Suffering?

[JohnnyCatholic12]

Brothers and Sisters,
I have a question for you all.  My wife and I were having a discussion about suffering in the world this morning.  You see my wife is a Deist, and doesn't believe in Jesus Christ because she said too much suffering goes on in the world, and where is God in all of this?  I tried to explain that suffering in the world is our fault, and a result of our free will but she said God should have never created us in the first place since he knew we would cause all of this suffering.
Also, she asked why some people get saved for tragedy and others don't.  I didn't really know what to say just because I'm not totally sure God does intervene to save people in auto accidents, plane crashes, etc.  She pointed to passage in Matthew where Jesus calms the storm while they were out on the boat as proof that God does intervene in tragedy. 

I was hoping I could get some more solid answers from the collective wisdom of you all.  I appreciate any responses.

[Beloved Servant]

Wisdom is a great gift of God.

But without understanding you can can never appropriate it.

Your wife, and many people of the world, seek to know the deep things of God and that starts with faith.

[Nancy]

hi there Johnnycatholic12,

My husband would agree with your wife so you're not alone.
I believe that if God knew evil would come and He created it therefore there must be a purpose to it.  We cannot possibly know with our little minds what that purpose is and i believe it is there, otherwise your wife is right, this world doesn't make sense.

Godbless
Nancy

[Lefein]

In light of The True Gospel of Universal Reconciliation (or at the very least, the non-existence of Eternal Damnation)

You have been afforded an opportunity in witness.  She is a Deist already, Hell hath no fury at all in her beliefs.  She'll be much more inclined to see the logic in UR.

As for suffering, I often say this, and perhaps you could do some research on it.

"God made everything Good, he intends to make everything Glorious."

"In the span of deathless infinity, all the finite evils of even a trillion years will be but a pixel in the universe - forgettable, and insignificant compared to the long ages of glory ahead."

[willieH]

willieH: Hi JohnnyC... 

Brothers and Sisters,
I have a question for you all.  My wife and I were having a discussion about suffering in the world this morning.  You see my wife is a Deist, and doesn't believe in Jesus Christ because she said too much suffering goes on in the world, and where is God in all of this?

GOD is PRESENT in ALL THINGS, brother, for He is about working ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11 -- If He were not PRESENT in them, how may He be WORKING them? 

There are many lessons within suffering, that teach us that the opposite condition in EVERY instance of it, is GOOD... 

Time is the FIRE which encases us in it's SUFFERING as we travel, and are TRIED within it -- Mark 9:49 -- Rev 3:18

As we journey in TIME... we begin with all things NEW... we have the entirety of LIFE before us, we are surrounded by our loved ones, we are youthful, we are filled with energy, we have suffered NOTHING...

But as TIME unfolds... we LOSE all these things to it.  Our loved ones, one by one are taken away, our youth is taken away, our energy is taken away, the entirety of LIFE dissapates to NOTHING... concluding in the LOSS of EVERYTHING we began with.

Suffering is the MANIFESTATION of EVIL's part in the KNOWLEDGE of our circumstances... be it mental, spiritual or physical... it OPPOSES that which SHOULD BE... LIFE should exist not death, ...no?  HAPPINESS should exist, not sorrow, no?  HEALTH not disease, no?  FULFULLMENT not emptiness, ...no?

If there were no "violations or oppositions" of GOOD, how might it be observed?  Everything that exists, has OPPOSITION, which indicates it.

Up has down, ...East has West, ...Nothing has Something, ...High has Low, ...Short has Long, ...Rough has Smooth...  and if we backtrack, in this short list, ...how may we determine UP if there is no "DOWN"?  Or EAST if there is no WEST?

How might one KNOW "hunger", if one is continually FED?  How might one KNOW "poverty" if one is continually RICH, never in the NEED that poverty establishes?

One does not "KNOW" something, until one has EXPERIENCED it... You can read a 1000 or a million books about "how to drive a car", but until you actually get behind the wheel, you really do NOT KNOW how to "drive" that car.

Suffering is a part of the WORD for the WORD of YHVH contains the notations of SUFFERING.

It is the DIVINE process of PERFECTION -- Heb 2:10 -- without it, we are INCOMPLETE.  And the GOOD which is GOD's Glory, unKNOWN to us. 

I tried to explain that suffering in the world is our fault, and a result of our free will but she said God should have never created us in the first place since he knew we would cause all of this suffering.

"Free will" is not a subject which is allowed for discussion here @ Tentmaker.

That said... it is NOT "our fault" that suffering is present... GOD has concluded ALL in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 -- Of HIS decision -- FAITH is BELIEF in the WORD as truth -- John 14:6 -- John 3:16  -- WHATSOEVER is NOT of FAITH is SIN -- Rom 14:23 -- SIN occurs in each of us due to UNBELIEF... therefore it cannot be truly said that it is "OUR FAULT" that we SIN...

She poses a good arguement, if SUFFERING has no point or value (which is how she sees it at present)... however suffering DOES indeed have GREAT VALUE... in that it INDICATES that which is [eternally] GOOD by its encumbering [and temporal] presence!

If one is (TEMPORARILY), LONELY... it is a deep SUFFERING for lack of companionship... and the lack of the fulfillments that (PERMANENT) companionship brings to the heart...

But LONELINESS, once it has ended, ...then serves as an indicator of the GOOD that is found in the removal of that (temporal) LONELINESS by the advent of COMPANIONSHIP... and that (permanent) COMPANIONSHIP is extremely enhanced by the previous "knowledge (via the experience) of LONELINESS"... 

Also, she asked why some people get saved for tragedy and others don't.

It is impossible to make such a conclusion without TOTAL knowledge of the one observed. 

That YOU view another in this moment or that, does not indicate that you have observed this person in their EVERY MOMENT, in which "tragedy" easily and LIKELY exists for them.

By looking at a MAN in line at McDonald's (why would you eat there?  ...Just kidn!  )... how may you determine that by the BMW he drove up in, and the TAILORED SUIT he is wearing, along with the $100 bill he uses to pay for his burger & fries,  ...that "TRAGEDY" is not present in his circumstances, or that he has been somehow, SPARED "tragedy"? 

He might have gotten his heart broken last week cuz his wife served him divorce papers?  ...or is coming from a doctors visit which has diagnosed him with TERMINAL CANCER? ...or finally stopped crying for a time, because HIS MOTHER DIED 2 days ago, ...or that the "BMW" is up for REPOSSESSION? ...or that his $100K per year JOB has just ENDED and he figured he be thrifty with his remaining money by eating at McPups?  

I didn't really know what to say just because I'm not totally sure God does intervene to save people in auto accidents, plane crashes, etc.  She pointed to passage in Matthew where Jesus calms the storm while they were out on the boat as proof that God does intervene in tragedy.

Actually... the passage in Matthew doesn't indicate any TRAGEDY at all... if anything, the "tragedy" is the lack of FAITH of those who were in the BODILY presence of the SON of GOD!  Yes, they were FEARFUL, but there is nothing to indicate that a "TRAGEDY" was about to take place...

(You are welcome to disagree, but) In my observation, ...GOD does not "intervene" in anything.  He is about manifesting HIS DIVINE AGENDA which is come forth from HIS WORD, and has already indicated ALL THINGS which partake of that agenda -- Isaiah 46:10

If a "miracle" occurs in our observance... then it appears so in OUR EYES, but the truth is that it was already in and part of the DECLARATION of "things that are NOT yet DONE" (which is EVERYTHING)... that it occur. 

We are "learners" of that AGENDA... and are, in faith, to arrive at acceptance of it, regardless of what it contains -- Phil 4:11 

We are to Pray for that which we would desire, but always according to the WILL of the ONE which has outlined that agenda, and accept the outcome of it, irregardless to the "outcome" as potentially not in line with our "request"... as did JESUS -- Luke 22:42 

I was hoping I could get some more solid answers from the collective wisdom of you all.  I appreciate any responses.

I sincerely hope I have given you some things to consider in this response, and wish you God's leading in your life and concerning your wife... 



...willieH 

[Beloved Servant]

Only affliction can work compassion.

[thinktank]

Brothers and Sisters,
I have a question for you all.  My wife and I were having a discussion about suffering in the world this morning.  You see my wife is a Deist, and doesn't believe in Jesus Christ because she said too much suffering goes on in the world, and where is God in all of this?  I tried to explain that suffering in the world is our fault, and a result of our free will but she said God should have never created us in the first place since he knew we would cause all of this suffering.
Also, she asked why some people get saved for tragedy and others don't.  I didn't really know what to say just because I'm not totally sure God does intervene to save people in auto accidents, plane crashes, etc.  She pointed to passage in Matthew where Jesus calms the storm while they were out on the boat as proof that God does intervene in tragedy. 

I was hoping I could get some more solid answers from the collective wisdom of you all.  I appreciate any responses.

Despite the suffering we have brought upon ourselves as individuals and as a race God in his love for us will restore us and help us learn the valuable lessons of life that evil is unprofitable, each of us are working out our own salvation with trembling and fear, others have to go through great pain and chastisments until they realize that the fruit of evil is unprofitable.

Also God does intervene in tragedy, but it takes a man to stand in the gap between life and death, to intercede and call forth Gods angels to protect people from evil. Due to the complexity of life it is impossible to explain every detail. But some reasons why God cannot work as much as he wants is because people have forsaken his commandments and sin seperates him from us.

Also God can also intervene after tragedy, and bring good out of evil ,life out of death, for he has the keys of death hell and the grave and also has the power to rise men from the grave and cast them down again.

[marcstalkspot]

I posted a link about this the other day.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8752.0

[jabcat]

"Free will" is not a subject which is allowed for discussion here @ Tentmaker.

That said... it is NOT "our fault" that suffering is present... GOD has concluded ALL in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32

 

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Tank... 

Also God does intervene in tragedy, but it takes a man to stand in the gap between life and death, to intercede and call forth Gods angels to protect people from evil.

I disagree, ...if God "intervenes" in one tragedy and not another, ...or "protect" one from evil and not another, ...He is become a respecter of persons... which He is NOT... (partial to one and not another)

But some reasons why God cannot work as much as he wants is because people have forsaken his commandments and sin seperates him from us.

Sorry, but disagree with this as well... "God cannot work as much as He wants"?  Please... you have the SINNER inhibiting the desire as well as the WORK of the ALMIGHTY...   

God created ALL men, KNOWING all they would do... and so no man "inhibits" GOD, for GOD foreknew everything they would do, as well as everything HE would do... in His UNCHANGING agenda... which was DECLARED in totality, before even one man, did ANYTHING -- Isaiah 46:10

Men forsake His commandments, simply because He has CONCLUDED them ALL in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32

Also God can also intervene after tragedy, and bring good out of evil ,life out of death, for he has the keys of death hell and the grave and

GOD does not "intervene", He WORKS all things according to HIS WILL which is, was and always will be UNCHANGING -- Eph 1:11 -- Mal 3:6

If it appears to any given MAN (such as yourself), that He has "intervened", it is just a LIMITED finite vision of an INFINITE "doing"... which had already been DECLARED as it was manifest, BEFORE it was manifest... 

also has the power to rise men from the grave and cast them down again.

So say you... show the Scripture that says this...

Where does the Scripture SAY -- "He shall them men DOWN AGAIN to the grave? 

...willieH 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi James...

"Free will" is not a subject which is allowed for discussion here @ Tentmaker.

That said... it is NOT "our fault" that suffering is present... GOD has concluded ALL in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32

 

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html

   Without ever reading this by Eby... I have stated the very same things... almost to the letter... thanks for posting this James... 

...willieH 

[Lefein]

Daniel and the Lion's den.

Daniel's friends in the furnace.

Several Legions of angels that could be called down by Christ to defend him.

Mary and Joseph warned by an angel to flee - a warning is a form of protection, especially if heeded.

Rebuking the devourer = Protection.

Israel protected multiple times by God in their wars.

God killing the Egyptian soldiers in the sea of reeds/red sea.

God confusing armies into killing each other.

Peter being rescued by an angel while in prison...

Paul was rescued several times if I recall correctly...

The list goes on of God intervening to protect one group, against another, as well as individuals.

[shawn]

Depends on what you believe in.  I am much more Calvinist in my belief system (gasp I know).  I believe in predestination.  I believe God is sovereign.  I don't believe any of this took God by surprise.  So, God foreknew of the suffering and created us anyhow.  God doesn't make mistakes.  God loves agape.  Therefore, there is a greater purpose, a holy purpose in suffering.  I can say suffering in my own life has brought me revelation, growth and humility.  I know it has served a significant and wonderful purpose in my own life.

From a UR perspective suffering makes complete sense.  Suffering=refining fire in the life of a believer.  Suffering brings contrast revelation.  Without suffering we do not know peace and joy.  Without darkness we do not understand light.  Suffering is often the only teacher some people listen to.  Suffering gives one appreciation for the perfect joy in Christ.  With the UR belief all suffering is of a temporal nature and will be brought into perfect perspective when we all live with Christ someday.  As Zender would say, who is going to care how much they suffered in this short life when they are with Christ for eternity.  Everyone will know their role, why they suffered and the suffering will be no more.  I doubt you will have anyone complaining.

[jabcat]

Depends on what you believe in.  I am much more Calvinist in my belief system (gasp I know).  I believe in predestination.  I believe God is sovereign.  I don't believe any of this took God by surprise.  So, God foreknew of the suffering and created us anyhow.  God doesn't make mistakes.  God loves agape.  Therefore, there is a greater purpose, a holy purpose in suffering.  I can say suffering in my own life has brought me revelation, growth and humility.  I know it has served a significant and wonderful purpose in my own life.

From a UR perspective suffering makes complete sense.  Suffering=refining fire in the life of a believer.  Suffering brings contrast revelation.  Without suffering we do not know peace and joy.  Without darkness we do not understand light.  Suffering is often the only teacher some people listen to.  Suffering gives one appreciation for the perfect joy in Christ.  With the UR belief all suffering is of a temporal nature and will be brought into perfect perspective when we all live with Christ someday.  As Zender would say, who is going to care how much they suffered in this short life when they are with Christ for eternity.  Everyone will know their role, why they suffered and the suffering will be no more.  I doubt you will have anyone complaining.

 ...and Paul said the troubles we have here aren't worthy of comparison to the glory to come [paraphrase]

you might enjoy this   http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8111.msg106409#msg106409

[Quaesitor]

Daniel and the Lion's den.

Daniel's friends in the furnace.

Several Legions of angels that could be called down by Christ to defend him.

Mary and Joseph warned by an angel to flee - a warning is a form of protection, especially if heeded.

Rebuking the devourer = Protection.

Israel protected multiple times by God in their wars.

God killing the Egyptian soldiers in the sea of reeds/red sea.

God confusing armies into killing each other.

Peter being rescued by an angel while in prison...

Paul was rescued several times if I recall correctly...

The list goes on of God intervening to protect one group, against another, as well as individuals.

Lefein, I don't want to rush to Willie's defence but I think he meant that when God does intervene, it was already destined to be so as God has declared the beginning from the end. So when God intervenes, it is His purpose and when He doesn't, it is also His purpose. Millions of people praying for days wouldn't change that because God does everything according to His will.
Willie, correct me if I'm mistaken and Lefein sorry if that's not what you meant.

[Lefein]

My intent was to show that God does (as far as mortal sight is concerned) intervene in some individual's lives, but not in others, or atleast in the same way.

Peter was rescued from prison, while Bob down the street...might not, or is not.

If that makes sense.

Yet I'll remind the world - prayer is important, ask, seek, knock, and you shall receive.

[reFORMer]

There are reasons for suffering given in Scripture, lot of it in Hebrews.  Use a concordance and meditiate on what is written.  Why should we be given more when we haven't used what we have?

The Infinite expressed in and through the finite is a reason for suffering.

[shawn]

Daniel and the Lion's den.

Daniel's friends in the furnace.

Several Legions of angels that could be called down by Christ to defend him.

Mary and Joseph warned by an angel to flee - a warning is a form of protection, especially if heeded.

Rebuking the devourer = Protection.

Israel protected multiple times by God in their wars.

God killing the Egyptian soldiers in the sea of reeds/red sea.

God confusing armies into killing each other.

Peter being rescued by an angel while in prison...

Paul was rescued several times if I recall correctly...

The list goes on of God intervening to protect one group, against another, as well as individuals.

Lefein, I don't want to rush to Willie's defence but I think he meant that when God does intervene, it was already destined to be so as God has declared the beginning from the end. So when God intervenes, it is His purpose and when He doesn't, it is also His purpose. Millions of people praying for days wouldn't change that because God does everything according to His will.
Willie, correct me if I'm mistaken and Lefein sorry if that's not what you meant.

I'm not saying I disagree with that.  But, where is the power of prayer in all of that?

[Ross]

Hi there;
Is 45;5-7 " I am Yahweh and there is none else, there is no God besides Me, I gird you though you have not known Me; that men may get to know from the rising of the sun and from the west that there is none besides Me , I am Yahweh and there is none else: forming light and creating darkness, making prosperity and creating misfortune, I Yahweh who does all these."

Rom 9;14-16 " What then shall we say? Is there injustice with God? Far be it ! For to Moses He said,
' I will have mercy upon whoever I am having mercy, and I will have compassion upon whoever I am having compassion.'
 Hence it is not of him that wishes nor of him that runs, but of the mercy-showing God."

Rom 9;20-23 " O man! who are you that is answering again to God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it
 ' Why did you make me like this?'
Or has not the potter a right over the clay to make out of the same lump some into a vessel for honour and some for dishonour? And if God, wishing to show His anger and to make known His power, bare in much patience with vessels of anger already fitted for destruction, in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy which He prepared beforehand for glory, whom He also called, even us not only from among the Jews, but also from among the nations."

* I personally know His mercy to still be here today and to get to know the truth because of His provision and not my self-righteous effort. These scriptures are there to reinforce that He is showing equality to all mankind, but has some people chosen to play particular roles in the drama of life. Those roles help to show what is useful to others and what is purely for personal gain no matter what the cost. Seems that that is part of the training of getting to know right from wrong.
* I  know that mercy because I was unconsciously  driving a car that smashed into a brick wall at top speed and all that was written off was the car, not me. I should have died yet I did not. I had no say in any of that. I did not come to realize the significance until 10 years later when I was trying to be super spiritual in my own attempts. Fortunately His mercy covered my ridiculous self-righteousness and His mercy has become so deep that I feel encouraged to press on regardless of what may be happening around me. He actually knows what to do and when to do it. Awesome.

[Beloved Servant]

Prayer seems to work by aligning me to God's Will and not the other way around.
"Thy Will be done on earth as it is in heaven."
Those words are our recognition and affirmation of His Sovereignty.


Joshua 10;
14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.

[Quaesitor]

Daniel and the Lion's den.

Daniel's friends in the furnace.

Several Legions of angels that could be called down by Christ to defend him.

Mary and Joseph warned by an angel to flee - a warning is a form of protection, especially if heeded.

Rebuking the devourer = Protection.

Israel protected multiple times by God in their wars.

God killing the Egyptian soldiers in the sea of reeds/red sea.

God confusing armies into killing each other.

Peter being rescued by an angel while in prison...

Paul was rescued several times if I recall correctly...

The list goes on of God intervening to protect one group, against another, as well as individuals.

Lefein, I don't want to rush to Willie's defence but I think he meant that when God does intervene, it was already destined to be so as God has declared the beginning from the end. So when God intervenes, it is His purpose and when He doesn't, it is also His purpose. Millions of people praying for days wouldn't change that because God does everything according to His will.
Willie, correct me if I'm mistaken and Lefein sorry if that's not what you meant.

I'm not saying I disagree with that.  But, where is the power of prayer in all of that?

Prayers change our own heart and bring forth offerings of good odors to God.

[Lefein]

My list was just examples in general of God's intervention"esque" type work.

However, if it is the power of prayer that is concerned.  Israel often supplicated and received mercy after their sins.

One of the main themes of every prophet; "Repent!  The enemy is at your gate!"

To which Israel either submitted, and did rightly, repenting to the Lord saying "We have sinned!" (that is a form of prayer), and so the Lord's wrath left them.

I've been reading Jonah, and doing a small study (which, though it is a forbidden subject I think it has alot to say about Free-will/God's Plan, and omniscience) and in it Jonah prayed to God from the belly of the fish and was released after repenting.

Act 12:5  Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him.

Spoiler alert; he gets rescued by an angel. :p

[Molly]

My intent was to show that God does (as far as mortal sight is concerned) intervene in some individual's lives, but not in others, or atleast in the same way.

Peter was rescued from prison, while Bob down the street...might not, or is not.

If that makes sense.

Yet I'll remind the world - prayer is important, ask, seek, knock, and you shall receive.

 

Matthew 21:22
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

[Molly]

Act 12:5  Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him.

Spoiler alert; he gets rescued by an angel. :p

The funny thing about that story is that when their prayers are answered and Peter shows up at their door, the woman who sees him goes screaming to the rest that Peter is outside, and they don't believe her, so he's left standing on the porch.
Even those who have enough faith to pray are often astonished when it works.


13And as Peter knocked at the door of the gate, a damsel came to hearken, named Rhoda.

 14And when she knew Peter's voice, she opened not the gate for gladness, but ran in, and told how Peter stood before the gate.

 15And they said unto her, Thou art mad. But she constantly affirmed that it was even so. Then said they, It is his angel.

 16But Peter continued knocking: and when they had opened the door, and saw him, they were astonished.
--Acts 12

[Beloved Servant]

Joshua 10:

14; And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.

God changes not; prayer changes us.