Author Topic: Suffering?  (Read 13490 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2010, 06:53:08 PM »




Joshua 10:

14; And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.

God changes not; prayer changes us.

That was the day God caused the sun to stand still in the sky to allow Joshua more daylight for his battle.  So, I might not be able to get the sun to stand still with prayer, but I'm told the mountain will move for a believer.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2010, 06:58:26 PM »
Amen, the mountain will move if we repent (TURN)


One of the main themes of every prophet; "Repent!  The enemy is at your gate!"

To which Israel either submitted, and did rightly, repenting to the Lord saying "We have sinned!" (that is a form of prayer), and so the Lord's wrath left them.

I've been reading Jonah, and doing a small study (which, though it is a forbidden subject I think it has alot to say about Free-will/God's Plan, and omniscience) and in it Jonah prayed to God from the belly of the fish and was released after repenting.



Revelation 1:12
And I turn about to look for the voice which spoke with me. And, turning about, I perceived seven golden lampstands,

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2010, 07:02:44 PM »




If you cannot get  the sun to stand still then how would one reconcile:
Matthew 21:22
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

He gives the desire of the heart, that is, what we desire is His desire.
For we do not even know WHAT to pray for.



Offline Molly

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2010, 07:11:34 PM »
We see on the prayer boards that people are asking for specific things.

Jesus asks those he will cure, What do you want?  He makes them voice their requests.

This is what builds our faith.

Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2010, 07:58:35 PM »
Prayer is conversation.

I feel a sense of grief in my heart when prayer is thought of as more or less, talking to the air that doesn't affect God or his plans.

It is not to say, that God changes, or that he isn't omniscient.  I only mean that God is my Father, and I'd feel quite unloved if my father never bent his ear to my voice even in the little things that concern my life.

Me; "Lord, I know you have a purpose in me being sick...but could you heal me a little quicker than two weeks?  I have a very important party I'd like to go to in a few days..."
God; "Shut up, I do what I want, my plans say two weeks, and that's that!"
Me; "Yes Father..."

Perhaps an exaggerated example, but it gets my point across, I hope.

Even if his plans involved something better after the two weeks, it would have been a very hurtful conversation, if indeed it could be called a conversation at all.  Conversations are productive...it hurts when Heaven feels like an iron dome, it'd be even worse if God's ears where for what would be tantamount to all intents and purposes, deaf to my intercessions.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 08:02:45 PM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2010, 08:18:25 PM »
Prayer is conversation.

I feel a sense of grief in my heart when prayer is thought of as more or less, talking to the air that doesn't affect God or his plans.
.....
Me; "Lord, I know you have a purpose in me being sick...but could you heal me a little quicker than two weeks?  I have a very important party I'd like to go to in a few days..."
God; "Shut up, I do what I want, my plans say two weeks, and that's that!"
Me; "Yes Father..."
IMO that's exactly how it is.
God does or does not change His plans. Even if He changes His plan once in every 9999999999999 prayers He can no longer claim He never changes (plans)
Ofcourse it's possible that your party-prayer was already part of the plan.
But even in that case the plan didn't change.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2010, 08:31:09 PM »


Moses prayed for forgiveness and God said ask this of Me no more.

Intercession, again, bridges the Will of God's to ours.

I'll bow, perhaps this once, to exaggerated examples so prevalent lately and repeat a worldly prayer:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-4AheUl6ls
...at least she waited till 3.

Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2010, 08:35:12 PM »
My example was not out of reality, it was hypothetical - just to clarify.

As it stands though, the idea that my Father doesn't listen to me, or see my thoughts as important enough to "acknowledge" (even in all of his wisdom, he is first and foremost The Father) is a stab in the chest...to be blunt about it.

Is our relationship with God, of which communication is the keystone to every relationship; one sided, and unrequited?

Where does the line between "the wiser course" and "my way or nothing" occur?

Wives I am sure, would feel quite hurt if their opinion was...essentially worthless to their husband.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 08:41:27 PM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2010, 08:40:52 PM »


In Christ, We are All of One Spirit.

Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2010, 08:44:07 PM »
And another thought comes to mind.

I already know, and have heard, and agree; that prayer changes us, not God.

But if it is God's will that we change...and God will have his way that begs the question.

"Why pray?  We'll change anyway."

Prayer I've already said is a conversation, and someone who loves God will talk to him regardless...But I still feel that if the conversation is essentially talking to air, for God heeds us not, and our thoughts are tantamount to worthless in his ears...

Where is that God who is Love?  If prayer is so powerless to touch his heart.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2010, 09:01:25 PM »


It is not His heart that needs to be touched.
When we walk in the Lambs Book according to His Script, our life becomes a living prayer in constant contact with the Divine Will of God.

Offline Molly

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2010, 09:04:40 PM »
My example was not out of reality, it was hypothetical - just to clarify.

As it stands though, the idea that my Father doesn't listen to me, or see my thoughts as important enough to "acknowledge" (even in all of his wisdom, he is first and foremost The Father) is a stab in the chest...to be blunt about it.

Is our relationship with God, of which communication is the keystone to every relationship; one sided, and unrequited?

Where does the line between "the wiser course" and "my way or nothing" occur?

Wives I am sure, would feel quite hurt if their opinion was...essentially worthless to their husband.
23And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

 24Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

 25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

 26And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
--Gen 18


..and he was called a friend of God.[James 2]

Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2010, 09:09:20 PM »
A very good find Molly.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2010, 11:06:09 PM »
Never let any man take away the power of prayer from you, friend or foe, cast their advice to the dust, for it is of Satan, after all what are you if you cannot communicate to your God?

Offline willieH

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2010, 11:37:20 PM »
Daniel and the Lion's den.

Daniel's friends in the furnace.

Several Legions of angels that could be called down by Christ to defend him.

Mary and Joseph warned by an angel to flee - a warning is a form of protection, especially if heeded.

Rebuking the devourer = Protection.

Israel protected multiple times by God in their wars.

God killing the Egyptian soldiers in the sea of reeds/red sea.

God confusing armies into killing each other.

Peter being rescued by an angel while in prison...

Paul was rescued several times if I recall correctly...

The list goes on of God intervening to protect one group, against another, as well as individuals.

Not ONE of these events was UNDECLARED by the WORD of YHVH ...BEFORE... it was manifest in this world -- Isaiah 46:10 

The "things not yet DONE" was... EVERYTHING... therefore, all things which are (eventually) "DONE" are manifest to the DETAIL, according to the DECLARATION of the WORD of YHVH, ...which PRECEEDED each "thing, which ended up being, ...done"  :laughing7:

Lefein, I don't want to rush to Willie's defence but I think he meant that when God does intervene, it was already destined to be so as God has declared the beginning from the end. So when God intervenes, it is His purpose and when He doesn't, it is also His purpose. Millions of people praying for days wouldn't change that because God does everything according to His will.
Willie, correct me if I'm mistaken and Lefein sorry if that's not what you meant.

That is EXACTLY what I meant, Q!

GOD does not need to be partial to any given one of His "WORDS" and not another... EACH of His "WORDS" are equally important TO HIM...

In illustration ----> We are ALL just little individual "writings" of HIS WORD, for everything that IS,  ...emerges FROM His WORD -- John 1:3 -- and said "WORD" ----> contains the DIVINE KNOWLEDGE of GOOD >>>and<<< EVIL...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :cloud9:
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 11:46:19 PM by willieH »

Offline willieH

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2010, 11:57:36 PM »
My example was not out of reality, it was hypothetical - just to clarify.

As it stands though, the idea that my Father doesn't listen to me, or see my thoughts as important enough to "acknowledge" (even in all of his wisdom, he is first and foremost The Father) is a stab in the chest...to be blunt about it.

Is our relationship with God, of which communication is the keystone to every relationship; one sided, and unrequited?

Where does the line between "the wiser course" and "my way or nothing" occur?

Wives I am sure, would feel quite hurt if their opinion was...essentially worthless to their husband.
23And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

 24Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

 25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

 26And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
--Gen 18


..and he was called a friend of God.[James 2]

Well...  :scratchhead:

The question noted, you percieve as "of Abraham", ...WAS and IS (and ALWAYS WILL BE) ...IN, and OF, the WORD of God which is UNCHANGING and ETERNAL...

So these "words" within the "question" asked, were NOT "OF ABRAHAM" even though Abraham was the vessel speaking them...

They ARE ...OF... the WORD of GOD...

The WORD had already DECLARED (as a "thing yet to be DONE") ...that the man, "Abraham" would ask this question... so, he DID...  :dontknow:

 :JCThink:  btw... There was NOT (within the DECLARATION of YHVH), ..."50 righteous" in the city...  :dontknow:  

So the city was NOT "SPARED"...  :mnah:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline Molly

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2010, 12:06:55 AM »
Quote
There was NOT (within the DECLARATION of YHVH), ..."50 righteous" in the city...   

So the city was NOT "SPARED"... 

Yes, I believe Abraham negotiated God down to sparing the city for 10 righteous men--which couldn't be found at the time--hence my quest to find 10 righteous men today.

Nevermind. :happygrin:

Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2010, 12:26:09 AM »
The point willieH of what Molly (and I) are saying, if I am correct in saying this Molly and if not do correct me; is that God is not a <insert explicative> who doesn't listen to his own children, but only cares about what he wants to do.

And yes, I am indeed taking into account all of God's infinite wisdom, and benevolence, and all those pat-answers that say "God's way is best"...I'm just trying to make a point with what limited ability English can provide to convey the sentiment.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline willieH

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2010, 12:52:44 AM »
The point willieH of what Molly (and I) are saying, if I am correct in saying this Molly and if not do correct me; is that God is not a <insert explicative> who doesn't listen to his own children, but only cares about what he wants to do.

And yes, I am indeed taking into account all of God's infinite wisdom, and benevolence, and all those pat-answers that say "God's way is best"...I'm just trying to make a point with what limited ability English can provide to convey the sentiment.

What GOD wants is all that matters, Lefein.

Concerning ourselves with what "we want", is based in selfishness...  CHRIST was never concerned about His desires FIRST, rather, about FULFILLING the will of the FATHER.

"Listening" is the enjoining of oneself to the River [water] of LIFE...

If we are "listening" to Him (which is LIFE), then automatically, He is "listening" to us (BY giving LIFE to our requests)...  for the prayer of FAITH (which is listening first, then asking/speaking) ...is that which avails spiritual profit -- James 5:16

A "righteous man" is one that is and has been "LISTENING" to YHVH... for it is already DECLARED that the "righteous" listen, as his/her way is FOREORDAINED (predetermined) -- Eph 2:11

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline Lefein

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2010, 01:02:24 AM »
WillieH; You missed my whole point, again.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline willieH

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2010, 01:15:39 AM »
WillieH; You missed my whole point, again.

 :JCThink:  ...seems we both have that problem with one another...   :declare:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2010, 04:31:10 AM »
 :cloud9: ALL men seek after their own [things] and not the things which be of Christ......which is why we know not what we should pray, and which is why the HG does the works. My  :2c: Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2010, 06:22:51 AM »
:cloud9: ALL men seek after their own [things] and not the things which be of Christ......which is why we know not what we should pray, and which is why the HG does the works. My  :2c: Blessings....
all men seek after their own things.

But, I don't see the problem with that--simply because it is all about building trust and relationship.  A two year old is going to more selfish than a 30 year old, and a 30 year old more self centered than a 60 year old.  This is not to say we will stay a spiritual 2 year old forever.  But, we start out at the bottom rung of the ladder and as everyone who exhorts a 2 year old to share knows, it's one step at a time.

Meanwhile, the foundation is being built--he is faithful and true to his word.


10For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

 11If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

 12Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

 13If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?


--Luke 11


Offline lomarah

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2010, 03:18:54 PM »
Hey JohnnyC  :smile:
I agree with you that it is largely our "free will" that causes suffering in the world (while under the control and sovereignty of God) and I believe the reason for this suffering is because we have to know what it is like to live without the rule of God in our lives so that we will all desire to live under the rule of God and eventually submit to His good and holy will which brings life. When we all see and realize how our own selfish living brings death and destruction to ourselves and others then eventually all will come to Him and gratefully and willingly submit to Him in all things, and so all will be made righteous and suffering will be no more. I also believe that the suffering we have to go through in this world (and possibly in the next, for those who have not chosen to follow Him yet) will seem like nothing when compared to eternity and the joy and peace we will have. I believe the suffering we experience here on earth is like that of a woman in labour: when we go through childbirth the pain is very intense and seems to last forever. We may even believe we will not survive and feel like we are dying. But when it is all said and done it was a very short period of time and the pain is actually very forgettable and we would do it all again for the joyous life it has brought about. Anyhow, that's my  :2c:
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline willieH

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Re: Suffering?
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2010, 08:39:35 PM »
willieH: ...greetings, Tank!  :happygrin:

Never let any man take away the power of prayer from you, friend or foe, cast their advice to the dust

No one is trying to "take away" anything from anyone! ...just noting that which IS... according to the statements made in SCRIPTURE...

The Scripture notes that GOD WORKS ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11 -- and that GOD noted END to BEGINNING the things NOT YET DONE -- Isaiah 46:10 --  what does that leave out, Tank?  Is not "prayer" that you intend to engage. ....a "thing" not yet DONE:dontknow:  Or a "work" (doing, or matter)?

for it is of Satan, after all what are you if you cannot communicate to your God?

It is not up to YOU to determine something as "of satan"... I don't see that GOD has appointed you this AUTHORITY. :mnah:

And besides, no one has suggested that we not communicate with our God...  It has just been noted that the HEAD is that which notes the actions and doings of the BODY...  And that those actions and doings were LONG AGO noted by YHVH ...before... they were become "actions and/or doings"... by Him... so "when" they are manifest, ...they occur according to that proclamation HE has already made of them...  :dontknow:

The examples of how GOD works in His Creation and IN His BODY are given in the natural for us to observe (i.e. our own bodies and that which surrounds them)

Do you percieve that...

...It is your FEET which decide WHERE your body shall GO?

...Or that your EARS decide WHAT you shall HEAR?

...Or your HANDS decide WHAT you shall TYPE on your computer keyboard?  :shakepoint:

If you cannot see this (then, at least for the moment), you cannot...  :dontknow:

No offense intended to you brother Tank, ...but that you cannot "see" this in this moment, does not therefore mean that it is not so, ...nor that it is of "ADVERSITY"... any more than a blind man shall in his blindness, determine the pattern on your shirt as UGLY and ADVERSE to his eyes (which cannot "see")...  :dontknow:

:Peace: ...willieH  :cloud9:
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 10:55:09 PM by willieH »