Author Topic: Suffering?  (Read 14204 times)

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Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #50 on: October 15, 2010, 11:24:33 PM »
 :eyebrow:

okee dokee then...
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Quaesitor

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2010, 12:36:11 AM »
God's ways are already perfect, changing them to give us that sentiment of importance, sentiment that we gain when we understand what it means to be God's image-bearer,would alter God's ways, making them non-perfect because we believe they can be better with this or with that.

So you're left with a God who answer to our prayers but which ways are imperfect or a God who does everything according to His OWN will which is perfect and unchanging.

It's all about understanding that Jesus NEVER did or said anything according to his will but everything according to the Father's will.

When Jesus said not to worry about anything, it's that kind of faith it takes. Because it is when I was revealed this that I stopped worrying about anything.


Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2010, 12:56:13 AM »
So it all boils down to two things, when it comes to prayer.

Its one sided conversation, God will do what he wants irregardless of us:  Absolutely useless to even pray?

Its a requited, two sided conversation, God takes our wishes into account with his will:  His will becomes imperfect?

Why is it considered so impossible for;

Its a requited, two sided conversation, God takes our wishes into account with his will:  His will remains perfect, our free-will petitions already being placed in his will to provide upon our request.

"Pre-emptive willful giving in preparation for the moment of its requisition."

C.S Lewis once made a very logical statement regarding the omnipresence/omniscience of God, and his relationship with Time/Destiny.  I will have to find the quote, but from what I recall and if I may summarise, God exists in a state of ever-present "now", that every point in time is "now", the "present" to him.  He is not bound by any form of time, as time (a force of continuity) is to his perspective, a divine perspective of the manipulatable Present.

« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 01:55:49 AM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Quaesitor

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2010, 01:55:48 AM »
So it all boils down to two things, when it comes to prayer.

Its one sided conversation, God will do what he wants irregardless of us:  Absolutely useless to even pray?

Its a requited, two sided conversation, God takes our wishes into account with his will:  His will becomes imperfect?

Why is it considered so impossible for;

Its a requited, two sided conversation, God takes our wishes into account with his will:  His will remains perfect, our free-will petitions already being placed in his will to provide upon our request.

"Pre-emptive willful giving in preparation for the moment of its requisition."

C.S Lewis once made a very logical statement regarding the omnipresence of God, and his relationship with Time/Destiny.  I will have to find the quote, but from what I recall and if I may summarise, God exists in a state of ever-present "now", that every point in time is "now", the "present" to him.  He is not bound by any form of time, as time (a force of continuity) is to his perspective, a divine perspective of the manipulatable Present.

Lefein, imagine you know every truth and you know it is truth. One man comes to you and says something which come in opposition with the truth you possess. You will enter in a discussion where you'll try to explain why what the other man is saying can't be true. You'll listen to his side and you'll say your side but anything he can say won't change your perception because you have the truth and you listen by love and to understand where the other person is in hope that you can change his perspective.

I'd say that is an imperfect image of what happens in prayer when we listen to what God is saying rather than talk all the time. You can ask things to God but you have to listen and hear the answers. If it's a no than your next step is asking God why your will is not His will.
That's why prayer changes us.

Quote
Its a requited, two sided conversation, God takes our wishes into account with his will:  His will becomes imperfect?

Why is it considered so impossible for

If His will is perfect, it also doesn't change because a change means imperfection, what is perfect never changes.
Isn't it James who said that we can ask anything according to His will?
Didn't Jesus said that anything asked in His name will be given?
I know an awfull lot of people who always finish their prayers with "in Jesus' name amen" and they do not receive everything they ask for.
Do you?
I know I prayed for a lot of things in my life and the answers were probably 90% "no" because they were selfish prayers or asked in the flesh not understanding that "sufferings lead to perfection".
But everytime I ask the Lord to humble me or everytime I ask to be revealed more of the Word, He answers and quickly.
But again, that's what I believe in.

Offline willieH

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #54 on: October 16, 2010, 01:58:18 AM »
willieH:  :happygrin:

FIRST --- It all comes down to the BODY recognizing and knowing the HEAD is in charge of ALL THINGS... Maker of ALL THINGS which are MADE -- Rom 9:21 -- John 1:3 -- Col 1:16 -- irregardless of our perception of them as "good" or "evil" --- which in turn is an acknowledgement of the GLORY of YHVH as being ...ALL ...MIGHTY...

There is NO POWER, except HIS -- Rom 13:1 -- so no one possessing "power" of any kind, can of truth claim, that the SOURCE of the power utilized, is OF self... for ALL POWER has ONE SOURCE. 

If power is designated in any given being, then it is designated by the WILL of YHVH which WORKS ALL THINGS that they have this "power", and furthermore it has been given to them, for the PURPOSES of YHVH to be accomplished in ALL... Who therefore is due, ALL CREDIT for the OUTCOME and PROCESS of ALL things... once they (all things) are manifest and reach COMPLETION...     

God took the EVIL acts of Pharaoh and made His name and POWER known all over the world -- Rom 9:17

We are not to esteem ourselves, as larger than we should...

Before YHVH God, of OURSELVES, ...we are NOTHING... but being emergent of His infinite LOVE, ...IN Him, BY Him, FROM Him, and FOR Him... we are His EVERYTHING.  :HeartThrob:

In the desire of Him and HIS WILL, should our hearts be completely occupied (not worrying over our own petty desires)... and in PRAYER (which is about all doings of LIFE, not just the words of a given "conversation"), should we be EVER about seeking Him, and Who and What He is... thereby abandoning OURSELVES...

Unless and until, one abandons completely ALL the riches of oneself including ones own "will", one is not entered into the Kingdom -- Matt 19:23 -- or worthy to be His DISCIPLE -- Luke 14:26

CHRIST noted that we leave behind our "baggage" and come an follow Him, who IS about DOING and SPEAKING, ...NOTHING OF HIMSELF.

Paul noted that he "lived", but didn't live!! ... Gal 2:20 ...because, he had LEFT "himself" behind.

SECOND --- If we are praying that the WILL of the Father be done in one breath, and in the next, expect our own desires be fufilled ...without knowing that those desires might NOT be HIS WILL for us, ...such prayer finds itself is self-contradictory. JESUS noted in His prayer... His desire that the cup pass, BUT ONLY, ... if it be the WILL of the Father...  It was NOT, ...and accordingly, ...the "cup" did not pass...

THIRD --- "free will" is not allowed as a topic of discussion on this forum and so it should not be mentioned at all in support of an opinion, ...for those who oppose this Unbiblical notion are not allowed to speak against it...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #55 on: October 16, 2010, 01:58:32 AM »
I don't think I'm being understood, in what I am trying to convey.  I suspect that there is a hindrance in either my abilities in Language, or else Language itself.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2010, 02:55:41 AM »
willieH:  :happygrin:

FIRST --- It all comes down to the BODY recognizing and knowing the HEAD is in charge of ALL THINGS... Maker of ALL THINGS which are MADE -- Rom 9:21 -- John 1:3 -- Col 1:16 -- irregardless of our perception of them as "good" or "evil" --- which in turn is an acknowledgement of the GLORY of YHVH as being ...ALL ...MIGHTY...

There is NO POWER, except HIS -- Rom 13:1 -- so no one possessing "power" of any kind, can of truth claim, that the SOURCE of the power utilized, is OF self... for ALL POWER has ONE SOURCE. 

If power is designated in any given being, then it is designated by the WILL of YHVH which WORKS ALL THINGS that they have this "power", and furthermore it has been given to them, for the PURPOSES of YHVH to be accomplished in ALL... Who therefore is due, ALL CREDIT for the OUTCOME and PROCESS of ALL things... once they (all things) are manifest and reach COMPLETION...     

God took the EVIL acts of Pharaoh and made His name and POWER known all over the world -- Rom 9:17

We are not to esteem ourselves, as larger than we should...

Before YHVH God, of OURSELVES, ...we are NOTHING... but being emergent of His infinite LOVE, ...IN Him, BY Him, FROM Him, and FOR Him... we are His EVERYTHING.  :HeartThrob:

In the desire of Him and HIS WILL, should our hearts be completely occupied (not worrying over our own petty desires)... and in PRAYER (which is about all doings of LIFE, not just the words of a given "conversation"), should we be EVER about seeking Him, and Who and What He is... thereby abandoning OURSELVES...

Unless and until, one abandons completely ALL the riches of oneself including ones own "will", one is not entered into the Kingdom -- Matt 19:23 -- or worthy to be His DISCIPLE -- Luke 14:26

CHRIST noted that we leave behind our "baggage" and come an follow Him, who IS about DOING and SPEAKING, ...NOTHING OF HIMSELF.

Paul noted that he "lived", but didn't live!! ... Gal 2:20 ...because, he had LEFT "himself" behind.

SECOND --- If we are praying that the WILL of the Father be done in one breath, and in the next, expect our own desires be fufilled ...without knowing that those desires might NOT be HIS WILL for us, ...such prayer finds itself is self-contradictory. JESUS noted in His prayer... His desire that the cup pass, BUT ONLY, ... if it be the WILL of the Father...  It was NOT, ...and accordingly, ...the "cup" did not pass...

THIRD --- "free will" is not allowed as a topic of discussion on this forum and so it should not be mentioned at all in support of an opinion, ...for those who oppose this Unbiblical notion are not allowed to speak against it...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :cloud9:


It is commendable that you are trying to figure out the mysterious and complex ways of God, to me some of these ideas you present are new to me, but I do find them to be a slight twist on what I believe and seemingly contradict what the scriptures teach.

But here is a difficult question I have for your theology. If God as you claim is the declarer of all things and you take that scripture to mean that he is behind all things, including the very actions of men, even designating two different groups those to honour and those to dishonour, then I ask the question, how is it that you say in the above quote that mans will must subject himself to Gods will?. For now you are admitting by your own words that man does indeed have a will that is outside the will of YAH, which begs the question as to how can man indeed have a willand subject it to Gods will, if mans will is already DECLARED under the directive and command of the almighty? It seems to be with this theology you propose that there is no difference between a man in Christ's will and the unrighteous man, who according to you are both under Gods directive will, one pertaining to dishonour and one to honour.


Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #57 on: October 16, 2010, 03:06:12 AM »
Amen Thinktank!
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline Molly

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #58 on: October 16, 2010, 03:29:22 AM »
God gave man dominion over the earth and everything on it.

"dominion"

dominance or power through legal authority

If I have legal authority over something or someone, then I am allowed to make decisions within the context of that authority.

But, I would also expect to be accountable for my decisions.  There's the rub.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #59 on: October 16, 2010, 04:51:15 AM »


There is a legalistic way of looking at the Scriptures as they attest to that.

But David and Paul give us pause:

Psalm 24:1
The earth [is] the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

1 Corinthians 10:26
For the earth [is] the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.

There's another rub.

Offline Molly

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #60 on: October 16, 2010, 05:09:30 AM »
It is because the earth is the Lord's that he can legitimately give man dominion over it.

That makes Satan a usurper.

'one who wrongfully or illegally seizes and holds the place of another'
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 05:15:44 AM by Molly »

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #61 on: October 16, 2010, 05:22:56 AM »


I, for one, do not have dominion over my earth or the planet.
I can not speak for others but observation points otherwise.

Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #62 on: October 16, 2010, 05:31:01 AM »
Here are the facts...

Creation is the Lord's.
Man has dominion over the earth, and creatures.

A sort of hierarchy exists in Reality.  Just look at our court system for example, or local vs. state vs. federal  government...A kid's bedroom, over the parent's house.  Etc, etc.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #63 on: October 16, 2010, 05:36:17 AM »

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #64 on: October 16, 2010, 05:45:39 AM »



He has given dominion to us but we have yet to take it.

"Then Caleb quieted the people before Moses, and said' "Let us go up at once and take possession, for we are well able to overcome it." (Num.13:30).

"And all the congregation said to stone them with stones." (Num.14:10).


Offline thinktank

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #65 on: October 16, 2010, 05:57:55 AM »


I, for one, do not have dominion over my earth or the planet.
I can not speak for others but observation points otherwise.

What do you think of the following scriptures

Psalm 115:16   
The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.


Job 9:24   
The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?

God has given the earth to mankind to rule for 6 days or 6 thousand years until the 7th day of sabbath rest when God takes away the sceptre from man and gives it to Christ and his overcomers. In Daniels book he destroys the worldly beast empires.
To me mankind has far more authority then they care to realize. On a daily basis people curse with their tongue and bring evil upon the world, only Gods mercy and the prayers of his saints prevents this world from utter destruction.

For death and life are in the power of the tongue


Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #66 on: October 16, 2010, 05:59:58 AM »
Look above.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #67 on: October 16, 2010, 06:13:33 AM »
Look above.

You meant I as in I in christ?

Because technically you even though you are not of the world we are still in the world and so we as Gods people are in authority now, because we as well as being children of the highest are also qualified to be the children of men spoken of in the psalms scripture I gave. So we do have dominion now in the sense that we can impact the world being children of men, until the time comes when he whos right it is shall receive it in fullness.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2010, 06:15:37 AM »
No, I meant at my post.

Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2010, 06:15:43 AM »
Whether we are dominant in the typical sense or not, we should at the very least remember God's greatest requirement as far as governance; We are to be righteous stewards.

A steward has control over the estate of his, or her master.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #70 on: October 16, 2010, 06:18:00 AM »
I have control over nothing.

Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #71 on: October 16, 2010, 06:19:01 AM »
Then you are not a steward.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #72 on: October 16, 2010, 06:32:16 AM »

A steward controls nothing.

Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #73 on: October 16, 2010, 06:36:40 AM »
Steward

1.
a person who manages another's property or financial affairs; one who administers anything as the agent of another or others.
2.
a person who has charge of the household of another, buying or obtaining food, directing the servants, etc.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/steward

Control, is not "Tyranny" I shall remind the world.

Christians are stewards, rulers, priests and kings even now we are kings, and rulers.

« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 06:40:24 AM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #74 on: October 16, 2010, 06:38:46 AM »



In Luke 16:1; the steward performs a duty.