Sin

[Beloved Servant]

Amen.

Ephesians 1:
13 In Whom you also -- on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation -- in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise

[jabcat]

Thanks guys.  

Where do you think the IF factors in, i.e., "if we confess our sins.."?  Perhaps that as believers we will do so as a result of Him working through us?  But then again, it doesn't say when, it says if...

The Christian Bible translates as "If we are continually acknowledging the things that we have done that are wrong, He is going to be trustworthy and just to forgive us for our wrongdoings and make us clean from all injustice."

CLT has "If we should be avowing our sins, He is faithful and just that He may be pardoning us our sins and should be cleansing us from all injustice."

Also, anyone address the "what if I murdered my neighbor" scenario?  Or if you murdered your neighbor, what would you do regarding that sin?  And why, based on what scriptures? 

OK, I'll get out of this discussion a bit and let folks kick it around.  Thanks.

[WhiteWings]

I have heard people say this, "I will forgive them but I won't forget it". Is that true forgiveness? If you forgive someone for something you don't keep it in your mind. God said about Israel, "I will remember their sins no more".

I knew someone would mention that, or a similar verse.
For me it's simple. That verse doesn't exactly mean forget. How can we claim Father has infinite wisdom and at the same time claim He forgets zillions of sins? For me that's incompatible.

I think 'forget' means something like:
- No longer hold it against you.
- Not mention it again.
- Have no harsh feelings about it anymore.
- etc

Well it's not incompatible for for me.
I choose to believe the Scriptures.

Such answers don't work for me David.
You also contradict yourself.
First you write it's compatible. Later you sound much less sure by using the word 'maybe'

Wisdom is the ability to appropriate knowledge.
So perhaps; In His wisdom, not ours, He really CAN DO IT.

Maybe. Or maybe there are some translation or interpretation issues...
I still strongly edge to the last.

[Beloved Servant]

The word was "perhaps" not maybe.
It was a platitude.

[WhiteWings]

But can something be forgiven before it even happens?

Apparently, else Christ or someone else would have to die in the future for all the sins people have comitted since Christ died.

Or it simply means sins are forgiven on the moment they happen because they already are payed for.
I see it a bit like this. When Jesus payed for us on the cross zillions of little bags of money were put in front of the throne of Father.
Everytime a sin is commited Father picks up a little bags and says "Forgiven because I got the payment in My hand"
 

[WhiteWings]

For me repentance comes natural, I believe it not because I am going to hell or any other reason other than to keep me humble and not repeat the same offense, I am not sure I could offend God.
I am convicted by God, or so it seems, so I repent.
Yes I feel guilty if I don't repent.

I think repentance can only come natural. Everything else is just fake.
I feel (sorta) bad for a speeding ticket. But only because it costs me money. Not because I feel I did something wrong.
But if I killed someone by pure accident I would feel bad about it. Even if the police would never figure out I was involved.
That repentance is a personality issue. I think thats'a true repentance from the heart/soul.

Yes I feel guilty if I don't repent.

Perhaps circular reasoning; but if you don't repent for something that's already forgiven you need a lesson in repentance. For me it basicly means Jesus died for things that don't need to be repented for.
Repenting and being grateful for Jesus' blood isn't a contradiction for me.
Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi James...  

Thanks guys.  

Where do you think the IF factors in, i.e., "if we confess our sins.."?  Perhaps that as believers we will do so as a result of Him working through us?  But then again, it doesn't say when, it says if...

The Christian Bible translates as "If we are continually acknowledging the things that we have done that are wrong, He is going to be trustworthy and just to forgive us for our wrongdoings and make us clean from all injustice."

CLT has "If we should be avowing our sins, He is faithful and just that He may be pardoning us our sins and should be cleansing us from all injustice."

Also, anyone address the "what if I murdered my neighbor" scenario?  Or if you murdered your neighbor, what would you do regarding that sin?  And why, based on what scriptures?  

OK, I'll get out of this discussion a bit and let folks kick it around.  Thanks.

This is another of the "might" things...  Like, John 3:17 -- that the world through Him, ..."MIGHT"... be saved.  

Does this mean that the SAVING of the WORLD in "in question", because the word "MIGHT" appears in this verse?  Or is the deal DONE, and the word "MIGHT" is a VEHICULAR designation of surety... as opposed to an unsurety?

When we INCORRECTLY observe this word "IF"... then it transposes the "cleansing" of SIN, as due to OUR deed of confessing, ...as opposed to HIS HOLY impression on us that TRULY brought forth that confession.  

Phil 2:10-11 --- EVERY knee shall bow, and tongue CONFESS... in the which is the "TAKING AWAY of SIN".

In the confession of CHRIST is the cleansing, NOT due to us, but due to HIM, for He is the Lamb which has TAKEN it AWAY... John 1:29 -- and it is HE and HIS INFLUENCE upon our hearts, that causes that confession to come forth, that HE "might" take it away!  

...willieH 

[WhiteWings]

Agree with a lot of what you've said WW.

Heretic! 

[Paul Hazelwood]

I thought confession was agreeing/admitting.

Thinking of the scriptural aspects, specific thoughts on this verse anyone?

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.  I John 1:9

Yes it is, but what does not confessing mean?   It really means you are trying to make it appear you have done nothing wrong.

1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The verse you posted doesn't say we must ask for forgivness it assures us what confessing completes.

We are traditionally taught that our sins cause Gods displeasure in us, so confessing has become  this idea that we must appease God with our confession and ask for his mercy of forgivness.   In reality confessing is the means by which we overcome.

[Cardinal]

Heb 9:12  nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.

  As always, the Tabernacle pattern is being discussed here. This scripture is talking about the Day of Atonement, in which the High Priest went in ONCE A YEAR, and offered up a sacrifice for himself first, and then for the people.

The people were STILL required to bring their sacrifices throughout the year, including sin offerings, and no one was allowed to come empty handed.

The animal flesh is symbolic of our carnal beastly natures (lust, covetousness, pride, ect.) that we are supposed to offer up in repentance from dead works (works of the flesh and not of the Spirit).

The pattern never changes, our perception of it changes as we mature, in that we see that the natural/outward manifestation was to "rehearse" the spiritual/inward working of the Holy Spirit that was to come, as He does the works in us and thru us. Blessings.....

[jabcat]

In the confession of CHRIST is the cleansing, NOT due to us, but due to HIM, for He is the Lamb which has TAKEN it AWAY... John 1:29 -- and it is HE and HIS INFLUENCE upon our hearts, that causes that confession to come forth, that HE "might" take it away! 

...willieH  [/i][/b]

Makes sense Willi, thanks.

[SQ]

I had mentioned earlier I repent daily, I have gotten repentance and confession confused.
 I confess daily about  good things that happen and when I fall short.
 Just talking on a daily basis. 

[jabcat]

The people were STILL required to bring their sacrifices throughout the year, including sin offerings, and no one was allowed to come empty handed.

The pattern never changes

Jesus said if we forgive others, our trespasses would be forgiven, and if we don't, they won't.  He also talked of turning over to debtors until the price was exacted/paid, as well as few stripes/many stripes.  

Since He said that if we don't forgive others then our trespasses won't be forgiven either, I'm wondering how it's possible that all our future sins are automatically already forgiven without asking forgiveness - or at least confessing them - thereby activating specific forgiveness.  I'm not quite seeing it.  It seems to me that although the provision has been made and things will ultimately come to pass, we either confess our sins now or will definitely do so later.  I mean we talk about the cleansing Lake of Fire vs. not being hurt of the 2nd death etc.  Seems to me that saying everything's already completely taken care of sort of negates all that.  Again, obviously not saying He sends us to an eternal torment, but that there's some corrective discipline that takes place.  Thinking here...

[jabcat]

In the confession of CHRIST is the cleansing, NOT due to us, but due to HIM, for He is the Lamb which has TAKEN it AWAY... John 1:29 -- and it is HE and HIS INFLUENCE upon our hearts, that causes that confession to come forth, that HE "might" take it away! 

...willieH  [/i][/b]

Makes sense Willi, thanks.

and, it seems like you're saying there's still a "future"/yet-to-occur tense involved here...like I said, the provision's made, good as done/will be done, but there's still confessing to do.  Is that right?  That's how I see it.  God ensures it, it's Him working in us, but there's still a process occurring and it's not all "automatically" taken care of.   

[WhiteWings]

Jesus said if we forgive others, our trespasses would be forgiven, and if we don't, they won't.  He also talked of turning over to debtors until the price was exacted/paid, as well as few stripes/many stripes.  

Since He said that if we don't forgive others then our trespasses won't be forgiven either, I'm wondering how it's possible that all our future sins are automatically already forgiven without asking forgiveness - or at least confessing them - thereby activating specific forgiveness.  I'm not quite seeing it.  It seems to me that although the provision has been made and things will ultimately come to pass, we either confess our sins now or will definitely do so later.  I mean we talk about the cleansing Lake of Fire vs. not being hurt of the 2nd death etc.  Seems to me that saying everything's already completely taken care of sort of negates all that.

^KJVRom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

I think it's connected to that verse. Many are not doing that now so obviously it must be set for a later date.
As for sin already forgiven. I see that slightly different. Because the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world all sin will be forgiven. So from that pov it's a done deal. It was/is a promise/prophecy. But that doesn't mean it's already done.
The birth of Jesus was also a prophecy. It was a fact back then that Jesus would be born. But it is also a fact that He was born after the OT people that prophecised about Him.

Similary I think it's the same with sins. we have to confess before they are forgiven. If we then get beaten with a zillion or no stripes at all is a different matter.

[jabcat]

Jesus said if we forgive others, our trespasses would be forgiven, and if we don't, they won't.  He also talked of turning over to debtors until the price was exacted/paid, as well as few stripes/many stripes.  

Since He said that if we don't forgive others then our trespasses won't be forgiven either, I'm wondering how it's possible that all our future sins are automatically already forgiven without asking forgiveness - or at least confessing them - thereby activating specific forgiveness.  I'm not quite seeing it.  It seems to me that although the provision has been made and things will ultimately come to pass, we either confess our sins now or will definitely do so later.  I mean we talk about the cleansing Lake of Fire vs. not being hurt of the 2nd death etc.  Seems to me that saying everything's already completely taken care of sort of negates all that.

^KJVRom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

I think it's connected to that verse. Many are not doing that now so obviously it must be set for a later date.
As for sin already forgiven. I see that slightly different. Because the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world all sin will be forgiven. So from that pov it's a done deal. It was/is a promise/prophecy. But that doesn't mean it's already done.
The birth of Jesus was also a prophecy. But it is a fact that Jesus would be born. But it was also a fact that He was born after the OT people that prophecised about Him.

Similary I think it's the same with sins. we have to confess before they are forgiven. If we then get beaten with a zillion or no stripes at all is a different matter.

Almost EXACTLY the same way I see it.  Uh-oh, we're thinking alike WW.  Don't let that scare you too much  .

[WhiteWings]

Don't let that scare you too much  

I don't scare easily but now...

[WhiteWings]

It would be much easier if the NT would have be clearly split into 2 parts.
Jew/Gentile. Pre and after crucifixion. Etc
I'm not sure but I get the impression some people in this thread see:

Jesus said if we forgive others, our trespasses would be forgiven, and if we don't, they won't.  He also talked of turning over to debtors until the price was exacted/paid, as well as few stripes/many stripes.

as a command that sorta expired after Jesus was risen from the dead.

[Cardinal]

The people were STILL required to bring their sacrifices throughout the year, including sin offerings, and no one was allowed to come empty handed.

The pattern never changes

Jesus said if we forgive others, our trespasses would be forgiven, and if we don't, they won't.  He also talked of turning over to debtors until the price was exacted/paid, as well as few stripes/many stripes.  

Since He said that if we don't forgive others then our trespasses won't be forgiven either, I'm wondering how it's possible that all our future sins are automatically already forgiven without asking forgiveness - or at least confessing them - thereby activating specific forgiveness.  I'm not quite seeing it.  It seems to me that although the provision has been made and things will ultimately come to pass, we either confess our sins now or will definitely do so later.  I mean we talk about the cleansing Lake of Fire vs. not being hurt of the 2nd death etc.  Seems to me that saying everything's already completely taken care of sort of negates all that.  Again, obviously not saying He sends us to an eternal torment, but that there's some corrective discipline that takes place.  Thinking here...

  It goes along with the tense of salvation; we are saved, we're being saved, we shall be saved. If we are pressing in, we are continually having the light separated from the darkness IN US. THIS is the harvest; what is being harvested is CHRIST IN US, the good seed of Matt. 13, the hope of glory.

He is being raised up/resurrected IN US. What Christendom lost was the understanding that He came into all men as the light. So if He is there in our "tomb", He MUST resurrect because it is written, and the Word cannot be broken. Blessings.....

[CHB]

As Dallas mentioned in another thread, I think it is about KNOWING that all is forgiven. The world was saved before the foundation of the world, most just don't have that knowledge now. Everything is a done deal but the process is in progress.

We were predestined before we were born to understand certain things (Eph. 1:4-12). Does that mean the rest of the world won't be saved? Are they not just like we are? They just don't understand it at this time.

(Verse 7) "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the FORGIVNESS OF SINS, according to the riches of his grace". We were sold under sin but Christ bought us back.

What does redemption mean? It doesn't say we are being redeemed, it says we HAVE redemption. (Heb. 9:12) having OBTAINED eternal redemption. (Heb. 10:14) "For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOR EVER them that are sanctified".

Does this mean that not all are sanctified?  (John 17:19) "And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might BE SANCTIFIED THROUGH THE TRUTH".

If we died when Christ died, were resurrected when Christ was resurrected and have sit down with him in the heavenlies why do we need to ask for forgiveness anymore?  If we are dead in Christ. We have already gone through the second death and LOF. 

CHB

   

[Syndicated]

The world was saved before the foundation of the world, most just don't have that knowledge now. Everything is a done deal but the process is in progress.

We were predestined before we were born to understand certain things (Eph. 1:4-12). Does that mean the rest of the world won't be saved? Are they not just like we are? They just don't understand it at this time.

 

1 Cor 15:20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
   21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
   22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
   23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
   24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
   25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
   26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

If we died when Christ died, were resurrected when Christ was resurrected and have sit down with him in the heavenlies why do we need to ask for forgiveness anymore?

IMO - We don't need to ask for forgiveness anymore, forgiveness is ours before we needed it.  However we do need to aknowledge when we do something harmful to others and ourselves so we can repent from it and not do it again.

As Dallas pointed out in another thread...

1 John 3:6 "No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him

If we are in Him what would we need to ask forgiveness for if we don't sin anymore?  Pretty powerful stuff!