Author Topic: Sin  (Read 3767 times)

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Online jabcat

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Sin
« on: April 22, 2010, 02:24:06 AM »
PaulH you posted the following, and it got me thinking again about something I've thought about before -

"Actually, the aspect of forgivness is often misunderstood.  You believe that you must go to God for forgiveness everytime you drink, but you have already been forgiven.

Go to him for comfort and strength to have power over your flesh.   The flesh is what you are battling, you are not in a battle for your soul concerning your drinking."
-------------
I've wondered several things about this, and heard multiple beliefs.  Without thinking it through/researching a lot, let me throw out a few thoughts folks can follow up on.

Jesus died for all our sins, past, present, future.  Some say there is no more sin, I personally don't think that's true - look around, read the news.  However, although Apostle Paul mentioned sin, I don't know of anyplace he talked about believers asking for forgiveness for sin.  In fact, he said he battled sin, but that it was no longer him that did it.

Peter(?) said if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us. (Post-cross, but to Jews/Jewish Christians, as some say, doesn't apply to grafted in gentiles?)

Jesus said if we don't forgive others, then our trespasses won't be forgiven.  (PRE-cross, does that matter in this instance?)

Ap. Paul said to not continue in sin so that grace may abound.

If there either a) is no sin (I don't believe that) or b) we don't need forgiveness of "new" sins, they're already forgiven, then what about this scenario?  I get angry, hit my neighbor in the head with a stick, and kill him.  I don't believe I would "go to hell" for that, but what are folks' thoughts on "where I stand", what I need to do?  My current belief is, I confess that sin and ask for forgiveness, and I'm forgiven.  Still natural consequences, but God has forgiven and forgotten - no further "debt to pay" regarding God (Jesus paid the debt anyway, right?.)  Was that "not me, it was the sin dwelling in me", or some other scenario?

Thoughts on all this (with solid scriptural backing please  :bigGrin:) ?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 02:31:19 AM by jabcat »

Online jabcat

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Re: Sin
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2010, 02:36:06 AM »
Some say with unconfessed/unforgiven sin, people go to hell.

Some say with unconfessed/unforgiven sin, salvation not compromised but fellowship with Jesus is "strained", loss of joy, contentment.

Others say with sin and disobedience, loss of "overcoming/conquering", so loss of inner court service/sonship....

Others say don't worry about it... :mshock:

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Sin
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2010, 02:43:28 AM »
Ephesians 1:
13 In Whom you also -- on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation -- in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise

However, these two points you raise:
  • loss of joy, contentment
  • loss of "overcoming/conquering", so loss of inner court service/sonship
Ring true to my spirit.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Sin
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2010, 02:48:29 AM »
Although Sonship is beyond the veil, in the Holy of Holies, not the inner court.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 03:04:02 AM by Beloved Servant »

Online jabcat

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Re: Sin
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2010, 02:57:55 AM »
Ephesians 1:
in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise

Amen David.  "He Who has started a good work in you will complete it".  

IMO, the end result is ultimately guaranteed.  It's the process, responsibility, and consquences I wonder about - you know, wide road/narrow path;  not hurt of 2nd death/saved as by fire;  few stripes/many stripes;  faithful servant/turned over to satan, etc.  I've always felt convicted to confess/ask forgiveness, believing that was God working in me.  Others seem to have other ideas, and I'm interested in scriptural insights.

Good word.  :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 03:32:21 AM by jabcat »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Sin
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2010, 07:48:04 AM »

James,  I may write more later,  but one thing I want to make clear is that what I wrote is not suggesting we are without sin.  It is mainly getting past the emotional idea of Gods gonna get us if we don't appease him approach to spirituality.

This is what people do when they screw up and then get the guilt complex and ask forgiveness from God then go out and do it again.   There is nothing spiritual or real about it, it is all a mind game within ones self to self medicate.

It is about understanding that our actions are about understanding that forgivness or not, nothing prevents us from reaping what we sow.  For instance,  God may not punish me for drinking, but that will not prevent me from reaping the consequenses of facing the reality concerning the people I hurt because of it.

If I am unforgiven, then I am damned, the fact that I am not damned means I am forgiven,  that forgivness will not prevent me from getting pulled over when I'm doing 13 over.   ;)





Offline CHB

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Re: Sin
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2010, 06:30:00 PM »
Just my  :2c:.

I use to think I had to ask God for forgiveness all the time. Until one day a friend ask my forgiveness for something that we had already settled and I had forgotten about. I got to thinking how we must frustrate God by asking forgiveness for sin when Christ has already taken care of it. If I am understanding correctly the purpose of Christ  dying on the tree for the sins of the whole world, which I believe covered past present and future sins, then I don't have to keep asking for forgiveness. I think there is a difference between asking for forgiveness and feeling sorry for something.

I always thought this is what this verse was about. (Heb. 10:26) "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins". There was only one sacrifice for sins and that was Jesus, so there is no more sacrifice for sins, there is no more need for a sacrifice.  Others might see this verse as pertaining to something else?

When my friend apoligized and asked for forgiveness for something that we had already settled, it just brought back the remembrance of the whole thing which I didn't want to remember. I wondered if asking God to forgive us over and over for things, if we aren't crucifying Christ all over again? Everytime someone sinned in the OT they offered a sacrifice but Christ was our sacrifice, so we shouldn't have to ask for forgiveness over and over, we have already been forgiven.

CHB

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Sin
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2010, 06:46:41 PM »
CHB,

With asking for forgiveness you at least admit there is something that needs to be forgiven.
I think that's a headstart on those who don't even know soemthing has to be forgiven.

I think things still have to be forgiven. Or payed in full. Jesus already deposited the payment so it won't cost us.

I think better would be instead of asking for forgivenes is thanking for forgiveness already received.
But that doesn't really sound ok to me either...

KJVLuk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

Quote
When my friend apoligized and asked for forgiveness for something that we had already settled, it just brought back the remembrance of the whole thing which I didn't want to remember.
That can't really compared to Father's perfect memory.
He forgives but never forgets.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Sin
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2010, 07:24:08 PM »

Psalm 103:
especially verse 12;
As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6zdihmwy1M

SQ

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Re: Sin
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2010, 07:53:56 PM »
Some say with unconfessed/unforgiven sin, people go to hell.

Some say with unconfessed/unforgiven sin, salvation not compromised but fellowship with Jesus is "strained", loss of joy, contentment.

Others say with sin and disobedience, loss of "overcoming/conquering", so loss of inner court service/sonship....

Others say don't worry about it... :mshock:
For me repentance comes natural, I believe it not because I am going to hell or any other reason other than to keep me humble and not repeat the same offense, I am not sure I could offend God.
I am convicted by God, or so it seems, so I repent.
Yes I feel guilty if I don't repent.

Offline CHB

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Re: Sin
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2010, 08:38:47 PM »
CHB,

With asking for forgiveness you at least admit there is something that needs to be forgiven.
I think that's a headstart on those who don't even know soemthing has to be forgiven.

But hasn't God already forgiven us through the death of Jesus?

Quote from: WhiteWings
I think things still have to be forgiven. Or payed in full. Jesus already deposited the payment so it won't cost us.


Did Jesus only die for our past sins? I think we have to come to the realization that things have already been forgiven.

Quote from: WhiteWings
I think better would be instead of asking for forgivenes is thanking for forgiveness already received.
But that doesn't really sound ok to me either...

This sounds better to me.

Quote from: WhiteWings

KJVLuk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

Isn't this true even today?  Most don't know or understand things, if they did they wouldn't do it.

Quote from: WhiteWings
Quote
When my friend apoligized and asked for forgiveness for something that we had already settled, it just brought back the remembrance of the whole thing which I didn't want to remember.
That can't really compared to Father's perfect memory.
He forgives but never forgets.

I have heard people say this, "I will forgive them but I won't forget it". Is that true forgiveness? If you forgive someone for something you don't keep it in your mind. God said about Israel, "I will remember their sins no more".

CHB

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Sin
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2010, 09:27:42 PM »


Isaiah 43:25 (NASB)
25 "I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins.

Jeremiah 31 (Message Bible)
I'll wipe the slate clean for each of them. I'll forget they ever sinned!" God's Decree.

Hebrews 8: (Weymouth)
12 Because I will be merciful to their wrongdoings, and their sins I will remember no longer.'"

Hebrews 10: (Weymouth)
17 He adds, "And their sins and offences I will remember no longer."

Offline willieH

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Re: Sin
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2010, 09:53:32 PM »
willieH: Hi brothers... :hithere:

Ephesians 1:
in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise

Amen David.  "He Who has started a good work in you will complete it".  

IMO, the end result is ultimately guaranteed.  It's the process, responsibility, and consquences I wonder about - you know, wide road/narrow path;  not hurt of 2nd death/saved as by fire;  few stripes/many stripes;  faithful servant/turned over to satan, etc.  I've always felt convicted to confess/ask forgiveness, believing that was God working in me.  Others seem to have other ideas, and I'm interested in scriptural insights.

Good word.  :thumbsup:

Good stuff guys... GOD is WORKING ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11 -- so concerns as to our individual "parts" in that process, are that which is being revealed WITHIN the process, which is being WORKED by HIM...

As I see it, ...the LARGEST hurdle in the pathway of UNDERSTANDING, ...is ourselves...

Once we arrive at the "place" in time where we LET GO of ourselves, and COMPLETELY submit to HIM... then we can see that WE are not the "deciders" of our individual pathways (which have to do with one another), including both the journey to SUBMISSION ...and... the submission itself!

Which IS in fact --- the revelation of the  KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL from the Heart of YHVH God which is DECLARED by His WORD, ...and that HE is moving "His BODY" (all men) through this realm, according to HIS WILL... Which revelation of said knowledge is EMERGENT from Him...  and which knowledge CONCLUDES in Him... and which knowledge (after it is revealed), is SURPASSED by Him... the ALPHA and OMEGA.

If we remember that the END... IS... the BEGINNING -- and the BEGINNING ...IS... the END... Then we shall find comfort as we endure the process from one to the other... for the "ORIGIN" of that process  ...IS... the same as the "DESTINY" of that process... and is indeed, ENCASED by it, ...JESUS CHRIST... the WORD which "KNOWS" -- Gen 3:22 -- the knowledge and indeed is REVEALING it.

When one (lets go and) recognizes that GOD is unchanging... then IN that STILLNESS (of letting go), then KNOWS, that whatever BEGINS -- (emerges from Him) -- is ALWAYS emergent from Him... and whatever ENDS -- returns to its emergent point,  ALWAYS ends in Him where it BEGAN...  For the TWO are ONE and the SAME... (beginning & ending).

Rev 1:8 --  I AM, the ALPHA,  ...AND... the OMEGA, the BEGINNING ...AND... the END... the Lord, which IS, and which WAS, and which IS TO COME, the Almighty

Whatever "BEGINS"... "begins IN HIM" -- Col 1:16 -- John 1:3 -- and whatever "ENDS"... "ends IN HIM" -- Heb 12:2 -- Heb 13:8

EVERYTHING is emergent from Him -- Col 1:16 -- (which does NOT CHANGE)... and EVERYTHING culminates in Him -- 1 Cor 15:28 -- Col 1:20 -- (which does NOT CHANGE)... within [the "CIRCLE" of] ETERNITY which has NO BEGINNING and NO END...  

That which is "in between" (the "beginning and end") is the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL" which is SURPASSED by the LOVE of CHRIST -- Eph 3:19 -- which borders both the "beginning and end" of the KNOWLEDGE, ...of which we are all PART...

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 10:00:42 PM by willieH »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Sin
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2010, 10:17:04 PM »
Did Jesus only die for our past sins? I think we have to come to the realization that things have already been forgiven.
I think there is a misunderstanding on what I was trying to say.
I'll cover my tracks by selectively answering your questions  :winkgrin:
Nah, seriously; I think the part I quoted might answer all your questions.

Jesus payed for all sins. For me that means:
- past sins -> People that lived/sinned before Jesus "payed in full"
- future sins -> I started sinning centuries after Jesus died

So when we sin a price has to be paid. Jesus already deposited the payments on all of our bankaccounts.
So yes things are already forgiven (payed for). But can something be forgiven before it even happens?
I think I'm making things to complicated again. Let's just say Jesus saved us  :happy3:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Sin
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2010, 10:22:15 PM »
I have heard people say this, "I will forgive them but I won't forget it". Is that true forgiveness? If you forgive someone for something you don't keep it in your mind. God said about Israel, "I will remember their sins no more".
I knew someone would mention that, or a similar verse. :laughing7:
For me it's simple. That verse doesn't exactly mean forget. How can we claim Father has infinite wisdom and at the same time claim He forgets zillions of sins? For me that's incompatible.

I think 'forget' means something like:
- No longer hold it against you.
- Not mention it again.
- Have no harsh feelings about it anymore.
- etc
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Sin
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2010, 12:57:05 AM »
I have heard people say this, "I will forgive them but I won't forget it". Is that true forgiveness? If you forgive someone for something you don't keep it in your mind. God said about Israel, "I will remember their sins no more".
I knew someone would mention that, or a similar verse. :laughing7:
For me it's simple. That verse doesn't exactly mean forget. How can we claim Father has infinite wisdom and at the same time claim He forgets zillions of sins? For me that's incompatible.

I think 'forget' means something like:
- No longer hold it against you.
- Not mention it again.
- Have no harsh feelings about it anymore.
- etc


Well it's not incompatible for for me.
I choose to believe the Scriptures.

Wisdom is the ability to appropriate knowledge.
So perhaps; In His wisdom, not ours, He really CAN DO IT.

Offline CHB

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Re: Sin
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2010, 02:17:05 AM »
Quote from: WhiteWings
But can something be forgiven before it even happens?

Apparently, else Christ or someone else would have to die in the future for all the sins people have comitted since Christ died.
 

CHB

Online jabcat

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Re: Sin
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2010, 05:16:44 AM »
Some say with unconfessed/unforgiven sin, people go to hell.

Some say with unconfessed/unforgiven sin, salvation not compromised but fellowship with Jesus is "strained", loss of joy, contentment.

Others say with sin and disobedience, loss of "overcoming/conquering", so loss of inner court service/sonship....

Others say don't worry about it... :mshock:
For me repentance comes natural, I believe it not because I am going to hell or any other reason other than to keep me humble and not repeat the same offense, I am not sure I could offend God.
I am convicted by God, or so it seems, so I repent.
Yes I feel guilty if I don't repent.

Yep, me too SQ.  I don't feel at peace until I've confessed it - then instant relief.  Hmmm

I think I understand what you're saying Paul, thanks.

Agree with a lot of what you've said WW.  

Don't mean to miss anyone, but CHB, although I still believe in asking for forgiveness, another option I'm open to - which I think fits with what you're saying - is that I heard a preacher one time say that confessing our sin means we acknowledge it;  basically agreeing with God that it's wrong.  He was actually a Baptist preacher, and said that a number of years ago, but it stuck with me.  Is it possible that was Ap. Paul's approach?  Not begging and begging for forgiveness (as I said, I don't know of anyplace Paul said to do that or that he did that);  but because of his identification with Christ and His desire to please His Father, it bothered him and he admitted it, agreed with God that it was sin, rather than just accept it or relish it and "continue in sin so grace would abound".  Maybe that's not only a byproduct of the spiritual new birth, but also part of a believer's "progress"...thinking, suggesting...still interested in scriptural examination of the issue.  

I agree regarding the scriptures Dave.  There's "an answer" if all the scriptures on the subject are rightly divided...but without that and the Spirit's revelation of such, there seems to be sort of multiple possibilities.   :scratchhead: 
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 05:32:03 AM by jabcat »

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Sin
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2010, 05:21:52 AM »
I just know when I'm walking according to His will.
And conversely, I know when I'm not.
It's gotten quite simple.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Sin
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2010, 06:00:49 AM »

Yep, me too SQ.  I don't feel at peace until I've confessed it - then instant relief.  Hmmm


Confession is a different matter than forgiveness,  confession is putting your burdens on God which is what He wants us to do.


Online jabcat

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Re: Sin
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2010, 06:09:00 AM »
I thought confession was agreeing/admitting.

Thinking of the scriptural aspects, specific thoughts on this verse anyone?

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.  I John 1:9

Online jabcat

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Re: Sin
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2010, 06:13:22 AM »
Yeah,, found these defs, Paul.  Maybe there are more/others...

conĚfess   
1.to acknowledge or avow (a fault, crime, misdeed, weakness, etc.) by way of revelation.
2.to own or admit as true: I must confess that I haven't read the book.
3.to declare or acknowledge (one's sins), esp. to god or a priest in order to obtain absolution.
4.(of a priest) to hear the confession of (a person).
5.to acknowledge one's belief or faith in; declare adherence to.

I can kind'a see what you're saying in #'s 1 and 2 (acknowledge a weakness/admit as true).  Still, anyone, what are your thoughts on the I John verse in regards to sin?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 06:23:55 AM by jabcat »

Zeek

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Re: Sin
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2010, 06:31:16 AM »
....past present and future sins.



Heb 9:15  And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Sin
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2010, 06:37:57 AM »
Well, if we start at verse 8:
"If we should be saying that we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
Then verse 9 implies that we are constantly washed.
It is a present tense.
Active and alive.

Zeek

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Re: Sin
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2010, 06:41:20 AM »
Well, if we start at verse 8:
"If we should be saying that we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
Then verse 9 implies that we are constantly washed.
It is a present tense.
Active and alive.

Heb 9:12  nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.