Author Topic: Saved but still need to be saved  (Read 1025 times)

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Offline claypot

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Saved but still need to be saved
« on: August 01, 2009, 04:04:26 AM »
I have been discussing this with a friend and would like your thoughts.........

Here is what I wrote him today.......

My friend wrote....

Thank God He doesn't save us based on our performance, but based on His grace.  I'll accept that.  Do you?

  I responded......

He can and does only save us based on the performance of Jesus Christ........the Divine within us(the Christ that lights every man that enters the world)....that sounds weird but I think it's true.
 
I don't really even understand grace to tell you the truth. To theological for my blood. I like to think that God created us because He wanted to. He took one look at us and fell in love with us. He pronounced the work of His hands (us) very good and because He loves us He saves us, period. Simple.
 
I think I already told you that I know Jesus saved us. That to me is a done deal. Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world (me and you and ....). Tis the works of the Devil that keeps us from God and Jesus came to destroy the works of the Devil and I think He did just that as well as the first thing I mentioned. Jesus did not fail of His mission nor God of His intended purpose for Jesus so I do accept that I am saved BUT in another very real sense I am not saved at all. This is why I am trying to work out my salvation with fear and trembling. This is why I strive for the high calling that I sense is my destiny.
 
I believe, help my unbelief, doesn't quite say it all for me. I might say 'I believe, help me know Your peace and purity.'
 
My intellectual acceptance of being saved by His grace is almost meaningless to me. It comforts me to know there is something at work within me crying out on my behalf to God. It is working even when I am faithless. God will not ignore the cry of the Divine, the Christ that lights every man that enters the world.
 
Also you say that God doesn't save us based on our performance and I agree somewhat but I want to be saved from much of my performance or being saved is meaningless and a sham to me. I do not think I am pleasing to God if my performance is bad and to be a life that does not please God would not be a life that is saved in my opinion, do you understand?
 
In other words, I know I am saved because of the Christ but I am not saved until the Christ so permeates my being that I am at total peace in Him. Do you understand the reality of being saved yet working out our salvation? Do you really consider yourself completely saved in body (physical), mind and spirit? Is your existence right this very minute 'Heaven' to you? I know it's not, not in the way I am asking. You long for something more. You know there is still something not 100% right within your essence. You are still working out your salvation in some way aren't you?
 
Oh I'm just airing but am really looking forward to your thoughts on these things. I don't want any theological or 'intellectual' thoughts per se but your usual good thoughts from your 'heart'.

cp
 

For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Saved but still need to be saved
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2009, 04:18:44 AM »
Romans 8: Amplified

    19 For [even the whole] creation (all nature) waits expectantly and longs earnestly for God's sons to be made known [waits for the revealing, the disclosing of their sonship].

There's more to be. I feel it too CP.

aspiring son

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Re: Saved but still need to be saved
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2009, 05:08:33 AM »
I agree   
Romans 8: Amplified

    19 For [even the whole] creation (all nature) waits expectantly and longs earnestly for God's sons to be made known [waits for the revealing, the disclosing of their sonship].

There's more to be. I feel it too CP.

 Praying, sharing, and loving in the divine is uncomparable to when we do those things in our flesh,( and yes we all have). And it is by these glorious things that even take us by surprise that are saving us. God ordained it that way so that we don't credit ourselves. I feel that is why this walk takes our whole lifetime, for the sake of humility. Just some of my thoughts,

Brandon

Offline claypot

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Re: Saved but still need to be saved
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2009, 03:40:36 PM »
Ok, this may be a bit off topic but I think it will tie in later.

I am confused a bit here.

In order for me to really appreciate Jesus as a savior I need to know He and His Father are not responsible at all for what I need saving from. If someone arranges for a boat I am on to go down in the middle of shark infested seas and then saves me, I would look at that person (savior) differently than if this someone had nothing at all to do with my boat sinking or the shark infested seas either for that matter.

Is it possible that God had nothing to do with our sinning?

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline claypot

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Re: Saved but still need to be saved
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2009, 03:58:23 PM »
Life is very precious to most of us and it should be. Now when a person gives up or risks his very life to selflessly save another, we praise such a person as a hero and rightly so because he gave up or risked something very precious.

I ask respectfully what did God give up or risk to save us? What is most precious to Him? His very Godhood? We teach that God sent His Son, Jesus, to die for us, to rescue us. God gave up His Son. Hmmmmmmmm. Was God really in peril of losing Jesus forever? If so, what would God have lost if He lost Jesus? His Godhood?

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

aspiring son

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Re: Saved but still need to be saved
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2009, 07:23:38 PM »
Life is very precious to most of us and it should be. Now when a person gives up or risks his very life to selflessly save another, we praise such a person as a hero and rightly so because he gave up or risked something very precious.

I ask respectfully what did God give up or risk to save us? What is most precious to Him? His very Godhood? We teach that God sent His Son, Jesus, to die for us, to rescue us. God gave up His Son. Hmmmmmmmm. Was God really in peril of losing Jesus forever? If so, what would God have lost if He lost Jesus? His Godhood?

cp

The literal concordant says of John 3-16 "For thus God loves the world...."
Meaning this is the manner in which God loves the world.
The Father does love us beyond our imaginations, and Christ was slain before the foundations of the world. Without cold, there is no hot. Without up, there is no down. So without good there is no evil, and vice versa. To have knowledge of good, we had to experiance evil. And since we are fully immersed in sin and our flawed nature, we can and will experianced being immersed in his perfection in Christ. So I don't think God was ever in peril of losing Christ; he was destined to be the victor.
Another analogy is us giving our children their shots when they are infants. The parent dreads seeing their child have to go through pain intentionally, but knows that it is temporary, and knows that it is for the long term well being of the child. It just seems to be the apart of the laws of the universe that God has made.  And in this he is and will be honered by all. So I would say his Godhood will be the most important thing to us all.

Offline claypot

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Re: Saved but still need to be saved
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2009, 12:47:00 AM »
Hey as,

Would you say God risked something to save us?

Did God have any part at all in me needing to be saved?

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Saved but still need to be saved
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2009, 01:06:33 AM »
 :cloud9: Lowered into bondage of corruption says it all for me.........Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

aspiring son

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Re: Saved but still need to be saved
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2009, 01:56:00 PM »
Hey as,

Would you say God risked something to save us?

Did God have any part at all in me needing to be saved?

cp

Well it's apparent that in the state that we are in now, we cannot get out of it ourselves. We cannot awaken ourselves spiritually; in fact, the more we fight and try to awaken ourselves spiritually, the more damage we do-the result being religious pride, which in itself is an addictive poison to the flesh. I'm finding out more and more each day, that the presence of God and the love of God is far beyond our rules, assumptions, our feverish debates, etc. And without him, we would all be doing our religious exercises, puffing ourselves up. And with that being the case, He absolutely has everything to do with us being saved. Hope this answers your question.

Have a blessed day 

Brandon

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Saved but still need to be saved
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2009, 02:01:44 PM »
Hey as,

Would you say God risked something to save us?

Did God have any part at all in me needing to be saved?

cp
No risk at all. Risk is a chance. Jesus was a choice.
What can be risked if you have full control of everything.
Saying God risked something means He gave it His best try. Meaning it could go wrong. Meaning He has limitation to His powers.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline claypot

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Re: Saved but still need to be saved
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2009, 03:03:54 PM »
Hey as,

Would you say God risked something to save us?

Did God have any part at all in me needing to be saved?

cp
No risk at all. Risk is a chance. Jesus was a choice.
What can be risked if you have full control of everything.
Saying God risked something means He gave it His best try. Meaning it could go wrong. Meaning He has limitation to His powers.

I agree WW which tells me there is something else God is doing so I am just asking, seeking and knocking.

If someone saves me at great risk to himself I think I would be more in awe than if someone saves me at no risk to himself, wouldn't you agree? Granted, I would be very thankful to either savior yet I think I would feel more indebted somehow to the one who risked more, wouldn't you?

Nothing risked, nothing gained??????

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline claypot

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Re: Saved but still need to be saved
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2009, 03:09:03 PM »
Hey as,

Would you say God risked something to save us?

Did God have any part at all in me needing to be saved?

cp

Well it's apparent that in the state that we are in now, we cannot get out of it ourselves. We cannot awaken ourselves spiritually; in fact, the more we fight and try to awaken ourselves spiritually, the more damage we do-the result being religious pride, which in itself is an addictive poison to the flesh. I'm finding out more and more each day, that the presence of God and the love of God is far beyond our rules, assumptions, our feverish debates, etc. And without him, we would all be doing our religious exercises, puffing ourselves up. And with that being the case, He absolutely has everything to do with us being saved. Hope this answers your question.

Have a blessed day 

Brandon

Hey Brandon,

Would you say God risked anything to save us? Did He give up something, Someone? If so, can you explain a bit what and how He did?

I agree so much with your points on our feverish debates but God does encourage us to ask, seek and knock and to reason things out with Him so I hope this is all I'm doing.

Would you say God had anything at all to do with causing me to need a savior? Did He 'set the stage' so to speak?

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline claypot

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Re: Saved but still need to be saved
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2009, 03:15:08 PM »
:cloud9: Lowered into bondage of corruption says it all for me.........Blessings....

Hey Card,

I'm not sure what you are saying in regards to God risking something in order to save us or in regards to whether or not God had anything to do with me being a sinner.

Could you please explain more as I do appreciate your thoughts.

I'm thinking that if God had anything to do with me being a sinner and then He saves me, it seems much like the scenario that would have me send a bad guy to bother my wife and then I come and get rid of the bad guy and look the hero to her. Do you understand what I am feebly trying to get at?

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Saved but still need to be saved
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2009, 05:33:49 PM »
 :cloud9: Yeah, I understand what you are saying CP. We were lowered into this bondage of corruption (the flesh 'wrapper') not willingly, BUT HE subjected the same in hope. Our hope is Christ Jesus.

Since Christ came with us here (He said He'd NEVER leave us = no beginning of when He was WASN'T with us, nor forsake us = no ending of Him leaving us), I liken it to your taking your child by the hand and walking them to school in a rough neighborhood because you know they must receive an education to learn to choose the good (God is good).

And of course, knowing that one day that child will mature and thank you for the education they received and the fact you never left them, even though you were not visible standing in the back of the 'classroom', and you were still there to walk them 'home' when the education was over. Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline claypot

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Re: Saved but still need to be saved
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2009, 12:44:01 AM »
:cloud9: Yeah, I understand what you are saying CP. We were lowered into this bondage of corruption (the flesh 'wrapper') not willingly, BUT HE subjected the same in hope. Our hope is Christ Jesus.

Since Christ came with us here (He said He'd NEVER leave us = no beginning of when He was WASN'T with us, nor forsake us = no ending of Him leaving us), I liken it to your taking your child by the hand and walking them to school in a rough neighborhood because you know they must receive an education to learn to choose the good (God is good).

And of course, knowing that one day that child will mature and thank you for the education they received and the fact you never left them, even though you were not visible standing in the back of the 'classroom', and you were still there to walk them 'home' when the education was over. Blessings...

That's good Card.

I guess my curiosity is still leading me to wonder about whether or not God stood to lose anything in saving us? Do you see salvation as a we are sinners, taken by force by some bad force and then God looks over and sees us in trouble and runs to save us risking life and limb to do so? Isn't this how so many view it?

If God had any part in the putting us in the position of needing to be saved then I get a little suspicious of some things. My suspicion causes me to look deeper into what is going on between God and us. Your words help.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

aspiring son

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Re: Saved but still need to be saved
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2009, 03:15:51 AM »
:cloud9: Yeah, I understand what you are saying CP. We were lowered into this bondage of corruption (the flesh 'wrapper') not willingly, BUT HE subjected the same in hope. Our hope is Christ Jesus.

Since Christ came with us here (He said He'd NEVER leave us = no beginning of when He was WASN'T with us, nor forsake us = no ending of Him leaving us), I liken it to your taking your child by the hand and walking them to school in a rough neighborhood because you know they must receive an education to learn to choose the good (God is good).

And of course, knowing that one day that child will mature and thank you for the education they received and the fact you never left them, even though you were not visible standing in the back of the 'classroom', and you were still there to walk them 'home' when the education was over. Blessings...

Good post Card.

Cp I wasn't refering to you with the comment of feverish debates; if we don't ask we don't learn. If we don't knock, the doors don't open.

Grace and peace,

Brandon

Offline claypot

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Re: Saved but still need to be saved
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2009, 04:00:47 AM »
Oh, I know Brandon. No prob.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.