Saved

[jabcat]

After I'd posted the "2 salvations" I wished I had said instead "2 different things", but I had left for awhile - because that "3 salvation" concept is something I'm just exploring, as I indicated earlier.  But I do believe, at the minimum, there are different things being discussed.  Salvation by grace not works, and then rewards based on diligence.

So yes, I believe there are those who are believers who are less diligent than other believers, and that it's important to make those distinction (working on it, no expert) - and if we don't then we have what appears to be contradictions - which IMO, cannot be.    

[micah7:9]

After I'd posted the "2 salvations" I wished I had said instead "2 different things", but I had left for awhile - because that "3 salvation" concept is something I'm just exploring, as I indicated earlier.  But I do believe, at the minimum, there are different things being discussed.  Salvation by grace not works, and then rewards based on diligence.

So yes, I believe there are those who are believers who are less diligent than other believers, and that it's important to make those distinction (working on it, no expert) - and if we don't then we have what appears to be contradictions - which IMO, cannot be.   

" there are different things being discussed.  Salvation by grace not works, and then rewards based on diligence."
I cannot fathom why you reason a difference in saved/salvation by Grace and you exclude works, like works would cause one not to be as saved or mess of the chances?

"So yes, I believe there are those who are believers who are less diligent than other believers.."
Now how can one know that?

[jabcat]

"Note - I am NOT saying this is 100% without question exact doctrine.  I do think it has a lot of merit, some good potential for learning, and good for discussion.   "

..and now soul salvation.

Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls [psuchas]. Js. 1:21

But we are not of them who draw back to perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul [psuchEs]. Hebrews 10:39

Contrast with;

you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit [pneuma] may be saved in the day of the Lord.  I Corinthians 5:5     

[jabcat]

After I'd posted the "2 salvations" I wished I had said instead "2 different things", but I had left for awhile - because that "3 salvation" concept is something I'm just exploring, as I indicated earlier.  But I do believe, at the minimum, there are different things being discussed.  Salvation by grace not works, and then rewards based on diligence.

So yes, I believe there are those who are believers who are less diligent than other believers, and that it's important to make those distinction (working on it, no expert) - and if we don't then we have what appears to be contradictions - which IMO, cannot be.   

" there are different things being discussed.  Salvation by grace not works, and then rewards based on diligence."
I cannot fathom why you reason a difference in saved/salvation by Grace and you exclude works, like works would cause one not to be as saved or mess of the chances?

"So yes, I believe there are those who are believers who are less diligent than other believers.."
Now how can one know that?

\

Brother, Paul said specifically it was NOT of works.

And "how can one know"?  I only have to look at my own life.  I was visited miraculously by the Holy Spirit and given the faith to call on Jesus for salvation.  During that time I've been lax at times, not really caring much, while at other times more obedient, yielded, "on fire for God", etc.     Just look around.  I know many people who have believed/called on Jesus for salvation of the spirit (that's what the Bible says gets one saved).   Some appear worldly/carnal, while others self-deny, show the fruit of the Spirit, etc.

[micah7:9]

"So yes, I believe there are those who are believers who are less diligent than other believers, and that it's important to make those distinction (working on it, no expert) - and if we don't then we have what appears to be contradictions - which IMO, cannot be.     "

Do you believe that if the Bible was taught as to the Word of God rather than the doctrines of men, that perhaps there would be more souls running for the prize of the High calling?

1Co 9:24  have ye not known that those running in a race--all indeed run, but one doth receive the prize? so run ye, that ye may obtain;
1Co 9:25  and every one who is striving, is in all things temperate; these, indeed, then, that a corruptible crown they may receive, but we an incorruptible;
1Co 9:26  I, therefore, thus run, not as uncertainly, thus I fight, as not beating air;
1Co 9:27  but I chastise my body, and bring it into servitude, lest by any means, having preached to others--I myself may become disapproved.

You gave this quote as from Micah, "Quote from: micah7:9 on Today at 05:45:06 PM

    "Note - I am NOT saying this is 100% without question exact doctrine.  I do think it has a lot of merit, some good potential for learning, and good for discussion.   "

    ..and now soul salvation. "

I cannot find where I said that? Found it but it was you my friend that posted it:
jabcat
Mod
*Re: Saved
« Reply #90 on: Today at 05:18:14 PM »
   Reply with quote
Note - I am NOT saying this is 100% without question exact doctrine.  I do think it has a lot of merit, some good potential for learning, and good for discussion.   


Information from various sources, including Claudia Miclaus and Lyn Mize

[jabcat]

"Note - I am NOT saying this is 100% without question exact doctrine.  I do think it has a lot of merit, some good potential for learning, and good for discussion.   "

Im going back to read the half or less than half, but all I can say is I can really understand why people want less and less of The Bible. Religion alone is a blur and nothing more that rituals and formulas, theologians come along and stir beliefs up even more, so I am not understanding.
Jer 10:21  For the shepherds, have become brutish, And Yahweh, have they not sought,—For this cause, have they not prospered, And, all their flock, is scattered.
 So I now we have Rapture, soul sleep, spiritual death, glorified and spiritual [bodies],and now soul salvation. All of which I see but I am amazed most of the time at the teachings the church pulls up to explain what the church has decided the Bible says. Example: When a soul dies it goes to heaven or paradise or should you be a bad soul, then you got hell or purgatory.
But I cant find out where in the Bible its tells me this?

[jabcat]

micah, my friend, I'm not sure I understand your statement about teaching the scriptures vs. doctrine of men.  That's exactly what I'm personally trying to do, see what the scriptures say beyond our "usual" reading.  Sometimes others have insight into that.  I don't just take what they say without question, as the Holy Spirit is to be our "real" Teacher.

Trying to understand and reconcile the scrips, IMO, doesn't always just come easily, and I know very little.  But let me ask you this;  if the Bible in one place says    "you're saved by grace not works, it's a gift";  then in another place says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling";  then says something along the lines of "working/hoping that I may attain" something in the future (paraphrase);   doesn't that indicate there's more than an "ordinary, surface reading" might show?  One person can take part of it and say, well, it's only grace.  Another can say, well, it takes works.  While another can say we're already saved, and another, no, we're going to be saved - and ALL pull out one or two scriptures to "prove" their point.  To me, all those differerent scriptures means there's either "more than I'd previously assumed" - perhaps by that tradition of which you speak - or I'm not understanding something, because the scriptures cannot contradict.  Only my understanding can fall short and cause me confusion, not the scriptures (and believe me, I've done it).  Trying to learn here.   

[micah7:9]

Again I must question why do you find two
"The elect; "He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will…." (Eph. 1:4–5)    IMO, this is where the scripture comes in, "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."

2 different salvations [edit] things.  One a gift to the elect, "those that are believing" (and all the rest later), the other a reward for yielding to God's good works through them (overcomers)."

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, to the saints who are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2  Grace to you, and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ!

Eph 1:3  Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who did bless us in every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4  according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love,
Eph 1:5 having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Eph 1:6  to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He did make us accepted in the beloved,
Eph 1:7  in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the remission of the trespasses, according to the riches of His grace,
Eph 1:8  in which He did abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
Eph 1:9  having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself,
Eph 1:10  in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth--in him;
Eph 1:11  in whom also we did obtain an inheritance, being foreordained according to the purpose of Him who the all things is working according to the counsel of His will,
Eph 1:12  for our being to the praise of His glory, even those who did first hope in the Christ,
Eph 1:13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth--the good news of your salvation--in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise,
Eph 1:14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory.

Do you really believe that when the Father draws or drags a soul to His Son Jesus Christ, that that souls is saying," Wow, Glory I'm saved, now all I have to do is sit and wait. I'm IN!"
Or do you believe that soul when called, who has heard the Gospel is not going to get in the race for the Prize?

[jabcat]

" thus I fight, as not beating air; [/b]
1Co 9:27  but I chastise my body, and bring it into servitude, lest by any means, having preached to others--I myself may become disapproved.

And that's the point.  What prize is he talking about, since he earlier said he's saved by grace and works has nothing to do with it.

[jabcat]

Again I must question why do you find two

two what?

Do you really believe that when the Father draws or drags a soul to His Son Jesus Christ, that that souls is saying," Wow, Glory I'm saved, now all I have to do is sit and wait. I'm IN!"
Or do you believe that soul when called, who has heard the Gospel is not going to get in the race for the Prize?

Maybe not consciously.  But maybe their lot is not to be an overcomer, or for whatever reason they don't mature (I don't have all those answers to all those possibilities) so although they have been given the faith to believe on Jesus as Savior, they don't grow, they neglect to pray, stay wrapped up in things of the world, etc., so they never progress beyond "call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved".

At this point are we just debating and trying to either "resist or win", or are we really trying to hear each other to edification?   I don't want to just "lock horns", and no, we don't have to divide and have our own denominations      

[eaglesway]

Note - I am NOT saying this is 100% without question exact doctrine.  I do think it has a lot of merit, some good potential for learning, and good for discussion.   


Information from various sources, including C Miclaus and L Mize

Intro:  The Word of God speaks about the salvation of man in three tenses:  past, present, and future.  Christians have been saved;  Christians are being saved;  and Christians will be saved.  In Ephesians 2:8,9 of the Holy Bible, salvation is described as being a past, completed act.  1 Corinthians 1:18 states that salvation is a present, continuous work;  and in Hebrews 1:14, salvation is an inherited possession for the future:



We already know from the Bible that in order to have access to Heaven/New Jerusalem, a person must be saved. Now, usually, when we say that a person was saved, we mean that person accepted Christ into his life. Now, let me say that even though you were saved (at a specific time and place), you are still in the process of salvation. Your spirit is saved, but some other parts of you are not yet saved. The Bible says: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21) Yes, that is true, your soul is not saved yet!

Salvation takes place in three times: past, present and future. You were saved (that is your spirit) when you admitted you are a sinner and accepted Jesus as your personal Savor; that was in the past. You are in the process of salvation, now, in the present (salvation of the soul). And, you will be saved in the future, when God will completely take away sin from you (that is your body).   

You might say, well, I think my soul is saved. I want to ask you to reconsider that. All those bad thoughts about your neighbor, wife, husband, parents, somebody from the church – do they come out of a saved soul??? I don't think so! When you hate somebody – is that the proof of a saved soul? Is everything that your mind thinks and your heart feels proof of salvation? Not in my case, at least! John, the apostle, says in 1 John 3:9, that "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Well, you say, 'I am saved', 'I am a child of God', but the Bible says what is born of God cannot sin.

Do you sin? I do. What does that mean? Before answering, let me tell you that in this particular verse, John is referring to our spirit. Our spirit that was born from God cannot sin. And that is so true, your spirit and mine cannot sin. Why? Because it was born from God. It is His seed – and His seed cannot sin. In order to see what is not saved yet, just think of the sources of sin in yourself. One of them is your soul. Loving in a way we're not supposed to, hating others – just show us how sinful our soul is. And if something is sinful, that something needs salvation, it needs to be changed by God.

The Bible calls the salvation of the soul, sanctification. To sanctify means to make something that is sinful into a saint; it means to be "set apart" for God, for His service. This is the process through which the believer is gradually set away from sin, and becomes more and more dedicated to the standard of God's righteousness. Titus 2:14 makes that so clear: "Who gave himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." This process takes place every day, every moment, until God will decide to move us to His glory.

In the Bible, we see three different aspects of sanctification:

1. The instantly sanctification is the position the believer receives in front of God the moment he accepts Jesus through faith. 1 Corinthians 6:11: "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." This is you position before God.

2. Progressive sanctification is the process of a man growing in righteousness; it is what "takes us ever higher" and "releases us ever more from under the power of sin." 2 Corinthians 7:1b: "…let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." The New Testament doesn't have any shortcut to sanctification; it only encourages us to just dedicate to the old-fashioned but honored reading of the Bible and to meditate, pray, worship, [yield/submit to God's will] and self-discipline ourselves. This is your spiritual growth.

3. The final sanctification will happen only in heaven when God will completely remove sin from us. 1 John 3:2b: "…and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when HE shall appear, we shall be like HIM; for we shall see HIM as HE is." This is your eternal state.

We are at no. 2. Our soul is in the process of salvation, of being sanctified. The Bible says: "Be ye holy".


The salvation of the soul is probably the most misunderstood concept in Christianity today. This may sound incredible, since virtually every church-going Christian thinks that his understanding of soul salvation is correct, but only a handful of Christians has bothered to check out the Scriptures to see what soul salvation really means. It matters not what preachers say about soul salvation, if the Scriptures say something different. Spirit and soul are not the same in the Bible. The following Scripture clearly establishes that soul and spirit are not the same:

1 Th 5:23 (KJV) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It...helps to confirm that spirit salvation differs from soul salvation. Spirit salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ plus nothing. The following Scripture about Paul and Silas confirms this:

Acts 16:30-31 (KJV) (30) And (the Philippian jailer) brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? (31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Spirit salvation is very simple. One simply believes that Jesus Christ died for his sins. One can do nothing to earn this salvation. It is a gift from God, and the Holy Spirit even provides the faith. However, the Scriptures go into great detail regarding soul salvation, which should occur after spirit salvation. 

The Scriptures are also clear that effort or striving is necessary for soul salvation. The following Scripture confirms this:

James 1:21 (KJV) Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

James 1:21 (ASV 1901) Wherefore putting away all filthiness and overflowing of wickedness, receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

This Scripture is addressing believers and it states that a believer can save his soul by getting rid of sin in his life and studying and obeying the inspired scriptures. This requirement differs from Acts 16:30-31. Spirit salvation and soul salvation are not the same.

The difference between spirit salvation and soul salvation is the difference between grace and works. The spirit is saved by faith in Jesus Christ, while the soul is saved by faithfulness to Jesus Christ. Soul salvation does not determine whether a person enters heaven, but it does determine his reward in heaven. Some Christians will enter heaven with no reward because of unfaithfulness to Jesus. The following Scripture confirms this:

1 Cor 3:13-15 (KJV) (13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. (14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The following Scripture also confirms that soul salvation is the result of works:

1 Pet 1:7-9 (KJV) (7) That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: (8) Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: (9) Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

This Scripture is addressed to believers who have faith that has matured, and when tested at the return of Jesus, will be found to be as precious as gold resulting in praise, honor and glory from the Lord Jesus Christ. This results in the saving of their souls or reward for being faithful.

In the following Scripture, Jesus explains the requirement for soul salvation:

Mat 16:24-27 (KJV) (24) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. (25) For whosoever will save his life (psuche) shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life (psuche) for my sake shall find it. (26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul (psuche)? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul (psuche)? (27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Please note that the Greek word for life and soul is the same word psuche throughout this passage of Scripture. Jesus is telling His disciples about soul salvation and how it determines their reward for successfully crucifying the old flesh nature.  This passage of Scripture clearly establishes that soul salvation is according to works.

Spirit and soul are not the same.  The soul is what a person is in regard to his character or his person.  It is possible for a person to be totally changed as a person and in character.  The reason for this is that the soul is a person's mind, emotions, intellect, will and heart.  It is what kind of person he is in life.  This is why the Greek word psuche is alternately translated as life or soul.

It is possible for a person to lose his soul in this life and be a totally different person. This happens when a person lives according to his new spirit nature, which never sins (1 John 3:9), instead of his old flesh nature, which can do nothing good. Therefore, the Christian who loses his soul in order to save it is the faithful, spiritual Christian who will receive a reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ when the Christian's works will be tried by fire. The souls of Christians who continued to live according to their old flesh nature will be lost (i.e., THE SOULS will perish or be destroyed), and they will receive no reward.  Their spirits—which are born of God—will still be saved, and they will still receive a redeemed body.  The redeemed body will live in complete submission to the spirit, so the soul (i.e., personality, character and mind) of these believers will be totally different in heaven. Their souls will perish, but they will be completely and totally redeemed.

There will be Christians who will be disqualified as the Bride of Christ, and they will lose their inheritance as a coheir with Jesus Christ. They will still be in heaven, and they will be totally forgiven for all their sins. Christians who had lived their lives as gluttons will no longer be gluttons. Christians who had lived lives as busybodies and gossips will no longer be that way. Christians who were liars will no longer be liars. Christians who were pharisaical and self-righteous will no longer be that way.

In like manner, Christians who participated in drunkenness will no longer be drunkards. Christians who committed homosexual acts will no longer be homosexual. Christians who were adulterers will no longer be adulterers. Christians caught up in seeking after wealth and material possessions will no longer be worldly minded.  All of these Christians will have lost their souls, but they will have new souls. Simply stated, their lives will be totally different, but they will have no positions of honor and glory in the reign of Jesus Christ.

End of part 1

This is pretty much exactly where I have come to rest after many years of study- and reading the studies of others. Soul salvation is the critical and misunderstood issue. The best book I ever read on the subject is Watchman Nee's "The Release of the Spirit".

[adjusted tiny detail in my quote]

[jabcat]

Thanks John for the witness.  I've had some uncertainties about this, yet it seems to explain some things I've been missing.  One of them has to do with the sins of others.  Understanding some of the above seems to put some things in place about that for me.  I may explain more later, but it's been a big deal for me. 

[micah7:9]

micah, my friend, I'm not sure I understand your statement about teaching the scriptures vs. doctrine of men.  That's exactly what I'm personally trying to do, see what the scriptures say beyond our "usual" reading.  Sometimes others have insight into that.  I don't just take what they say without question, as the Holy Spirit is to be our "real" Teacher.

Trying to understand and reconcile the scrips, IMO, doesn't always just come easily, and I know very little.  But let me ask you this;  if the Bible in one place says    "you're saved by grace not works, it's a gift";  then in another place says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling";  then says something along the lines of "working/hoping that I may attain" something in the future (paraphrase);   doesn't that indicate there's more than an "ordinary, surface reading" might show?  One person can take part of it and say, well, it's only grace.  Another can say, well, it takes works.  While another can say we're already saved, and another, no, we're going to be saved - and ALL pull out one or two scriptures to "prove" their point.  To me, all those differerent scriptures means there's either "more than I'd previously assumed" - perhaps by that tradition of which you speak - or I'm not understanding something, because the scriptures cannot contradict.  Only my understanding can fall short and cause me confusion, not the scriptures (and believe me, I've done it).  Trying to learn here.   

" But let me ask you this;  if the Bible in one place says    "you're saved by grace not works, it's a gift";  then in another place says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling";  then says something along the lines of "working/hoping that I may attain" something in the future (paraphrase);   doesn't that indicate there's more than an "ordinary, surface reading" might show?  One person can take part of it and say, well, it's only grace.  Another can say, well, it takes works.  While another can say we're already saved, and another, no, we're going to be saved - and ALL pull out one or two scriptures to "prove" their point. "

Psa_119:160  The sum of Thy word is truth, And to the age is every judgment of Thy righteousness!
To me this means ALL of His Word is truth.

Grace CAUSES us to obey God. The carnal mind CAUSES men to disobey God. It is that simple.

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the Name of the LORD shall be SAVED" (Acts 2:21)?
"And why call ye Me, LORD, LORD, and DO NOT THE THINGS WHICH I SAY?" (Luke 6:46).
Eph 2:8  for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you--of God the gift,
Eph 2:9  not of works, that no one may boast;
Eph 2:10  for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.
"For the GRACE of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, TEACHING US [Gk: 'to train, educate, discipline, punish, chasten, instruct, learn, teach'] that, denying ungodliness and worldly lust, we should live soberly [with a sound mind], righteously, and GODLY, in this present world" (Titus 2:11-12).

If you are not doing this and growing every day, then you are not being graced by God, and you are not on your way to salvation. The grace of God WILL DISCIPLINE AND CHASTEN us into obedience to all of God's Spiritual laws and commandments.

"Whosoever will come after Me, let him DENY himself, and TAKE UP HIS CROSS, and FOLLOW ME" (Mark 8:34).

This is not an "option" to salvation; this is an absolute REQUIREMENT.  Not trying to paint a picture of doom and gloom, but the reality of living as Jesus Christ demands is not a walk in the park or a stroll through a rose garden.

"For even hereunto were ye called; because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example that ye should follow [By suffering with Him—'Yea, and ALL that will live godly in Christ Jesus SHALL SUFFER persecution' II Tim. 3:12] His steps" (I Pet. 2:21).

"He that says he abides in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He [Jesus] walked" (I John 2:6).

"Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He IS, SO ARE WE in the world" (I John 4:17).

Now these words are for ALL not just some group?  Correct?
""So yes, I believe there are those who are believers who are less diligent than other believers, and that it's important to make those distinction (working on it, no expert) - and if we don't then we have what appears to be contradictions - which IMO, cannot be.     "(Jabcat)

If this be true "I believe there are those who are believers who are less diligent than other believers.."  Then I say those less diligent, were never as of yet by God's Grace.

[eaglesway]

Again I must question why do you find two

two what?

Do you really believe that when the Father draws or drags a soul to His Son Jesus Christ, that that souls is saying," Wow, Glory I'm saved, now all I have to do is sit and wait. I'm IN!"
Or do you believe that soul when called, who has heard the Gospel is not going to get in the race for the Prize?

Maybe not consciously.  But maybe their lot is not to be an overcomer, or for whatever reason they don't mature (I don't have all those answers to all those possibilities) so although they have been given the faith to believe on Jesus as Savior, they don't grow, they neglect to pray, stay wrapped up in things of the world, etc., so they never progress beyond "call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved".

At this point are we just debating and trying to either "resist or win", or are we really trying to hear each other to edification?   I don't want to just "lock horns", and no, we don't have to divide and have our own denominations      

AWWWWW but I always WANTED to have my own denomination!

[micah7:9]

I have printed off your paper (its is quite long) so that I can study what you wrote. It is difficult for me to read a lot on the screen and besides I'm a note taker. Ive read it twice on the screen and all it did was murk up my mind, one thing stands out is that you say that "The salvation of the soul is probably the most misunderstood concept in Christianity today."

I can say that the entire teaching of the Bible is the most misunderstood concept in Christianity today

[jabcat]

    Just making sure you know, this information is 99.9% other sources than myself.  I didn't write it, I'm not that smart.   

[micah7:9]

   Just making sure you know, this information is 99.9% other sources than myself.  I didn't write it, I'm not that smart.   

I am a little let down now that you told me that. I dont believe that you are not that smart, you are a treasure hunter, a searcher of pearls, you have the mind of Christ. You, that Life in you, is just in need of grace doing a little guiding and nudging, as your faith grows stronger, the Wisdom of the Lord will find its way and then you wont need to be smart!

1Co 2:14  and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them , because spiritually they are discerned;
1Co 2:15  and he who is spiritual, doth discern indeed all things, and he himself is by no one discerned;
1Co 2:16  for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we--we have the mind of Christ.

[jabcat]

"Note - I am NOT saying this is 100% without question exact doctrine.  I do think it has a lot of merit, some good potential for learning, and good for discussion.   "

..and now soul salvation.

Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls [psuchas]. Js. 1:21

But we are not of them who draw back to perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul [psuchEs]. Hebrews 10:39

Contrast with;

you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit [pneuma] may be saved in the day of the Lord.  I Corinthians 5:5     

Before I do back out completely for awhile, I wanted to make sure you saw this post brother micah, and notice the difference in what's being saved.

Alright, carry on.  Be blessed in your searching, and I'll post Part 2 tomorrow, Lord willing.   

[micah7:9]

Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls [psuchas]. Js. 1:21
breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; to breathe (voluntarily but gently; to breathe hard, that is, breeze: - blow; life; to live
Or could be said…. which is able to save your BREATH or LIFE or LIVES
Yes I know the Greeks made a soul(the sentient of the human)but of a truth a soul is the person.
I would say the same about Heb.10:39
But we are not of them who draw back to perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul [psuchEs]. Hebrews 10:39
Lev 17:14 for the soul of all flesh is its blood; as its soul is it. So I said to the sons of Israel:The blood of any flesh you shall not eat, for the soul of all flesh, it is its blood. Everyone eating it shall be cut off.(CLV)
Lev 17:14  for it is the life of all flesh, its blood is for its life; and I say to the sons of Israel, Blood of any flesh ye do not eat, for the life of all flesh is its blood; any one eating it is cut off. (YLT)
Lev 17:14  For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off. (KJV)
Do you see the how "soul" is translated.

Contrast with;

you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit [pneuma] may be saved in the day of the Lord.  I Corinthians 5:5     
From what I can find in most translations it reads,'.. so that "the" spirit may be saved.
Which in my reasoning is breath, which is what gives him life. I believe that "spirit" is the breath of Gen.2:7 which is what will return to the one who gave it. G4151  pneuma  ; a current of air, that is, breath G4154  pneō  A primary word; to breathe hard. Still I find that verse puzzling, the delivering over to the adversary part. What is quite funny is
1Co 5:5  to deliver up and Joh 13:11  For he knew who should betray him;
That word betray is the same.  G3860 paradidōmi  to surrender, that is, yield up, intrust, transmit: betray, bring forth, cast, commit, deliver (up).
I find that interesting just found that out.

Before I do back out completely for awhile, I wanted to make sure you saw this post brother micah, and notice the difference in what's being saved.

[eaglesway]

God has no need to deliver someone over to Satan to save His own 'breathe'. The breathe returns to the one who gave it when a man dies no matter whether he was delivered over to Satan or not.

[micah7:9]

God has no need to deliver someone over to Satan to save His own 'breathe'. The breathe returns to the one who gave it when a man dies no matter whether he was delivered over to Satan or not.

Any thoughts on 1Co 5:5  to deliver up such a one to the Adversary for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

[thinktank]

God has no need to deliver someone over to Satan to save His own 'breathe'. The breathe returns to the one who gave it when a man dies no matter whether he was delivered over to Satan or not.

Any thoughts on 1Co 5:5  to deliver up such a one to the Adversary for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I have found this a tough verse. Why hand anyone to Satan, especially a believer. But I reason perhaps it is by faith that Paul believes the man will suffer consequences for his evils, reap what he sowed, by handing the flesh over to satan, satan buffets the flesh, like he did with Job, so that the man repents from his sins. king David also was buffeted by Satan for his sins and also Paul via the thorn in the flesh. The thorn keeps Paul humble and prevents the old prideful boastfull Saul, resurfacing.
 

[micah7:9]

I believe a new thread is a good idea for I Cor.5:5 yes?

[jabcat]

I believe a new thread is a good idea for I Cor.5:5 yes?

I looked for an old thread we could, ahummm, resurrect.

I didn't find one, so go for it. 

[jabcat]

Part 2 as promised.  (A few thoughts;  in this respect I agree with micah, that if a person has believed there will be at least some evidence of old things passing away and all things becoming new.  So for my understanding, the following information may take that just a little too far in saying there may not be any sign other than they say they believed.  Still, there may be Christians that have trusted Christ as Savior, but are still carnal/worldly (see Paul's letter to the Corinthians).

Anyway, again, perhaps much to be gleaned here if we approach it with an open heart and mind, pray about it, test the spirits, and study to "see if those things be true".
--------------------------------------------------

[from Part 1;  Note - I am NOT saying this is 100% without question exact doctrine.  I do think it has a lot of merit, some good potential for learning, and good for discussion.   

Information from various sources, including C Miclaus and L Mize]
-------------------------------------------------


The Word of God speaks about the salvation of man in three tenses:  past, present, and future.  Christians have been saved;  Christians are being saved;  and Christians will be saved.  In Ephesians 2:8,9 of the Holy Bible, salvation is described as being a past, completed act.  1 Corinthians 1:18 states that salvation is a present, continuous work;  and in Hebrews 1:14, salvation is an inherited possession for the future:

(Eph 2:8-9 NIV)  For it is by grace you *have been* saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- {9} not by works, so that no one can boast.

(1 Cor 1:18 NIV)  For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

(Heb 1:14 NIV)  Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Many Christians do not understand the whole salvation of man according to how the Bible teaches it...The Bible is not a buffet for Christians to pick and choose what scriptures they want to eat.  They must eat the whole Bible in it's entirety.  For example, James 1:21 tells very specifically how to save your soul.

(James 1:21 KJV)  Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

This Scripture appears to disagree with Acts 16:30-31, where it says, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"  "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."  Since these two Scriptures are talking about different criteria for salvation, which must mean there is something else a Christian must do in order to save his soul.  Man is a tripartite or three part being consisting of body, soul, and spirit.  These are the three salvations that will be discussed throughout this paper.

(1 Th 5:23 NIV)  May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is only one place in the Bible where a person asked, "what must I do to be saved?"  The verse reads:

(Acts 16:30-31 NIV)  He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" {31} They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."

This requirement for salvation is so simple, a small child can even understand it.  There is only one step to God's plan of salvation and anyone who adds additional steps is merely adding to the Bible.  This salvation is known as the salvation of the spirit.  The requirement for this salvation is simply believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.  Salvation does not require repentance, baptism, submission to the control of the Holy Spirit, fellowship with other Christians, fellowship with God, or faithfulness to God."

These six choices should follow salvation but are in no way requirements for salvation.  When a person believes on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, God's Holy Spirit immediately enters into his body and indwells him forever.  Many Christians believe that salvation can be lost, and they are partially right.  The salvation of the soul can be lost, but the salvation of the spirit can not be lost.  The surety of going to heaven can not be lost according to the following verses:

(Eph 1:13 NIV)  And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

(Eph 4:30 NIV)  And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

When a person is saved he is in the family of God, and that is why we call God our Father who is in heaven.  Once God becomes our Father and we become His children (children of God), that relationship cannot be broken.  For example, everyone has a father and a mother.  When someone dies or starts living a life of sin away from his family, does this mean that this person no longer has a mother or a father?  Certainly not!  It does not matter what you do or where you go here on earth, your father will always be your father, and your mother will always be your mother.  Fellowship with the family can be broken, but relationship cannot be broken.  Every believer will have to stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ and give an account of what he did here on earth, whether it be good or bad, in accordance with the following Scripture:

(1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV)  his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. {14} If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. {15} If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Then each believer will be rewarded according to what he did in this life.  If everything he did on earth was bad, he will be repaid accordingly.  Obedience to God will also be rewarded accordingly.  Salvation of the spirit gets a person to the Judgment Seat of Christ, which takes place at the resurrection.

 A person cannot lose the salvation of his spirit.  This is proven in the following Scripture:

(2 Cor 1:21-22 NIV)  Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, {22} set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.


Paul was encouraging the Philippians to save their souls in the following Scripture:

(Phil 2:12 NIV)  Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

Now if the Lord saves you by grace (which is an unmerited gift), why would Paul tell us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling?  Paul is not talking about our spirit salvation.  He is referring to soul salvation, which is directly related to rewards and our works.  Many preachers and teachers misinterpret this Scripture by pulling it out of context and saying that Paul is talking about spiritual rebirth.

Jesus tells his disciples that they must lose their lives or souls now to save it for the coming kingdom.  Christians can do this by surrendering our lives to the control of the Holy Spirit, who lives inside of us...faithfulness will be rewarded with a position of reigning and ruling with Jesus Christ in the kingdom.  Most Christians are not willing to do this. 

The loss of one's soul is the loss of rewards and a position of honor in the coming reign of Christ. It means his life was wasted here on earth, since he did nothing for the Lord Jesus Christ. 

The spirit of man is what links him directly to God.  At creation, God breathed life into the nostrils of Adam and made him a living being...Christians need to flee from sin and absorb and live according to the Word.  This is considered works of faith.  Christians can mature and save their souls through the knowledge of and obedience to the Word of God.  The books of 1 Peter and 2 Peter were written to Christians in regard to saving their souls as a future occurrence:

(1 Pet 1:7-9 KJV)  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: {8} Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: {9} Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.


The third part of man is his body, which allows him to be in contact with the physical realm.  Man is incomplete without all three parts.  Those who think that man will live in a blissful state when he no longer has a body are ignorant of the Scriptures.  The salvation of a Christian's body is entirely future, and it is guaranteed to occur at the resurrection.

(Rom 8:23 KJV)  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

At the resurrection Christians will be given a redeemed body of flesh and bone, and they will be sinless and perfect. 

Conclusion

A Christian's salvation involves spirit, soul, and body.  All three are important to the Christian in that the spirit was saved, the soul is being saved, and the body is going to be saved.  Consequently, salvation is past, present and future.  Unfortunately, there will be Christians who will lose their souls at the Judgment Seat of Christ, but they will still be saved spiritually as one who came through a fire and lost everything:

(1 Cor 3:13-15 KJV)  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. {14} If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. {15} If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

When a person believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, his spirit is saved.  From there a Christian should go on into the salvation of the soul.  This salvation is accomplished throughout the life of a Christian, if he submits himself to the control of the indwelling Holy Spirit.  This salvation is the only salvation that can be lost, and Christians should awaken to this fact.  When Christians get to the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Lord Jesus Christ will determine whether or not the lives we lived were for Him or for ourselves.  All Christians, whether they lose their soul or not, will receive glorified bodies at the resurrection that will live in perfect obedience to the Holy Spirit.  Therefore, all Christians will have a new soul or life at the Judgment Seat of Christ, making all Christians perfect tripartite beings.  The ones who lost their souls will have no positions of authority in the millennial kingdom...


What should a Christian be mostly aware of when it comes to salvation?  Spirit salvation is nothing that we do.  It is the work of the Holy Spirit.  After a person has been born again, it is critical that he read, study, and apply the teachings of the Bible to his life.  If we as spiritually born from above believers do this, then our lives will count for something, and we will receive tremendous rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ.  This is the salvation of our soul.  If we live our lives according to our own flesh nature, then our lives will not count for anything, and we will receive no rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ.  This is the loss of our souls.    The salvation of the soul pertains strictly to rewards, and it plays no part in our final destiny.  However, all Christians will be in heaven and will be made perfect, since they will be conformed to the image of Christ.  The salvation of a Christian's body is entirely future, and it is guaranteed to occur at the resurrection - when God will completely take away sin from you (that is your body). ...

Editor's note    - then eventually all will join the family, as every knee bows and every tongue confesses Jesus is Lord.  Each in his own order. 

I Cor. 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet."[a] But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.