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Offline jabcat

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Re: Saved
« Reply #75 on: August 29, 2011, 09:26:15 AM »
micah, I believe most if not all of what Jesus said was primarily to the Jews prior to the cross and their judgment of 70 AD, not primarily to us, the nations. 
That's a bit odd because:
A] Jews don't read the NT.
B] Most of the NT was written after 70AD meaning the teachings reached the Jews to late. Not to mention that writing something is the same a spreading it large scale.
C] 70AD has past long ago. For both Jew and Gentile. Does that mean a large part of the NT has become useless? Do we need a mini NT?


James I'm well aware you aren't promoting cutting out half of the pages of the NT; but in a way you are...
Many want to dump the whole OT so don't feel bad  :laughing7:

All that's written is for our learning (the Jews not reading NT is because they are still mostly blinded [I. Cor. 3:14]  They can't see Messiah in the OT, so they don't read the New).  Anyway, as I understand,  what Jesus said, verbally spoke, He did so primarily to the Jews.  Look at the context of the "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel".  A gentile woman was trying to get Jesus to do something for her.  At first He either didn't or barely responded to her.  Then He said "what have I to do with you"?  Finally, she "kept after" Him, and He gave her what she wanted.  This is the context though of "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel".

That's why I said though the spiritual principles apply.  It's ALL still for our learning and growth.   For instance, should we be meek?  I think so.  But primarily, when Jesus said that, who was he talking to, and what would they inherit?  I'm not saying it's easy, or always clear-cut.  However, I do believe if we don't try to make the distinction and just throw it all in a basket, shake it up, and see what comes to the top and then use that for our doctrine (I've done it many times, and out of ignorance, mess up the "rightly dividing" part too) then much confusion occurs.   IMO, it's just something to be really aware of, and attempt to rightly divide it.  Of course as you know, there are ages, periods of God's working and dealings.  Israel primarily for awhile (pre-cross), now primarily the gentiles (nations) (post-cross) when that time has "fully come in", then God will turn back to Israel;  "and so all Israel shall be saved".   Romans 11:26
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 09:45:15 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Saved
« Reply #76 on: August 29, 2011, 09:32:52 AM »
Then the final piece is the saving of the body at resurrection - obviously, future tense.  To be obtained when we're given immortality, when corruption takes on incorruption. 
Which verse?

I believe several (have a long post to edit and arrange), but one is I Cor. 15:54 - Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die, this Scripture will be fulfilled: "Death is swallowed up in victory.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Saved
« Reply #77 on: August 29, 2011, 09:35:18 AM »
another connected, same passage;  vs. 53 - For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies. 
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Saved
« Reply #78 on: August 29, 2011, 09:50:12 AM »
I expected that. Well it's verse with a twist  :winkgrin:

KJV+1Cor 15
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


Tense-Aorist
The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar
action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without
regard for past, present, or future time.
  There is no
direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is
generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations.

The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a
number of categories by grammarians.  The most common of these
include a view of the action as having begun from a certain
point ("inceptive aorist"), or having ended at a certain point
("cumulative aorist"), or merely existing at a certain point
("punctiliar aorist").  The categorization of other cases can
be found in Greek reference grammars.

The English reader need not concern himself with most of these
finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases
they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation,
being fine points of Greek exegesis only.  The common practice
of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense should
suffice in most cases.

There is a lot more going on in this verse. It's a huge mix of future and past tense. Active and passive. Facts and possibilities.
All purely looking at the grammar.
So possibly it already started.


1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Saved
« Reply #79 on: August 29, 2011, 10:02:21 AM »
 :bigGrin:   Maybe already started, I'm not sure.  One thing I've thought is, anything future with God is the same as already done anyway (in a sense - because it WILL happen - and all you really smart people say God exists outside of time anyway, right?  lol)  So anyway, yes, maybe already started, to be completed.

Here's another part of the Great Big Post  :laughing7: that's coming, about the body part of it.


"The third part of man is his body, which allows him to be in contact with the physical realm.  Man is incomplete without all three parts.  Those who think that man will live in a blissful state when he no longer has a body are ignorant of the Scriptures.  The salvation of a Christian's body is entirely future, and it is guaranteed to occur at the resurrection.

(Rom 8:23 KJV)  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Saved
« Reply #80 on: August 29, 2011, 04:09:51 PM »
Remember now that I am the one who believes as the Bible teaches that mankind is a 1)body[formed dust] and
2) spirit[breath] that= makes up a living/breathing creature, man/adam a living soul.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Saved
« Reply #81 on: August 29, 2011, 09:51:26 PM »
I thought about that brother.  However, maybe there's something here that will help move our understanding along.  Maybe so, maybe not.  I'm not fully, 100% convinced of every aspect of this either, but I think there are some things beneficial here to be gleaned.  We'll see.  :)
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Saved
« Reply #82 on: August 29, 2011, 11:05:26 PM »
Hebrews 9:28

(ASV)  so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.

(CLV) thus Christ also, being offered once for the bearing of the sins of many, will be seen a second time, by those awaiting Him, apart from sin, for salvation, through faith."

(KJV)  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

(Rotherham)  Thus, the Christ also, once for all having been offered, for the bearing of the sins, of many, a second time, apart from sin, will appear, to them who for him are ardently waiting—unto salvation.

(WNT)  so the Christ also, having been once offered in sacrifice in order that He might bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, separated from sin, to those who are eagerly expecting Him, to make their salvation complete.

(YLT)  so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time, apart from a sin-offering, shall appear, to those waiting for him--to salvation!

Does'nt quite read that they are already saved, they are waiting(ardently) until/unto.


Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Saved
« Reply #83 on: August 29, 2011, 11:35:22 PM »
So are you saying "no one" is saved yet?  That salvation is only to come at the end of the world?

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Saved
« Reply #84 on: August 30, 2011, 12:04:59 AM »
So are you saying "no one" is saved yet?  That salvation is only to come at the end of the world?
The verse is very vague about that....
Those that are looking for Him now will see Him a second time in the future.
That's how I read the verse when I zoom in a bit on the Greek tenses used.
But as I said, the verse doesn't give any useful info because the future begins a split second from now and never ends.
So this verse supports everybodies view :winkgrin:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Saved
« Reply #85 on: August 30, 2011, 12:11:20 AM »
IMO, that's why much more than one verse needs to be looked at.  I can't do it, but ALL the verses reconcile, if proper context, who and what's being addressed, etc. is considered.

It seems to me there is salvation of the spirit that is clear, indisputable, and sealed for those who are given faith to believe now, then other things being saved/ to be completed. 
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Saved
« Reply #86 on: August 30, 2011, 12:36:58 AM »
IMO, that's why much more than one verse needs to be looked at.
True. One verse was quoted, and I just replied that verse is useless for determining time.
Quote
It seems to me there is salvation of the spirit that is clear, indisputable, and sealed for those who are given faith to believe now
That is what the verse is clear about. They will see Jesus. It's stated as a fact.
Quote
, then other things being saved/ to be completed.
Yep. But there is zero proof for that in this verse.
It's forbidden to add or take away from the Bible as whole. But personally I think the same applies to a single verse. It opens a way to speculation. Which is very good to learn from but also a death trap that leads to doctrines based on words not written....
 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Saved
« Reply #87 on: August 30, 2011, 12:45:40 AM »
No disagreement, just good for all to consider, IMO.   :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Saved
« Reply #88 on: August 30, 2011, 12:52:41 AM »
 Context is everything.

"He that believes has passed from death into life." That's Jesus, and it is so simple. It is the foundation.

"He that endures to the end shall be saved". That's Jesus too, and it is not as simple, but it can't possibly cancel out the first verse, because there are so many others that go with it like;

1Co 1:18  For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

And-

Eph 2:8  For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

And

Act 2:47  praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

And

2Co 2:15  For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing;


Even when Paul speaks of delivering someone over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, because of some egregious sin, it is "That the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus". Everything is unto salvation. If they werent "saved"- in the house of faith- there would be no discipline, because we do not judge them that are without, according to Paul. And to incur such discipline the sin must be, IMO, deliberate and of extreme nature, not the failures of believers struggling with the flesh in things like addictions or faults and character flaws.

When we believe we pass from death into life- that is zoe life, aionian life.

Then as we abide in Christ and grow as disciples, progressive sanctification happens as our relationship with the Lord deepens and trials and tribulations mature us.

If we reject discipleship and resist the maturation process, the Father disciplines us for our own good, that we might release this life and draw nigh unto God. Our "salvation" such as has been already accomplished is still intact but our "salvation" such as is still awaiting us may be frustrated, for example, deliverance from character flaws that do not glorify God and cause havoc in our lives.  If we persist in such as Paul calls "wood, hay and stubble" we might lose our reward. This is in my opinion to do with the benefits of our sonship  inheritance, and the beauty of being used by God.

I think Ananias and Saphira were "saved" even tho they were disciplined severely for their offense. Saved Christians do stupid, sinful, harmful things to one another all the time, and sometimes they suffer the discipline of God for it.

 In the end everyone will be saved- "each in his own order". IMO, These rewards and losses are more about where in the "order" we will experience and participate in the restoration of all things- and ONLY GOD KNOWs the secrets or our hearts.

 


The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline jabcat

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Re: Saved
« Reply #89 on: August 30, 2011, 01:05:04 AM »
Fantastic John.  Thanks for the good word.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Saved
« Reply #90 on: August 30, 2011, 01:18:14 AM »
Note - I am NOT saying this is 100% without question exact doctrine.  I do think it has a lot of merit, some good potential for learning, and good for discussion.   :thumbsup:


Information from various sources, including C Miclaus and L Mize

Intro:  The Word of God speaks about the salvation of man in three tenses:  past, present, and future.  Christians have been saved;  Christians are being saved;  and Christians will be saved.  In Ephesians 2:8,9 of the Holy Bible, salvation is described as being a past, completed act.  1 Corinthians 1:18 states that salvation is a present, continuous work;  and in Hebrews 1:14, salvation is an inherited possession for the future:



We already know from the Bible that in order to have access to Heaven/New Jerusalem, a person must be saved. Now, usually, when we say that a person was saved, we mean that person accepted Christ into his life. Now, let me say that even though you were saved (at a specific time and place), you are still in the process of salvation. Your spirit is saved, but some other parts of you are not yet saved. The Bible says: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21) Yes, that is true, your soul is not saved yet!

Salvation takes place in three times: past, present and future. You were saved (that is your spirit) when you admitted you are a sinner and accepted Jesus as your personal Savor; that was in the past. You are in the process of salvation, now, in the present (salvation of the soul). And, you will be saved in the future, when God will completely take away sin from you (that is your body).   

You might say, well, I think my soul is saved. I want to ask you to reconsider that. All those bad thoughts about your neighbor, wife, husband, parents, somebody from the church – do they come out of a saved soul??? I don't think so! When you hate somebody – is that the proof of a saved soul? Is everything that your mind thinks and your heart feels proof of salvation? Not in my case, at least! John, the apostle, says in 1 John 3:9, that "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Well, you say, 'I am saved', 'I am a child of God', but the Bible says what is born of God cannot sin.

Do you sin? I do. What does that mean? Before answering, let me tell you that in this particular verse, John is referring to our spirit. Our spirit that was born from God cannot sin. And that is so true, your spirit and mine cannot sin. Why? Because it was born from God. It is His seed – and His seed cannot sin. In order to see what is not saved yet, just think of the sources of sin in yourself. One of them is your soul. Loving in a way we're not supposed to, hating others – just show us how sinful our soul is. And if something is sinful, that something needs salvation, it needs to be changed by God.

The Bible calls the salvation of the soul, sanctification. To sanctify means to make something that is sinful into a saint; it means to be "set apart" for God, for His service. This is the process through which the believer is gradually set away from sin, and becomes more and more dedicated to the standard of God's righteousness. Titus 2:14 makes that so clear: "Who gave himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." This process takes place every day, every moment, until God will decide to move us to His glory.

In the Bible, we see three different aspects of sanctification:

1. The instantly sanctification is the position the believer receives in front of God the moment he accepts Jesus through faith. 1 Corinthians 6:11: "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." This is you position before God.

2. Progressive sanctification is the process of a man growing in righteousness; it is what "takes us ever higher" and "releases us ever more from under the power of sin." 2 Corinthians 7:1b: "…let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." The New Testament doesn't have any shortcut to sanctification; it only encourages us to just dedicate to the old-fashioned but honored reading of the Bible and to meditate, pray, worship, [yield/submit to God's will] and self-discipline ourselves. This is your spiritual growth.

3. The final sanctification will happen only in heaven when God will completely remove sin from us. 1 John 3:2b: "…and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when HE shall appear, we shall be like HIM; for we shall see HIM as HE is." This is your eternal state.

We are at no. 2. Our soul is in the process of salvation, of being sanctified. The Bible says: "Be ye holy".


The salvation of the soul is probably the most misunderstood concept in Christianity today. This may sound incredible, since virtually every church-going Christian thinks that his understanding of soul salvation is correct, but only a handful of Christians has bothered to check out the Scriptures to see what soul salvation really means. It matters not what preachers say about soul salvation, if the Scriptures say something different. Spirit and soul are not the same in the Bible. The following Scripture clearly establishes that soul and spirit are not the same:

1 Th 5:23 (KJV) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It...helps to confirm that spirit salvation differs from soul salvation. Spirit salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ plus nothing. The following Scripture about Paul and Silas confirms this:

Acts 16:30-31 (KJV) (30) And (the Philippian jailer) brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? (31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Spirit salvation is very simple. One simply believes that Jesus Christ died for his sins. One can do nothing to earn this salvation. It is a gift from God, and the Holy Spirit even provides the faith. However, the Scriptures go into great detail regarding soul salvation, which should occur after spirit salvation. 

The Scriptures are also clear that effort or striving is necessary for soul salvation. The following Scripture confirms this:

James 1:21 (KJV) Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

James 1:21 (ASV 1901) Wherefore putting away all filthiness and overflowing of wickedness, receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

This Scripture is addressing believers and it states that a believer can save his soul by getting rid of sin in his life and studying and obeying the inspired scriptures. This requirement differs from Acts 16:30-31. Spirit salvation and soul salvation are not the same.

The difference between spirit salvation and soul salvation is the difference between grace and works. The spirit is saved by faith in Jesus Christ, while the soul is saved by faithfulness to Jesus Christ. Soul salvation does not determine whether a person enters heaven, but it does determine his reward in heaven. Some Christians will enter heaven with no reward because of unfaithfulness to Jesus. The following Scripture confirms this:

1 Cor 3:13-15 (KJV) (13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. (14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The following Scripture also confirms that soul salvation is the result of works:

1 Pet 1:7-9 (KJV) (7) That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: (8) Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: (9) Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

This Scripture is addressed to believers who have faith that has matured, and when tested at the return of Jesus, will be found to be as precious as gold resulting in praise, honor and glory from the Lord Jesus Christ. This results in the saving of their souls or reward for being faithful.

In the following Scripture, Jesus explains the requirement for soul salvation:

Mat 16:24-27 (KJV) (24) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. (25) For whosoever will save his life (psuche) shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life (psuche) for my sake shall find it. (26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul (psuche)? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul (psuche)? (27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Please note that the Greek word for life and soul is the same word psuche throughout this passage of Scripture. Jesus is telling His disciples about soul salvation and how it determines their reward for successfully crucifying the old flesh nature.  This passage of Scripture clearly establishes that soul salvation is according to works.

Spirit and soul are not the same.  The soul is what a person is in regard to his character or his person.  It is possible for a person to be totally changed as a person and in character.  The reason for this is that the soul is a person's mind, emotions, intellect, will and heart.  It is what kind of person he is in life.  This is why the Greek word psuche is alternately translated as life or soul.

It is possible for a person to lose his soul in this life and be a totally different person. This happens when a person lives according to his new spirit nature, which never sins (1 John 3:9), instead of his old flesh nature, which can do nothing good. Therefore, the Christian who loses his soul in order to save it is the faithful, spiritual Christian who will receive a reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ when the Christian's works will be tried by fire. The souls of Christians who continued to live according to their old flesh nature will be lost (i.e., THE SOULS will perish or be destroyed), and they will receive no reward.  Their spirits—which are born of God—will still be saved, and they will still receive a redeemed body.  The redeemed body will live in complete submission to the spirit, so the soul (i.e., personality, character and mind) of these believers will be totally different in heaven. Their souls will perish, but they will be completely and totally redeemed.

There will be Christians who will be disqualified as the Bride of Christ, and they will lose their inheritance as a coheir with Jesus Christ. They will still be in heaven, and they will be totally forgiven for all their sins. Christians who had lived their lives as gluttons will no longer be gluttons. Christians who had lived lives as busybodies and gossips will no longer be that way. Christians who were liars will no longer be liars. Christians who were pharisaical and self-righteous will no longer be that way.

In like manner, Christians who participated in drunkenness will no longer be drunkards. Christians who committed homosexual acts will no longer be homosexual. Christians who were adulterers will no longer be adulterers. Christians caught up in seeking after wealth and material possessions will no longer be worldly minded.  All of these Christians will have lost their souls, but they will have new souls. Simply stated, their lives will be totally different, but they will have no positions of honor and glory in the reign of Jesus Christ.

End of part 1
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 02:45:34 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Saved
« Reply #91 on: August 30, 2011, 01:23:56 AM »
As I wrote in another post, it would seem you all believe that you already have what Paul never received; Paul is still attaining.
Php 3:11 if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.


Php 3:10 to know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, conforming to His death,
Php 3:11 if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.
Php 3:12 Not that I already obtained, or am already perfected. Yet I am pursuing, if I may be grasping also that for which I was grasped also by Christ Jesus."
Php 3:13 Brethren, not as yet am I reckoning myself to have grasped, yet one thing - forgetting, indeed, those things which are behind, yet stretching out to those in front - "
Php 3:14 toward the goal am I pursuing for the prize of God's calling above in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Whoever, then, are mature, may be disposed to this, and if in anything you are differently disposed, this also shall God reveal to you."

And I see that it is the "time" thing that is the obstacle, Thus, the Christ also, once for all having been offered, for the bearing of the sins, of many, a second time, apart from sin, will appear, to them who for him are ardently waiting—unto salvation.
Php 3:14 toward the goal am I pursuing for the prize of God's calling above in Christ Jesus.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Saved
« Reply #92 on: August 30, 2011, 01:25:10 AM »
A thought occurs to me, based on Part 1 of the "great big post"  :bigGrin: ;  believers will judged on their works, but won't suffer "torment" (convicting, cleansing) as the unsaved, who will have to be brought to a place of repentance and a willingness of confession of Jesus as Lord?   
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Saved
« Reply #93 on: August 30, 2011, 01:34:14 AM »
As I wrote in another post, it would seem you all believe that you already have what Paul never received; Paul is still attaining.
Php 3:11 if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.


I think Paul was talking about the first resurrection, i.e., ruling and reigning with Christ during His reign before Father's all in all, the reward of obedience and overcoming - eonian life, "life of the eon";    not the "eternal" life or immortality that all will receive, to which some are guaranteed now (Jn. 3:16), the rest later.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 01:43:43 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Saved
« Reply #94 on: August 30, 2011, 01:45:06 AM »
"Note - I am NOT saying this is 100% without question exact doctrine.  I do think it has a lot of merit, some good potential for learning, and good for discussion.   :thumbsup:"

Im going back to read the half or less than half, but all I can say is I can really understand why people want less and less of The Bible. Religion alone is a blur and nothing more that rituals and formulas, theologians come along and stir beliefs up even more, so I am not understanding.
Jer 10:21  For the shepherds, have become brutish, And Yahweh, have they not sought,—For this cause, have they not prospered, And, all their flock, is scattered.
 So I now we have Rapture, soul sleep, spiritual death, glorified and spiritual [bodies],and now soul salvation. All of which I see but I am amazed most of the time at the teachings the church pulls up to explain what the church has decided the Bible says. Example: When a soul dies it goes to heaven or paradise or should you be a bad soul, then you got hell or purgatory.
But I cant find out where in the Bible its tells me this?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Saved
« Reply #95 on: August 30, 2011, 01:48:57 AM »
As I wrote in another post, it would seem you all believe that you already have what Paul never received; Paul is still attaining.
Php 3:11 if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.


I think Paul was talking about the first resurrection, i.e., ruling and reigning with Christ during His reign before Father's all in all, the reward of obedience and overcoming - eonian life, "life of the eon";    not the "eternal" life or immortality that all will receive, to which some are guaranteed now (Jn. 3:16), the rest later.

So whats the difference????  Paul is still dead and waiting, he has not made it as of yet. Yes all will receive DEATHLESSNESS, but they all have to WAIT dead UNTIL.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Saved
« Reply #96 on: August 30, 2011, 02:16:10 AM »
Perhaps the difference between living in close proximity to Christ, ruling and reigning with Him, partaking with Him as brethren - vs. waiting for the second resurrection and having a "distance" forever from the throne?  I admit, I've had times of thinking things like "I just want to squeak in", but apparently Paul [and other overcomers] are striving to obtain more than that.  :2c:     They don't want to "only" be saved.  They want to attain, to conquer, to be awarded the winner's prize.

As I understand, that's a whole different process than "by grace are you saved, not of yourselves, not by works, it's the gift of God".
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Saved
« Reply #97 on: August 30, 2011, 02:37:50 AM »
" They don't want to "only" be saved."

Let me as you friend, do you believe that mankind "wants" to be "saved?"  If you do then I dont know what to say. Mankind has no want to be saved of his own mind.
I do believe that Paul and others will be in the elect and chosen, in the first resurrection, but they are not there YET.
When the Father draws a soul, that soul is given all thats needed to run the race  Eph 4:7  and to each one of you was given the grace, according to the measure of the gift of Christ,
Now I believe here is where the "works" come in, His Grace goes to work breaking the soul/person down to where the Holy Spirit can begin to direct the steps; and those steps energized by the Spirit, well there are works that get done, because that sou/person(and now a new creature)l has the very Faith of Jesus to hold on to,[not that any man should boast.]


Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Saved
« Reply #98 on: August 30, 2011, 02:55:01 AM »
" They don't want to "only" be saved."

Let me as you friend, do you believe that mankind "wants" to be "saved?"  If you do then I dont know what to say. Mankind has no want to be saved of his own mind.

I'm talking about those already believing, the saved - who are not happy just "sneaking in" on grace, but are working toward the "better resurrection" through obedience, yielding, vs. living carnally/to the flesh.

I'm just a sinner saved by grace, but apparently being an overcomer will have its own rewards beyond the first step of "saved by grace, not by works".

"I do believe that Paul and others will be in the elect

The elect; "He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will…." (Eph. 1:4–5)    IMO, this is where the scripture comes in, "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."

2 different salvations [edit] things.  One a gift to the elect, "those that are believing" (and all the rest later), the other a reward for yielding to God's good works through them (overcomers).
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 04:09:27 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Saved
« Reply #99 on: August 30, 2011, 03:22:25 AM »
Well Im sorry I just do not see "two" salvations.

"I'm just a sinner saved by grace, but apparently being an overcomer will have its own rewards beyond the first step of "saved by grace, not by works".
Eph 4:7  and to each one of you was given the grace, according to the measure of the gift of Christ,  

I also do not under stand your speech "I'm talking about those already believing, the saved - who are not happy just "sneaking in" on grace, but are working toward the "better resurrection" through obedience, yielding, vs. living carnally/to the flesh."
So are you saying that some of the saved are just happy to be saved and are now lazy cause they already got what was due them? 

Rom 13:11 This, also, do, being aware of the era, that it is already the hour for us to be roused out of sleep, for now is our salvation nearer than when we believe."
 
I have to believe that Paul is part of the "our" dont you?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 03:55:46 AM by micah7:9 »
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.