Same Sex marriage

[Stardust75]

I am curious what others thoughts are on same sex marriage being legalized in California. I am feeling greived by it....

[jabcat]

There are apparently many within UR (and much of society) that see it as no big deal, everyone's accepted, no difference between light and darkness, God doesn't notice or care.  I agree with scripture's statements that we will all have our unrighteous works tried and burned, and that during that process all (except perhaps a very few) will suffer some loss, and some will suffer much loss, saved as by fire.  Paul talks about unnatural passions and lifestyles, and states that apparently at some point God will allow such to continue in their sins until judged.  Sin is sin, and I have my share of mine.  I usually attempt for that to not be willing, habitual sin, though I've failed in that area as well.  IMO, choosing to live a homosexual lifestyle, including marriage into what Paul called an "unnatural affection" is sin, as is heterosexual sin that is outside the bounds of God's will.  Yes it is disturbing, and IMO, its acceptance is a negative for our society.  Jesus loved the adulteress, but He apparently didn't approve of her adultery, as He told her to go and sin no more...(only through His grace can any of us stand, as He works His will through us).   God's blessing, James.

By the way, you're brave, and maybe I'm stupid, because this is not popular opinion in many circles  .

[martincisneros]

I am curious what others thoughts are on same sex marriage being legalized in California. I am feeling greived by it....

I'm fighting the temptation to be grieved because I know for a fact that some challenges that I've recently had, physically, were because of unresolved grief.  But were I at the level of health that I'm believing God for, I'd of probably torn my shirt by now, thrown some dirt like a middle eastern person, and would be sitting in my prayer shawl wailing before God over it.  I could philosophically argue anyone into a corner without even referencing St. Paul's epistles on it, which I take very literally, but it's not even worth it any more without having a tangible anointing from the Lord in manifestation to cast that thing out.  After a while, you just know what you're arguing with.  I've been forced to look at this issue for about 10 years because of various people that I've known.  I've heard their arguments for it, but after a while, it's just a mockery of what's right and as St. Paul said, it's often the fruit of an unthankful life.  Some people may try to argue with that and feign a philosophical thankfulness for their lives, their God, their nature, etc., but there's a difference between philosophical thankfulness and the actual practice and spiritual warfare and worship involved in actual thankfulness. 

If there are any married men at these boards that are in a heterosexual marriage, but you struggle with "secret desires," I'm telling you how to cut your way out of that with the Sword of the Spirit.  I'm not casting stones, I'm looking at Romans 1 for the anatomy of this thing and how to run it off in what I'm sharing.  I would add additionally that it also seems to almost universally be rooted in abuse issues and/or in a porn addiction, so work through forgiveness issues and what you allow in front of your eyes and to take up your time in your imagination.

God loves everyone the same, while at the same time loving everyone differently in the way that He appreciates each of the different ways in which He made them.  But at the same time everyone has His entire Heart and all of His eternity for the taking and for the enjoying.  But there are certain roads that the Scriptures point to that lead to death and that one leads to it sooner than most other roads with the average life expectancy of a homosexual being about 41 years of age.  Death from this sin is particularly horrible.  Yes, in Christ shall all be made alive, but it's not worth missing out on being a part of the reign of Christ and the reclaiming of all life everywhere because you couldn't live crucified with Christ.

Since I'm kicking really really hard on this one, in the way that some may look at it, I'll be honest enough to say that I dealt with "secret desires," in my preteens, lest it later be claimed that I'm speaking naively about something that I know nothing about.  YEAH, RIGHT!  I embraced the Lordship of Jesus when I was 14 years old, and it was between 12 and 15 years before I could say that I was completely free of this particular devil.  So, I say it's a devil not just from my Pentecostal upbringing, but as one that fought that damned thing (advisedly said), tooth and nail over the Bread and the Cup of the Lord until that thing had finally turned me loose once and for all.  There's honest to God freedom and purity for your emotions, your mind, your imagination, your past, and your body through Jesus Christ if you're someone who has come to these boards thinking the typical thing about Universalists in any way being connected to Unitarians.  Some Universalists are, but I'm one of the Biblical ones.  Homosexuality is one of the wickedest types of spirits that a human being will ever come in contact with between now and the final restoration of the last prodigal to Father through Christ.  That thing is manipulative, deceptive, philosophical, extremely self-justifying, bottomless in it's lust, bottomless in it's depravity, etc.  And it doesn't have any place whatsoever in a human being using their groin or their colon for it's own personal glory and gratification.

There are apparently many within UR (and much of society) that see it as no big deal, everyone's accepted, no difference between light and darkness, God doesn't notice or care.  I agree with scripture's statements that we will all have our unrighteous works tried and burned, and that during that process all (except perhaps a very few) will suffer some loss, and some will suffer much loss, saved as by fire.  Paul talks about unnatural passions and lifestyles, and states that apparently at some point God will allow such to continue in their sins until judged.  Sin is sin, and I have my share of mine.  I usually attempt for that to not be willing, habitual sin, though I've failed in that area as well.  IMO, choosing to live a homosexual lifestyle, including marriage into what Paul called an "unnatural affection" is sin, as is heterosexual sin that is outside the bounds of God's will.  Yes it is disturbing, and IMO, its acceptance is a negative for our society.  Jesus loved the adulteress, but He apparently didn't approve of her adultery, as He told her to go and sin no more...(only through His grace can any of us stand, as He works His will through us).   God's blessing, James.

By the way, you're brave, and maybe I'm stupid, because this is not popular opinion in many circles  .

Relax, 'cause as usual I did something to make sure that nobody else's goose would get cooked but mine on a topic by sticking my neck out there the furthest and with the biggest bull's eye or cutting outline drawn on it with a marker.  The only reason, as I noted above, that taking a Biblical stand on this sin will seemingly take more heat than a Biblical stand on any other sin is because of the ruler of darkness, or perhaps straight out wicked spirit in heavenly places involved with this one.

If we were talking lies, cheating on taxes, adultery, murder, rape, disobedience to parents, war crimes, or other issues, we genuinely wouldn't feel like we'd really stuck ourselves out there for rejection by our fellow Christians who might even have a difference of opinion on the particulars on any of the other things that could have been brought up instead.  For those who see a gray area here, the fact that this can stir up such an emotional backlash or worse -- that should tell them something about the subject 'cause it's genuinely a worldly "don't go there" that has no basis in reality with how much hatred that it can stir.  The abortion issue comes close, but it still falls short a few orders of magnitude in the area of shock value when you Biblically question societal foregone conclusions on the matter.

I know that neither myself, Jabcat, nor Stardust75 have said what we've said out of any kind of lack of love for anyone.  This is just a polarizing issue.  And some people will never agree with us 'cause their minds are already made up and/or their opinion's been shaped by too many circumstances.

Life isn't one issue, unless you're talking about the issue of Jesus Christ.  Everything else will get sorted out in the resurrection.  That's where I'm getting to these days about different things where people have already got their minds made up and aren't changing without their own version of a burning bush.  All you can do is love people with absolutely everything you've got, maintain your own personal Biblical standards of right and wrong without falling into the Pharisee's trap of picking up stones -- which is a temptation for anyone, even those with less crystal clear convictions about the Bible.  And if not over this issue, then over something else 'cause the twin extremes of licentiousness and Phariseeism are the traps that await us all.  If we've usually fallen into the one, but never into the other -- apart from God's gracious intervention -- the other trap will catch us unawares, if only briefly at some point in our lives.

Though it's as much a sin as any other sin, that's not to say that bad people are caught up in it, from the standpoint of the typical religious caricatures of wicked people or whatever.  The most loving, creative, inspirational and inspiring, the most charming, the most educated, and the most "together" people in every other area of their lives that I've personally ever known or gotten to know were homosexuals/lesbians.  That's one of the reasons why even among many Christians, if you take a Biblical stand on this, then there's a fear that you're actually attacking some of the absolute most wonderful people they know or have known.  That's one of the things that absorbed so many of my own thoughts over the last 10 years about whether or not this was really wrong or just wrong for me personally.  The very first time that I ever fell in love -- she turned out to be a lesbian.  If you don't think that that kind of a personal experience won't mess with your head!!  I didn't know what to think for years after that, although I was determined to treat that as totally inappropriate behaviour on my own part that by God's grace I'd never slip into, and thankfully never did.

Some people would say that that's because the devil goes after the most gifted and the most called in order to bring them down.  A certain amount of that might be true.  A certain amount of that might be something that they slip into because of ego reasons.  Not in every case, but in too many cases you are dealing with above average intelligence, above average talented people, and above average everything else.  So, some of the behavioural side, ignoring the strong compulsions in this direction for just a minute, but just some of the behavioural issues could be people in their youth testing their own inner sense of immortality, in addition to deliberately going after the tabboo.  And again, I'm not talking about the insanity that accompanies this where emotions, thoughts, and hormones are running wild.  Morality is so much a matter of not just what you know, but of who you know, to where I can't help thinking that this is just one more aspect of this confused chain of interwoven psychic realities that we call the relationships that we have in this life.  Not that there's necessarily always someone to jerk people into the behavioural aspect of this without their seeking it out, but my thoughts are running more towards Mark chapter 4 and thinking about word seeds that are something other than the Word Seed of the Kingdom.

There are absolutely no easy solutions to any of our sins and temptations, but, thankfully, we know Who holds our past, present, and future -- our one great "NOW" in the palms of His Hands

[Paul Hazelwood]

One of the reasons that same sex marriage in and of itself does not concern me any more than anything else is because I was raised in a heterosexual environment and I do not see the inherant righteousness  of heterosexuality in any of the abuse I suffered within it.


I am not trying to defy scripture on the subject, I only see that religion has taught us to kneejerk to certain issues so that it becomes some ludicris religious battlefront.

[CHB]

Hi All,

Let me say I am not condoning same sex marriages.

We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. I don't think one sin is any worse than another sin in the eyes of God. The Bible says "if you are guilty of the least, you are guilty of the whole". I don't believe same sex marriages are ok, nor do I think lying is ok, both are sins according to God. I know some people who are gay. I don't see them any more of a sinner than I am. (Rom. 3:19) Bottom of verse, "all the world may become guilty before God". I think the reason same sex marriages seem worse than other sins, is that this sin is displayed for all the world to see. It is out there in plain view without any repentance, or feel sorry about it, from the individuals participating in the act.

Just my

CHB

[97531]

Well here in SA it has been legalised for awhile now yet they still do marches.

I do not condone it and refuse to judge it as one does not know what causes this in the first place.  I would go along with Martin that the origins seem to be rooted in physical abuse in childhood and that IMO is the root that needs to be uprooted.

At the end of the day, I say love these folk as Love covers a multitude of sins.  Confront it and IT feeds of that confrontation.

I am just thankful that IT did not get a hold of me as there was ample opportunity.

Blessings

[Stardust75]

I probaly will not have time to respond until tomorrow. I really want to read in full what you had to say Martin, unfortunately I am pressed for time. I may print it and read it when I am back at work tonight and then I can think of my response. I appreciate what everyone has shared. Personally, I felt very led to pray. Not sure what the outcome of all wil be. My brother is gay, so this hits home very personally. I also had a very good freind from high school is gay, but unfortunately we have lost touch over the years. I think the roots may be both genetic and environmental. My parents had a horrible marriage and my mom was domineering, while my dad was passive...but they both had their moments. My mom was sexually abused as a child. Neither my brother or I have any memories of that happening to us. My friend from highschool had no relationship with his dad and a horrible one with his step dad, and did experience sexual abuse. I have another friend who is gay and a christian and he also had a very poor relationship with his father. So, of the 3 I know personally that are gay, had some affect in the area of abuse and poor relationship with their father. I read an interesting article in newsweek last year on gender and what happens in utero. I will try to go back to that article. What I find interesting is that many homosexuals still take on a male/female bent. One in the relationship is either more masculine and the other more feminine..usually. Another thought I had is maybe there is not a maturing in childhood from that "boys/girls are yucky" stage that all kids go through...more later..

[martincisneros]

In my way of understanding the New Testament and what's going on currently with New Testament exegesis, this is the only sin that people try to get away with doing a shell game on.  People try to blow off Paul's references to this particular issue as simply being references to pagan temple prostitution rather than to what Paul was specifically singling out.  And people who try to say that it wasn't "lifestyle" back then but was only occasionally expressed in religious circles are really really naïve about the Greek and Roman worlds, and about the ancient world in general.  There's absolutely no new lifestyles or genetic predispositions "under the sun," unless the government is admitting to having monkeyed with the water supply or the food supply with some new chemical that's heightening these types of inclinations by several orders of magnitude. 

As my thinking this year seems to be clarifying along these lines in a way that it hasn't been so clear or black and white in previous years, it's amazing how people will single out this sin that's mentioned in the New Testament and try to do the shell game that says: "That doesn't really mean that.  St. Paul was only talking about temple prostitution."  Do we do very much of that kind of toying with the precepts of Jesus Christ with other things that the New Testament calls out our decadent society on?  "Thou shalt not murder" and "Thou shalt not lie" isn't relegated by a single credible theologian to only talking about either the military or to Church.  But people recognize the universal applicability of those precepts regardless of the building or type of religious company that one is in the presence of.  It would be wrong to do this in pagan temples, but at home, this is perfectly fine? 

I'm just contending for New Testament Christianity.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.  Paul in Romans 1 wasn't speaking specifically to a type of pagan deity because he never mentions either Artemis or Aphrodite, or any particular type of worship of other gods.  If a pagan theology or worship were being singled out by St. Paul it would be the theory that says: "You do what's right for you.  Only you can decide what's right for you.  If it feels good, do it.  If you're not aware of it harming anyone, go for it."  St. Paul calls us to a higher level of awareness that we're not self-created and that Someone has Something to Say about all of this! 

In St. Paul's way of thinking, this is entry-level Christianity to realize that you're not your own, but you've been bought with a price and all that you say or do is only supposed to be for the glory of God – instead of for self-gratification.  I'll agree that it's a peculiar way of starting an epistle, but there's got to be a reason why the Holy Spirit would have seen fit to have started Paul's epistles with such a blatant poke in the eyes for so many people.  As he says elsewhere about any kind of sexual sin whatsoever, and not just homosexual acts: "every other sin that one commits is generally outside of a direct connection to the body, but this type of behaviour specifically targets the body."

I'm comforted by the fact that Jesus Christ isn't going to leave these people in their deception and in perhaps very many situations you're talking about just straight out possession of some of these people.  Particularly the ones that at least emotionally are to the killing point over the right to get to do this, or to try to force all of the rest of us to embrace this as an acceptable alternative.  A lot of these people aren't content with "live and let live."  There's straight out an agenda at work to try to force all of us to place our blessing upon this.  And I wish that people that invest so much time in conspiracy theories like what happened on 9/11 in the United States back in 2001, or people who think that the government has been responsible for some presidential assassinations – I wish those people would look into this conspiracy 'cause they're working to invade the school textbooks with stories of children with two dads or two moms and how wonderful this has always been, or how this is somehow comparable to the Civil Rights movement in the United States.  And I know of dozens of African Americans that deeply resent the attempted connection that some people are trying to make between those two issues in an attempt to legitimize homosexuality.

Jesus Christ can be fully expected to clarify all of the confusion.  We can rely upon Him with everything that we've got to clarify all of the misconceptions of His own alleged homosexuality, which some homosexuals are trying to assert in the name of scholarship.  Trust me.  Jesus Christ is a man and has been a Biblically observant Jew Who has always followed all of the commandments and ways of His heavenly Father blamelessly.  He turns the cheek on some things, but this is an insult that won't go unaddressed.  We can count on Him to take special notice of the attempts to make Him the poster-boy for this sin.  Trust me!  He's motivated by love and not by personal ego, but this is an area that touches His Anointing.  This has direct baring on the image that each of us are being conformed to, since we're each predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. 

While any of us think that there's confusion on His part about this issue, then to that degree and that many of us will be confused about this situation.  But He's not the least bit confused about what He made each person to be and to become.  He won't allow this kind of confusion to continue unanswered.  And the stories of Amazing Grace that are going to come out of that are going to be deeply touching, comforting, and endearing of the multitudes and multitudes towards Him and His Gospel.  He won't cast any stones as some religious conservatives are hoping that He would.  And He's not going to have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah, in the Conservative Evangelical way of looking at it, because He's going to restore each and every single one of them.  YOU CAN COUNT ON HIS GRACE TO BE MORE THAN EQUAL TO THE SITUATION.

[martincisneros]

Another thought I had is maybe there is not a maturing in childhood from that "boys/girls are yucky" stage that all kids go through...more later..

I had never thought of that before in my life, and yet there genuinely is that level of underdevelopment present in just about every gay or lesbian that I've ever known!  I have to tread softly on amening this observation 'cause it's not a reflection upon a lack of cognitive development.  Some of these people on quite a few issues would totally eat our lunch in a debate.  I don't know what to call it, but you're right, Stardust75, about that.  A lack of a full personality development??  And yet, every gay and lesbian that I've ever known has been the life of the party with more than their fair share of personality and charm.  Oooo, I wish I knew what to call this.  It's not an imbalance, but there is a small area of personality development that never matured in many, many people who are caught up in this.  I don't know if this is universally applicable, but in every gay person that I've ever known there's been a deep distrust of authority figures.  Which might take you back to abuse issues or just early relationships that weren't all that they should have minimally been.  At the same time, authority figures to an exaggerated degree can be a part of the kink.  So, there's definitely the complexity of issues here that you'd expect with anybody else.

I personally love all of these people very deeply with a very fervent love, even if the Holy Spirit is leading me to be "out of the closet" with having a very decidedly Biblical stand against all of this "lifestyle" which is NOT an acceptable alternative for a single being in all of God's Creation.  There's absolutely no place for it in the New Creation either, although God will not eternally abandon a single person anywhere who is caught up in this and either dealing with suicidal depression issues -- or in their own thinking "having the time of their lives" which is always short-lived.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Maybe homosexuals are fighting for the right to struggle or live life in general without getting the crap beat out of em or condemned to hell.

[martincisneros]

Maybe homosexuals are fighting for the right to struggle or live life in general without getting the crap beat out of em or condemned to hell.

There's absolutely no maybe about it.  That's exactly what they're doing, and I support them as human beings, as fellow citizens, and as brothers and sisters to that degree without question.

[Reverend G]

Martin....I must say I admire your candor as well as your commentary.  I do think that your  ideas on this are correct, even as to the "why" of the situation.  It has been a long time since I did any reading on the topic, but I do remember a study done with identical twins, that concluded that genetics was not the issue.  I firmly believe it is a nurture issue rather than a nature issue.

I did suffer a bit of abuse myself at the hands of a childhood friends sibling, when I was very young.  And though at times I did suffer those "secret desires" you speak of, my personal reactions were actually adverse in a different way.  I shrugged off the abuse, I thought, but as I grew into adolescence I found myself "proving" to myself that it wasn't "me" that was the problem.  I did this through numerous "conquests" with the opposite sex, which of course proved nothing and was sinful of itself.  The only time the "secret desires" arose was when I wasn't making enough "conquests" and doubted my own sexuality.  It took me many years and too many of those conquests to finally realize I was still running from something that I didn't really understand all those years ago.  The more I had grown to understand what had happened, the more fearful I got, and had to "prove" myself.  I was blaming myself for someone else's deeds, and trying to "fix" a me that wasn't broken.  Fortunately, today I am a happily married, doubt-free heterosexual man.

[Paul]

Of course it should be legal. People need to mind their business and live and let live. What I do think should be illegal is gay couples adopting children.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Of course it should be legal. People need to mind their business and live and let live. What I do think should be illegal is gay couples adopting children.

I think in respect to a POV it would be hard to explain why this country should not mind Gay couples but then explain why you would mind them adopting children.

I come from a home life that would be honored by Christians.  The faithful Dad and Mom diligently making their children go to church anytime the door is open and not sparing the ROD of correction , trust me they did not spare it at all.

I was beat and justifiably so by any christian that had ever met my parents as what could be wrong with such faithful God fearing heterosexual parents keeping their kid in line?

I realize that was a bit of an emotional ploy on my part.   My point is that the morality of this specific issue is usually a hypocritical view.

When the Christians rail against their membership of overeaters, among other things, equally, I will concede my point.

[jabcat]

IMO, one thing being unscriptural and not talked about, doesn't make the other thing OK and need to be left alone.  Our point of reference is accurately translated, Spirit-revealed scripture.  My POV is  that if I beat and rail against my child for lying, stealing, whatever, as I see it, then we've both sinned..one not negating or overshadowing the other.  The same scripture that underlines active homosexuality as sin, also points out "do not provoke your children to wrath", and speaks out against gluttony ...it tells us to love the person but not condone the sin...which is good, because we all have sin and all need to be loved.  We don't have to be harsh or abusive to contend for sound doctrine...carefully, gently, because God may teach me something a little different about it tomorrow...IMO, the problem is not the seeking and speaking of spiritual truths, but more often it's my own self-righteousness and judmentalness that can really be the problem.  Speak the truth in love...big task for me, but a very worthwile goal.  I guess for me, what God is working with me on right now is, accept and love the person, but don't lose sight of God's better way and better plan(s)...and give them a hand to get there if we can.  God's blessing, James.

[Paul Hazelwood]

IMO, the problem is not the seeking and speaking of spiritual truths, but more often it's my own self-righteousness and judmentalness that can really be the problem.  Speak the truth in love...big task for me, but a very worthwile goal.  I guess for me, what God is working with me on right now is, accept and love the person, but don't lose sight of God's better way and better plan(s)...and give them a hand to get there if we can.  God's blessing, James.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that we should condone anything in particular, but hypocrisy is also something we should not ignore.

[jabcat]

Amen to that.  And that can be an ugly thing that for a little while can feel good to us, but the end is destruction.  I've especially had my fatherly spankings over having a bad attitude, including not loving enough...thanks for clarifying.  God's blessing, James.

[reFORMer]

We were born into other men's homes,
raised in their schools of thought;
we are victims of their sins and
subjected to their gods.
We are like a child, pregnant from rape,
who has never know the caresses of a true love.

Until we get beyond all this,
we can not even find the starting line.



---James Rohde