...of the SAME LUMP...  :dontknow:

2.  ALL are unrighteous, Tank, ...NONE are GOOD, Tank!  -- Rom 3:10-12 -- Psalm 14:1-3  :dontknow:

3.  ALL are both -- the vessel of DISHONOR in their UNBELIEF and DISOBEDIENCE, as well the vessel of HONOR which is MOLDED and given FAITH to BELIEVE by the AUTHORING of CHRIST (the WORD) -- Heb 12:2 -- and are changed from that UNBELIEF and DISHONOR by GOD and His WORD, ...not of SELF.  :dontknow:

You make the very same OVER-ESTIMATION of yourself (alluding to yourself as a "righteous" man) that the Pharisees of Old, made of themselves as they foolishly compared THEMSELVES to others, in several situations (John 8:3-11 -- Luke 18:10-14 -- to name a few)

No man is "righteous"... for ALL are UNGODLY and due to that UNGODLINESS, CHRIST died for ALL -- Rom 5:6-8

:Peace: Tank...

...willieH  :cloud9:
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 05:36:01 AM by jabcat »

Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #84 on: October 17, 2010, 04:31:43 AM »
Post removed, I am biding my time.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 06:11:20 AM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #85 on: October 17, 2010, 05:14:07 AM »

Removed by request of original poster.



Lefein,   :hithere:
It has been clearly stated that the topic of free will is restricted yet you continue to taunt another member on such a sensitive subject and then insist that he formats his response to your liking   :icon_farao:  with only a yes or no.    :hammerhead:


Perhaps some enjoy Willie's colorful use of the board.    :first:


Making blanket assumptions is, often, selfish and shortsighted.  :Sparkletooth:
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 06:17:18 AM by jabcat »

Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #86 on: October 17, 2010, 05:28:18 AM »
Post removed.  I've decided on a different course of action.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 06:11:55 AM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #87 on: October 17, 2010, 05:38:13 AM »
Bump.

Brothers and Sisters,
I have a question for you all.  My wife and I were having a discussion about suffering in the world this morning.  You see my wife is a Deist, and doesn't believe in Jesus Christ because she said too much suffering goes on in the world, and where is God in all of this?  I tried to explain that suffering in the world is our fault,  but she said God should have never created us in the first place since he knew we would cause all of this suffering.
Also, she asked why some people get saved for tragedy and others don't.  I didn't really know what to say just because I'm not totally sure God does intervene to save people in auto accidents, plane crashes, etc.  She pointed to passage in Matthew where Jesus calms the storm while they were out on the boat as proof that God does intervene in tragedy. 

I was hoping I could get some more solid answers from the collective wisdom of you all.  I appreciate any responses.

This thread's being locked for a few minutes.  We will get back on track, including moving away from the personal stuff.

In looking at the OP again, I remember it actually does introduce the "free will" topic.  I'm removing that reference, maybe that will help us refocus. 

Thanks.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 05:43:27 AM by jabcat »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #88 on: October 17, 2010, 05:44:37 AM »
P.S.  There's been a little personal venting allowed.  If need be, plz go to PM with any further personal stuff.  Thanks.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #89 on: October 17, 2010, 06:05:16 AM »
Unlocked.  This topic has had various iterations, and it might not be the first time it won't be able to be discussed within the board guidelines.  We'll see.  Please proceed with awareness of all issues and expectations involved.  If unsure, plz review the Guidelines/Announcements section.

Thanks.


Suffering....

Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #90 on: October 17, 2010, 06:10:20 AM »
Jabcat, if you would be so kind, might you remove my list of questions, and the quoted list in Beloved Servant's post?

I've decided to bide my time...And I'd rather have no reminder of it for anyone to use.  I would be most thankful, and appreciative.

___

Many, many thanks Jabcat.  May you be blessed with a seven fold abundance of prosperity, health, and wisdom.  In the name of our Glorious Christ, Amen.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 06:18:53 AM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #91 on: October 17, 2010, 06:13:48 AM »


Jabcat, it's just another apparition and just like the rest will be gone soon!

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #92 on: October 17, 2010, 06:19:44 AM »
Jabcat, if you would be so kind, might you remove my list of questions, and the quoted list in Beloved Servant's post?

I've decided to bide my time...And I'd rather have no reminder of it for anyone to use.  I would be most thankful, and appreciative.

That would make my post look awkward.
Hmmm...what to do...what to do...

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #93 on: October 17, 2010, 07:10:10 AM »



Yea, Jabcat, you deleted another one, I know ya did.
But I read it first before you got to it!
And you're right.    :declare:

Offline jabcat

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #94 on: October 17, 2010, 07:11:47 AM »
Sometimes you figure you're sayin' too much...  :mblush:

I've deleted a bunch of my own posts...and we're probably the better for it.  LOL

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #95 on: October 17, 2010, 07:18:00 AM »
It depends who your talking to.
Some people are just asking for it, and so, they finally get it!

Jesus spoke in no uncertain terms when calling them vipers.
Perhaps, though he was not just speaking to the men but also to the....





wait for it...











wait for it...











The bickering spirit.      :declare:

Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #96 on: October 17, 2010, 07:27:41 AM »
You reap what you sow, and you fall with whom you stand...
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 07:31:32 AM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline Molly

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #97 on: October 17, 2010, 08:09:45 AM »
"This, indeed, is probably on the Enemy's motives for creating a dangerous world -- a world in which moral issues really come to the point. He sees as well as you do that courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point, which means, at the point of highest reality. A chastity or honesty which yields to danger will be chaste or honest or merciful only on conditions. Pilate was merciful until it became risky."

--C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters



"Do what you will, there is going to be some benevolence, as well as some malice, in your patient's soul. The great thing is to direct the malice to his immediate neighbours whom he meets every day and to thrust his benevolence out to the remote circumference, to people he does not know. The malice thus becomes wholly real and the benevolence largely imaginary."

--C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters


Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #98 on: October 17, 2010, 04:00:40 PM »
You reap what you sow, and you fall with whom you stand...

I liked your first response better, the one before this edit.

Offline Molly

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #99 on: October 17, 2010, 06:20:15 PM »
By God himself suffering on the cross, he is showing us--


1)suffering is a part of this evil age

2)he has overcome it

3)so will we through him

4)it is only for a little while, but then...

Ephesians 2:7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.