Suffering?

[Beloved Servant]

I know my child will choose the cupcake, and I watch as he chooses the cupcake, just as I knew he would.

Did Adam and Eve choose the cupcake?

[jabcat]

That's the whole "experience of evil", isn't it?  The concept I've been trying to get my mind around for some time.  The "lowered into this realm".  The "all turned to disobedience so He can have mercy on all"...

Good word.   

[Beloved Servant]

Amen James.

[Molly]

Eve was deceived by the Nacash [serpent].  But, Adam wasn't.

[Beloved Servant]

We are the masterpiece of His Creation and by dragging us through this realm He gets back something greater than He created.

[Beloved Servant]

Eve was deceived by the Nacash [serpent].  But, Adam wasn't.

moot.
Adam (plural).

[Molly]

We are the masterpiece of His Creation and by dragging us through this realm He gets back something greater than He created.

Although I do think, and I figure you won't agree, that man was meant to learn about good and evil after a certain amount of maturity, and Satan bypassed that plan by offering it to man too soon.

So we split the atom and make a bomb instead of giving electricity to the whole world.   We are not mature enough yet to handle the knowledge.

[Molly]

Eve was deceived by the Nacash [serpent].  But, Adam wasn't.

moot.
Adam (plural).

It's not moot in the sense that Adam at least thought he was doing the right thing.  He made a choice for Eve.  As Christ makes a choice for the church.

[Lefein]

Did Adam and Eve choose the cupcake?

No.  They chose to eat from the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, instead of being content with the rest of the garden.

But the difference between me and God, is that I can only predict the obvious.

[Beloved Servant]

We are the masterpiece of His Creation and by dragging us through this realm He gets back something greater than He created.

Although I do think, and I figure you won't agree, that man was meant to learn about good and evil after a certain amount of maturity, and Satan bypassed that plan by offering it to man too soon.

So we split the atom and make a bomb instead of giving electricity to the whole world.   We are not mature enough yet to handle the knowledge.

Bypassed the plan?
NOT A CHANCE, he's but a dog on a leash without any cards up his sleeve.
God's timing, like everything is supremely perfect. No one can usurp His plan, change it or take Him by surprise.

We blow ourselves up because we ate the good and evil without the wisdom of God to cover it and without life (the tree of) we only can reproduce death.

[Lefein]

Satan is an awful lot like the school yard bully.  He thinks he rules the school, and thinks he is above even the principle...but when push comes to shove, he has to obey the teacher too, and he has to ask permission before he can mess with the art supplies.

[JohnnyCatholic12]

We are the masterpiece of His Creation and by dragging us through this realm He gets back something greater than He created.

Although I do think, and I figure you won't agree, that man was meant to learn about good and evil after a certain amount of maturity, and Satan bypassed that plan by offering it to man too soon.

So we split the atom and make a bomb instead of giving electricity to the whole world.   We are not mature enough yet to handle the knowledge.

Bypassed the plan?
NOT A CHANCE, he's but a dog on a leash without any cards up his sleeve.
God's timing, like everything is supremely perfect. No one can usurp His plan, change it or take Him by surprise.

We blow ourselves up because we ate the good and evil without the wisdom of God to cover it and without life (the tree of) we only can reproduce death.

Truth.  People give Satan waaaaaaay too much credit.  Satan is under God's command.  Satan is not some monster running around blowing up God's plans.  Satan has a purpose and God uses Him for the purposes He chooses.

[Molly]

We are the masterpiece of His Creation and by dragging us through this realm He gets back something greater than He created.

Although I do think, and I figure you won't agree, that man was meant to learn about good and evil after a certain amount of maturity, and Satan bypassed that plan by offering it to man too soon.

So we split the atom and make a bomb instead of giving electricity to the whole world.   We are not mature enough yet to handle the knowledge.

Bypassed the plan?
NOT A CHANCE, he's but a dog on a leash without any cards up his sleeve.
God's timing, like everything is supremely perfect. No one can usurp His plan, change it or take Him by surprise.

We blow ourselves up because we ate the good and evil without the wisdom of God to cover it and without life (the tree of) we only can reproduce death.

Truth.  People give Satan waaaaaaay too much credit.  Satan is under God's command.  Satan is not some monster running around blowing up God's plans.  Satan has a purpose and God uses Him for the purposes He chooses.

You mean like human sacrifice, for instance?  Like torture?  Like murder?  I'll give Satan credit for all of that and more.  As God said, this stuff didn't even enter his mind.

[Lefein]

Satan, like the nations God used to punish Israel, likes to boast that they are mighty in their power.  But the axe doesn't long boast against the hand that is using it to chop, or the saw that is being wielded back and forth...he may boast, but Satan will like the nations God used, Babylon, Assyria, the Edomites, Ammorites, etc...will be punished for their iniquity.

The Israelites bowed down to Baals, and so the nations of Baal took them as slaves, and killed them!  God punished the Israelites who worshiped Baal, but behold, he punished all who worship Baal, and broke the idols themselves before his presence.

[JohnnyCatholic12]

We are the masterpiece of His Creation and by dragging us through this realm He gets back something greater than He created.

Although I do think, and I figure you won't agree, that man was meant to learn about good and evil after a certain amount of maturity, and Satan bypassed that plan by offering it to man too soon.

So we split the atom and make a bomb instead of giving electricity to the whole world.   We are not mature enough yet to handle the knowledge.

Bypassed the plan?
NOT A CHANCE, he's but a dog on a leash without any cards up his sleeve.
God's timing, like everything is supremely perfect. No one can usurp His plan, change it or take Him by surprise.

We blow ourselves up because we ate the good and evil without the wisdom of God to cover it and without life (the tree of) we only can reproduce death.

Truth.  People give Satan waaaaaaay too much credit.  Satan is under God's command.  Satan is not some monster running around blowing up God's plans.  Satan has a purpose and God uses Him for the purposes He chooses.

You mean like human sacrifice, for instance?  Like torture?  Like murder?  I'll give Satan credit for all of that and more.  As God said, this stuff didn't even enter his mind.

So you propose that Satan operates outside the Will of God?  Satan was created by who?  God.  God created Satan, do you believe that was mistaken when He made Satan?  That He messed up or "things just went wrong?"  Why do we humans love to project their faults onto God?  Why do we project our same weakness, errors, and folly in planning onto God, as if He operates on the same plane we do? 

If a pharmaceutical company creates a medicine that causes lets say blindness who do we fault, the medicine or the scientist?  Why do we hold the creature rather than the Creator responsible then?  God has a plan, and "is working ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS Will."  Note who Paul states is doing the working, not us, not Satan, God.  God is working.  Sometimes I feel as though we try and equate God to the "The Watchmaker" of Deism.  God doesn't make mistakes.

[jabcat]

Good posts everyone.  Congrats on discussing this VERY difficult, complicated subject - so overwhelming to our finite, human minds - in such a productive manner.   

[thinktank]

Perhaps you lot want to become punch and judy, but as for me and my house we shall worship the lord in spirit and in truth as joint or co heirs with Jesus Christ.

Peace

"For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.  So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but OF GOD that shows mercy.  For the Scripture says unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show My powers in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore has He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens."-Romans 9:15-18

"And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh and he hearkened not unto them, as the Lord had spoken unto Moses"-Exodus 9:12

"For God has concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon ALL. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God? How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor? Or who has first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen" (Rom. 11:32-36).

    "And as a vesture shall Thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but THOU ART THE SAME…" (Heb. 1:12).

    "For I am the Lord, I CHANGE NOT…" (Mal. 3:6).

    "Jesus Christ the SAME yesterday, and today, and for ever" (Heb. 13:8).

"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINED according to the PURPOSE OF HIM Who WORKS ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:11).

"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him Who has subjected the same in hope."-Rom 8:20

"Then said Pilate unto Him, Speak you not unto me? Know you not that I have to crucify you, and have power to realase you? Jesus answered, You could have NO POWER AT ALL against Me, except it were GIVEN YOU from above…" (John 19:10-11).

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (faith) not of yourselves it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:8-10).

"For it is God which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

(All emphasis and bold-ing of words and statements were added.)

I could go on and on with a hundred more scriptures but I hope you get the point I am trying to get across.  If you learn nothing else, please learn that A) "For by grace ye are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves but it is the GIFT of GOD." B) "For it is GOD which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure."  God works all things to counsel of His Will and "Thy Will BE DONE."
The arguments I see put forth from the other side of the aisle are emotional appeals and the desires of man to control his own fate.  My arguments come from Scripture, which is inspired by God.  So I leave you with one more passage: "Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar."-Romans 3:4

Hey johnny  , the above scriptures are basically saying that we are not God, they do not nullify the argments I and others here have made at all. What you are arguing against is that we are not God the creator. I have never said that we are God, even though it seems many people here I think that  what I argue is based on scripture from cover to cover, it starts right off from Genesis, when God gave adam a choice between the tree of good and evil and the tree of life. This is just one scripture of hundreds of such cases. The scriptures you quote do not make void all these other scriptures, otherwise half the bible is made void.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (faith) not of yourselves it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:8-10).


No offense but what kind of a christian think's he can save himself, such a person is still in darkness and has not had a true revelation of who Jesus Christ is. When a person is in darkness they are outside the will of God, they cannot hear God or be directed by him and they often commit hideous crimes

listen to what solomon had to say arguably the wisest man ever lived

Proverbs 4:23   
Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.

Proverbs 15:28   
The heart of the righteous studieth to answer: but the mouth of the wicked poureth out evil things.

lets see what Jesus says our author and finisher of our faith.

Matthew 12:35   
A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Matthew 15:19   
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

 (not in the will of God, outside it see).

This is why Christians pray so that we can hear God and be directed by his will, yes? Can I get a witness?


"For God has concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon ALL. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God? How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor? Or who has first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen" (Rom. 11:32-36)


Let me ask you this question, are you in unbelief? am I? are the people here at tentmaker? The answer I hope is no , if you read the passage in context you will see that Paul is talking about the gentiles who were in the past, had no access to christ and therefore lost, without hope, for how can a man exist without God?
The mercy upon all are the gentiles, who of course by now are no longer subject to unbelief BC, but do have belief AD as many here testify and millions around the world.



"Then said Pilate unto Him, Speak you not unto me? Know you not that I have to crucify you, and have power to realase you? Jesus answered, You could have NO POWER AT ALL against Me, except it were GIVEN YOU from above…" (John 19:10-11).

Interesting you bring up pilate. What a great story to try and prove what I am saying. Ok here we have pilate, now I ask you this? What did pilate want? Did he want to cruxify Jesus Christ? I hope the answer you give is no. Ok so pilate does not want to cruxify Jesus Christ? Even though this cruxifiction is of utmost importance to God. So we have God who's supposedly in charge of mans will, but yet is not able to control pilate and tell him to cruxify Jesus Christ. One might say God gives us an illusion, that man has control and was playing tricks with pilate. Ok if you want to believe that then go ahead, but does God want to confuse his readers? Pilate does not desire to cruxify Jesus because that's his will, but Gods will is greater and the cruxifiction must come to pass and that is, that Jesus Christ hangs on a tree for our sins and breaks every curse, for cursed is he that hangeth on a tree.


"For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.  So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but OF GOD that shows mercy.  For the Scripture says unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show My powers in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore has He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens."-Romans 9:15-18

Here we have God revealing the very purpose of raising up pharoa, to bring his name glory to the ends of the earth
So God controls mans will but yet needs a man to show his glory, do you see the problem here?

John 9:31   
Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.


Why are people over the world dying and in bondage to darkness, when christ came to promise us life? The above scripture might shed some light on the subject. Please don't take this as a statement though, but let it be revealed.

I hope now my words have challenged your position or at the very least give you a better perspective as to why I believe what I believe.

God bless

[Lefein]

Likewise we are made in God's image.  What that mean's precisely is difficult to say, but at the very least it means we have various aspects of character that God has also.

Sentience/Self-awareness, Will, Emotions, Rationality, Abstract Thought.

[thinktank]

So you propose that Satan operates outside the Will of God?  Satan was created by who?  God.  God created Satan, do you believe that was mistaken when He made Satan?  That He messed up or "things just went wrong?"  Why do we humans love to project their faults onto God?  Why do we project our same weakness, errors, and folly in planning onto God, as if He operates on the same plane we do?


I see you point but I challenge you to ask those questions again and this time think outside the box and hopefully you will understand the seriousness of your position.

[Molly]

We are the masterpiece of His Creation and by dragging us through this realm He gets back something greater than He created.

Although I do think, and I figure you won't agree, that man was meant to learn about good and evil after a certain amount of maturity, and Satan bypassed that plan by offering it to man too soon.

So we split the atom and make a bomb instead of giving electricity to the whole world.   We are not mature enough yet to handle the knowledge.

Bypassed the plan?
NOT A CHANCE, he's but a dog on a leash without any cards up his sleeve.
God's timing, like everything is supremely perfect. No one can usurp His plan, change it or take Him by surprise.

We blow ourselves up because we ate the good and evil without the wisdom of God to cover it and without life (the tree of) we only can reproduce death.

Truth.  People give Satan waaaaaaay too much credit.  Satan is under God's command.  Satan is not some monster running around blowing up God's plans.  Satan has a purpose and God uses Him for the purposes He chooses.

You mean like human sacrifice, for instance?  Like torture?  Like murder?  I'll give Satan credit for all of that and more.  As God said, this stuff didn't even enter his mind.

So you propose that Satan operates outside the Will of God?  Satan was created by who?  God.  God created Satan, do you believe that was mistaken when He made Satan?  That He messed up or "things just went wrong?"  Why do we humans love to project their faults onto God?  Why do we project our same weakness, errors, and folly in planning onto God, as if He operates on the same plane we do? 

If a pharmaceutical company creates a medicine that causes lets say blindness who do we fault, the medicine or the scientist?  Why do we hold the creature rather than the Creator responsible then?  God has a plan, and "is working ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS Will."  Note who Paul states is doing the working, not us, not Satan, God.  God is working.  Sometimes I feel as though we try and equate God to the "The Watchmaker" of Deism.  God doesn't make mistakes.

I think that God took full responsibility for the rebellion of his created beings and the suffering that has caused millions of his children when he sent his Son to die on the cross.  I am not saying God made mistakes.  I am more saying you can't get from here to there, from where we are to where he is taking us, which is his will--the glory that he wants to give us is his true will--without going through some version of this evil age first, given that the angels/ gods had the opportunity and ability to choose rebellion, as does man.

We guide, protect, and love our own children, teach them, hope and pray they will do the right thing, but at some point it is up to them.  I do believe that God will turn evil to good, but I don't believe in a mechanistic universe.  As a believer, he is very much a part of my life on a daily basis.

[Lefein]

When it comes to God, and His will, vs. Man's will...It boils down to only two choices.

Is God Authoritarian? Controlling every single action of man, even determining, and enacting when a man will blink - by the force of his authoritarian will making, or causing that man to blink.

Is God Harmonious?  Anticipating the actions of man, and working through the actions of man flowing harmoniously and directing with subtle oneness the free flowing fluidity of his creation towards his destined goals, using the force of his harmonious will to direct the course as it flows - but letting it flow indeed, working through the flow to achieve the predestined glory of his will, taking all the flow with him into that glory, and allowing the flow to be an honest current.

If God is Authoritarian, it is his fault that we sin, and it is he who needs to repent, and not us.  Because we didn't sin, he sinned through us.  He's in authoritarian control, we had no say in the matter to sin or not.  Grace is not needed, and Christ's act was really an illusion, and vapourous, quite vain really...We don't need to be forgiven for what isn't our fault in the first place.

If God is Harmonious, the scriptures remain consistent, as does the character of God.  Grace is required for when the flow strays, and Grace indeed is available because God works through that flow's straying, having already anticipated it, and made the plans in his will before time even began, so as to ensure that the straying of the sinner would not go to waste, but would only increase the glory of his direction.

God is not helpless of course, and can be Authoritarian at times, he is not bound by the will of man by nature, but chooses to work through it instead, for the most part. God is ever working through the Harmoniousness that is his Will, and on the whole he is ever harmonising the will of man to his own by the means of love, and natural process, natural in the sense that it isn't a constructed facade, or artifice, a performance, a shallow play, or act, but is fluid, natural, and alive.

Afterall, is The Holy Spirit, God in us, not The Living Water?

Suffering is the harmonising of our will, with God's will, towards his ultimate goal; intimate, spiritually mature, glorified children; and being All in All, freely, honestly, in genuine life, love, and truth.

[micah7:9]

Did Adam and Eve eat the cupcake?

It depends, is the glass half empty, or half full?

It would seem to me that they took a nice bite out of Death, which is worse than any bucket of fecal matter.  Then again, I suppose they had to eat something horrendously disgusting and bitter to the stomach before they could realise that the cupcake is much yummier.

They took a big swig of the cow bucket, and never got to eat the cupcake.  But if I may be encouraging...so as not to sound so thoroughly negative about the whole situation...

The fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil, by disobedience they learned the difference...They learned what Evil was.  But they also learned what it was to be Good, and how sweet it is, or will be.  The fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil wasn't just the tree of the knowledge of evil...it was the tree of the knowledge of good.

Adam and Eve knew God, but they never knew how good God is, and until they knew about evil, they'd never be able to understand or know how good God is.

I dont understand this reasoning about death. Joh 12:24  verily, verily, I say to you, if the grain of the wheat, having fallen to the earth, may not die, itself remaineth alone; and if it may die, it doth bear much fruit;
Heb 9:27  and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
My Lord and Saviour has not given me to look at death as "Death, which is worse than any bucket of fecal matter..."

Im sorry you feel that way. Peace and Love Through Jesus

[Lefein]

Death seems to be pretty bad to me.  The sting of Death is sin, and sin is what has lead to every single evil thing that has ever happened in the finite history of the universe.

Every rape, every murder, every theft, every lie, every broken home, and every abortion (a type of murder worse than "murder" in my opinion), and every cruel deed ever done was because of Death.

Death is the absence of Life, God is Life, and so the absence of God is Death - by that reasoning alone it is horrid beyond compare.

Though we may "cease to live in this body" (die in that sense) in order to resurrect to the new...Death (the absence of God/Life), the sting of which is sin, is worse indeed than anything ever to have been.

The word used in John 12:24 for "die" is;

http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=599

While the word for Death, like in Revelation is;

http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2288

[Cardinal]

  I've shared this before, but I was driving and He had me to see myself from up above, in the same situation, ie. driving. He pointed out to me, that as I made choices [in time] regarding my chosen path, He made choices [not limited by time] that made sure I went in the direction He wanted me to go, eventually. He simply put up "roadblocks", washed out roads, created detours, ect., to make me turn in the direction He wanted.

Down here bound by time, it APPEARED that I was making the decisions, but from His perspective, NOT bound by time, He was really calling all the shots, having seen the end from the beginning, and making whatever "adjustments" were needed to bring about the desired ending. He has a great deal to say in there about our expected end as He sees it. So......you do the math..... Blessings....

[thinktank]

I've shared this before, but I was driving and He had me to see myself from up above, in the same situation, ie. driving. He pointed out to me, that as I made choices [in time] regarding my chosen path, He made choices [not limited by time] that made sure I went in the direction He wanted me to go, eventually. He simply put up "roadblocks", washed out roads, created detours, ect., to make me turn in the direction He wanted.

Down here bound by time, it APPEARED that I was making the decisions, but from His perspective, NOT bound by time, He was really calling all the shots, having seen the end from the beginning, and making whatever "adjustments" were needed to bring about the desired ending. He has a great deal to say in there about our expected end as He sees it. So......you do the math..... Blessings....

I believe this, that when we are in Gods will for our life, things like this happen, I call it divine intervention, which is different to divine manipulation.

And throughout time God has done many divine interventions, when his creation steers off track, such as Noahs flood, to end the wickedness in the earth and also intervenes with certain people , such as the apostle Saul>Paul and the death of Christ.