willieH: Hi JohnnyC...
Brothers and Sisters,
I have a question for you all. My wife and I were having a discussion about suffering in the world this morning. You see my wife is a Deist, and doesn't believe in Jesus Christ because she said too much suffering goes on in the world, and where is God in all of this?
GOD is PRESENT in ALL THINGS, brother, for He is about working ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11
-- If He were not PRESENT in them, how may He be WORKING them?
There are many lessons within suffering, that teach us that the opposite condition in EVERY instance of it, is GOOD...
Time is the FIRE
which encases us in it's SUFFERING as we travel, and are TRIED within it -- Mark 9:49 -- Rev 3:18
As we journey in TIME... we begin with all things NEW... we have the entirety of LIFE before us, we are surrounded by our loved ones, we are youthful, we are filled with energy, we have suffered NOTHING...
But as TIME unfolds... we LOSE all these things to it. Our loved ones, one by one are taken away, our youth is taken away, our energy is taken away, the entirety of LIFE dissapates to NOTHING... concluding in the LOSS of EVERYTHING we began with.
Suffering is the MANIFESTATION of EVIL's part in the KNOWLEDGE of our circumstances... be it mental, spiritual or physical... it OPPOSES that which SHOULD BE
... LIFE should exist not death, ...no? HAPPINESS should exist, not sorrow, no? HEALTH not disease, no? FULFULLMENT not emptiness, ...no?
If there were no "violations or oppositions" of GOOD, how might it be observed? Everything that exists, has OPPOSITION, which indicates it.Up has down
, ...East has West
, ...Nothing has Something
, ...High has Low
, ...Short has Long
, ...Rough has Smooth
... and if we backtrack, in this short list, ...how may we determine UP if there is no "DOWN"? Or EAST if there is no WEST?
How might one KNOW "hunger", if one is continually FED? How might one KNOW "poverty" if one is continually RICH, never in the NEED that poverty establishes?
One does not "KNOW" something, until one has EXPERIENCED it... You can read a 1000 or a million books about "how to drive a car", but until you actually get behind the wheel
, you really do NOT KNOW
how to "drive" that car.
Suffering is a part of the WORD
for the WORD
contains the notations of SUFFERING
It is the DIVINE process of PERFECTION -- Heb 2:10
-- without it, we are INCOMPLETE. And the GOOD
which is GOD's Glory, unKNOWN
I tried to explain that suffering in the world is our fault, and a result of our free will but she said God should have never created us in the first place since he knew we would cause all of this suffering.
"Free will" is not a subject which is allowed for discussion here @ Tentmaker.
That said... it is NOT "our fault" that suffering is present... GOD has concluded ALL in UNBELIEF
-- Rom 11:32
-- Of HIS decision -- FAITH is BELIEF
in the WORD
as truth -- John 14:6 -- John 3:16
-- WHATSOEVER is NOT of FAITH
is SIN -- Rom 14:23
-- SIN occurs in each of us due to UNBELIEF... therefore it cannot be truly said that it is "OUR FAULT" that we SIN...
She poses a good arguement, if SUFFERING has no point or value (which is how she sees it at present)... however suffering DOES indeed have GREAT VALUE... in that it INDICATES that which is [eternally] GOOD by its encumbering [and temporal] presence!
If one is (TEMPORARILY), LONELY... it is a deep SUFFERING for lack of companionship... and the lack of the fulfillments that (PERMANENT) companionship brings to the heart...
But LONELINESS, once it has ended, ...then serves as an indicator of the GOOD that is found in the removal of that (temporal) LONELINESS by the advent of COMPANIONSHIP... and that (permanent) COMPANIONSHIP is extremely
enhanced by the previous "knowledge (via the experience) of LONELINESS"...
Also, she asked why some people get saved for tragedy and others don't.
It is impossible to make such a conclusion without TOTAL knowledge of the one observed.
That YOU view another in this moment or that
, does not indicate that you have observed this person in their EVERY MOMENT, in which "tragedy" easily and LIKELY exists for them.
By looking at a MAN in line at McDonald's (why would you eat there?
)... how may you determine that by the BMW
he drove up in, and the TAILORED SUIT
he is wearing, along with the $100 bill
he uses to pay for his burger & fries, ...that "TRAGEDY" is not present in his circumstances, or that he has been somehow, SPARED "tragedy"?
He might have gotten his heart broken last week cuz his wife served him divorce papers? ...or is coming from a doctors visit which has diagnosed him with TERMINAL CANCER
? ...or finally stopped crying for a time, because HIS MOTHER DIED
2 days ago, ...or that the "BMW" is up for REPOSSESSION
? ...or that his $100K per year JOB has just ENDED
and he figured he be thrifty with his remaining money by eating at McPups?
I didn't really know what to say just because I'm not totally sure God does intervene to save people in auto accidents, plane crashes, etc. She pointed to passage in Matthew where Jesus calms the storm while they were out on the boat as proof that God does intervene in tragedy.
Actually... the passage in Matthew doesn't indicate any TRAGEDY at all... if anything, the "tragedy" is the lack of FAITH of those who were in the BODILY presence of the SON of GOD! Yes, they were FEARFUL, but there is nothing to indicate that a "TRAGEDY" was about to take place...
(You are welcome to disagree, but) In my observation, ...GOD does not "intervene" in anything
. He is about manifesting HIS DIVINE AGENDA which is come forth from HIS WORD
, and has already indicated ALL THINGS which partake of that agenda -- Isaiah 46:10
If a "miracle" occurs in our observance... then it appears so in OUR EYES, but the truth is that it was already in and part of the DECLARATION of "things that are NOT yet DONE" (which is EVERYTHING)... that it occur.
We are "learners" of that AGENDA... and are, in faith, to arrive at acceptance of it, regardless of what it contains -- Phil 4:11
We are to Pray for that which we would desire, but always according to the WILL
of the ONE which has outlined that agenda, and accept
the outcome of it, irregardless to the "outcome" as potentially not in line with our "request"... as did JESUS
-- Luke 22:42
I was hoping I could get some more solid answers from the collective wisdom of you all. I appreciate any responses.
I sincerely hope I have given you some things to consider in this response, and wish you God's leading in your life and concerning your wife...