Reincarnation a devil's lie ?Is it acceptable from a Christian point of view?

[Molly]

What passages TT?

[CHB]

Reincarnation is not a doctrine offered or taught in the teaching of Jesus Christ.

The very basis of Christianity (and many other religions) is reincarnation.
Doesn't the Bible speak of resurrection into perfected bodies? That's reincarnation. Pre-existance. That's 3 incarnations already.

Yes, but aren't we all going to be ourselves, not something or someone else?

From a Biblical point of view who exactly is CHB? The person I can see, hear and touch? Or the spirit/life that is inside the body that's currently called CHB? The Bible calls our body a garment of the spirit.
If you buy a new dress today does it mean you no longer are CHB?

Hi ww,

This is kind of what I was saying. In the next life I will still be me, not someone or something else as reincarnation seems to be.

Then you misunderstood me. I think 

Who are you from a Biblical pov CHB?
a] A person of flesh and blood?
b] A spirit with a CHB coat?

If your answer is b].... I believe you are a woman? Say your spirit if put in a huge man.
Then what are you?
c] A new creation?
d] Same spirit with another coat?

Yes, I believe I did misunderstand you. I see what you mean but nevertheless I will still be me and look the same. Doesn't reincarnation mean that you become some one different or something different? You are right in saying that we will put on a coat so to speak. It will just be a spiritual coat but it will be the same me as I am now and I believe we will be recognizable to everyone. I think we will look just like we do now.. {God forbid}.. but we will just be in spiritual bodies. 

OK, say I die and come back as a monkey, are you saying , I will look like a monkey except inside I will be CHB?    Are you saying that we will still be human, or can we be something else?  Now, why would God need to do all of that?

Jesus was resurrected. People didn't recognize Him. He didn't look exactly as before.
e] It wasn't Jesus at all.
f] It was the spirit of Jesus with a new coat

Yes, but why do you think that was? Jesus was beaten so bad he had skin hanging from his body. His face was so marred that he was unrecognizable. I guess if we chose to look different we could if we are spiritual beings, I don't know.

Say by some freak accident you and your husband switch bodies.
Your mind in his body and his mind in your body.
Who are you?
g] The CHB coat you are no longer wearing?
h] Any coat your spirit wears? (the coat you call husband)

Not a chance.

CHB

[thinktank]

Whitewings has some passages and I wrote some earlier in this forum. Here is a more recent one I was talking about

Matthew 16:28 (King James Version)
 28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

I don't understand this passage, unless maybe they were people there that had Saul experinces, perhaps Paul the Saul himself was there. But from reincarnation pov they reincarnate until the end of time, when Jesus returns, then .....their soul dies, maybe because they are cast into the LOF and that fire destroys the evil in their soul.

[WhiteWings]

it is quite similar to the soul sleep vs immortal soul/ and/or immortal spirit battle, where there seems to be contradictory passages.

Mmmm, what if soul sleep is part of reincarnation....?
I posted a few verses that seem to say a person inherits his/her own sin. That's always in a later generation.
Let me give an example.
A father dies and is scheduled for reincarnation. He's reincarnated in his grandson that's born 3 years after his death. Where/how does that spirit wait?
Maybe in a soul sleep?
But you are very right when you mentioned that there seem to be certain contradiction. And reincarnation doesn't solve them.
Assuming there are no major translation/copying errors in the Bible those contradictions can only exist due to our wrong understanding.
And the only way to solve them is look outside the box called doctrine....

[Molly]

I post a few verses that seem to say a person inherits his/her own sin. That's always in a later generation.

Maybe you are describing Hell.   

[thinktank]

OK, say I die and come back as a monkey, are you saying , I will look like a monkey except inside I will be CHB?    Are you saying that we will still be human, or can we be something else?  Now, why would God need to do all of that?


If you came back as a monkey you would generally have monkey thoughts, nice banana etc, but your spirit would still be there, you would have your drive, will power, determination etc, since you would have a monkey brain and a monkey upbringing it is unlikely that you would sit down and watch your past favourite tv channel. Although some animals do exhibit certain strange human behaviour, such as "watching tv".

But generally coming back as an animal , I think is to low for a human being and reincarnation from a biblical stand point does not neccessarily mean that animals are involved. But God did take a very peculiar route to rescue Adam from sin, almost as if, after Adam took the tree of knowledge, Adam now lived in another dimension, in another world, where he was seperate from God, and only Christ could come and save him and his decendants. Reincarnation makes sense in the regard that we are or were lost in a cycle of death, till Jesus came to save us from death so that we go from this world, back to his world. Maybe those who do not accept Jesus as saviour, remain in this world of death an must lose his current soul, then reincarnate over again, a fresh new start, but also in bondage to death and a slave to sin, so unless one accpets christ then perhaps they are continually reincarnating, making the same mistakes of rejecting christ, being in bondage to sin and therefore death

Romans 8
Life Through the Spirit
 1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

 5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you.

 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[f] And by him we cry, "Abba,[g] Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

[WhiteWings]

Then you misunderstood me. I think 

Who are you from a Biblical pov CHB?
a] A person of flesh and blood?
b] A spirit with a CHB coat?

If your answer is b].... I believe you are a woman? Say your spirit if put in a huge man.
Then what are you?
c] A new creation?
d] Same spirit with another coat?[/quote]

Yes, I believe I did misunderstand you. I see what you mean but nevertheless I will still be me and look the same. Doesn't reincarnation mean that you become some one different or something different? You are right in saying that we will put on a coat so to speak. It will just be a spiritual coat but it will be the same me as I am now and I believe we will be recognizable to everyone. I think we will look just like we do now.. {God forbid}.. but we will just be in spiritual bodies. 

OK, say I die and come back as a monkey,
[/quote]Maybe I should clear up a few things first. I did post something about a Jewish belief that people get many chances and if it keeps going wrong the reincarnation is a lower lifeform everytime. Then it ends and sinner becomes dust.
What I answered to that post is what fits here very well too. How can a monkey correct any mistake when it can hardly think?
I can understand that a murderer can undo the damage by becoming a very caring person in the next life. But a monkey that only has two thought in his life. Sleep and eat a bananna....

are you saying , I will look like a monkey except inside I will be CHB?   

I think this must a learning experience from a past life when I was really rude to women. Lemme think.... Crap I feel another reincarnation coming 
Seriously, I can see the use of reincarnting as a person but not as an animal. Unless science is very very wrong about the metal capacity of animals...
So my answer is: In your next live you will be an angel too.

Are you saying that we will still be human, or can we be something else?  Now, why would God need to do all of that?

You are asking a lot of questions that are not in the verses. My answer is  a question: Why didn't God create us directly into heaven? Skip all this earth stuff. Just be created as perfect sinless spirits. Why?

Jesus was resurrected. People didn't recognize Him. He didn't look exactly as before.
e] It wasn't Jesus at all.
f] It was the spirit of Jesus with a new coat

Yes, but why do you think that was? Jesus was beaten so bad he had skin hanging from his body. His face was so marred that he was unrecognizable. I guess if we chose to look different we could if we are spiritual beings, I don't know.

You can do better CHB....
Say your husband gets a really bad accident. Car crash every bone broken. 50% burn wounds. He dies a few days later. A month later I show you a year old picture of your husband. Would you recognise him? Do you think he people that knew Him for at least 3 years forgot how He looked 4 days ago?

Say by some freak accident you and your husband switch bodies.
Your mind in his body and his mind in your body.
Who are you?
g] The CHB coat you are no longer wearing?
h] Any coat your spirit wears? (the coat you call husband)

Not a chance.

That's not a real answer...
Try to answer my 3 questions. Who exactly are you....
My answers are b/d/f/h
Yours?

[WhiteWings]

If you came back as a monkey you would generally have monkey thoughts, nice banana etc,

That may be true for monkies TT. I'm sure that the thoughts of a politician stay teh same after reincarnation as a snake

But generally coming back as an animal , I think is to low for a human being and reincarnation from a biblical stand point does not neccessarily mean that animals are involved.

Exactly. If the verses are really about reincarnation they are about mankind. The 3rd generation of a human is a human. Not a monkey.

[Molly]

Lamentations 5:7, "Our fathers have sinned, and are not; and we have borne (been punished for) their iniquities."


"In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge."

--Jeremiah 31:29-30


 "What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel."
--Ezekiel 18:2-3

[Nathan]

This is an uncomfortable topic for me.  I believe the idea of reincarnation is man's conclusion to God's spiirtual purposes.  I do believe that we "become" a new creation.  But I don't believe that we'll become a different form, that comes back as a different form, that comes back as a different form.  and I definitely don't agree that we'll come back anything less than human.  We were created in God's image . . .animals, objects are not God's image . . .

I don't see how reincarnation magnifies the cross.  I see it turn more into a distraction from the cross than anything.  What it seems to do mostly is raise more questions.  Questions often lead to distractions.  By pursuing all the knowledge that's out there on reincarnation, does it lead me closer to, further from or no change at all with my relationship with the Father?  For me, the emphasis goes from Christ to "my" past identities.  Being a follower of Christ seems to become a secondary issue.

What is my identity then?  Is my identity according to my past lives?  My success in this life?  My hope for the next life?  The assumption is that when you find Christ, your karma is broken and the repetition of returning to this life ends.  "If" it's Biblical, why isn't it plainly there?  It appears that one would have to add in a lot of assumptions to make it work. 

I saw a comment about one of the "what ifs" dealing with the idea that if you were a man in a past life and are a woman now . . .or vise-versa . . .is that then the explanation of why people are born gay?  And does that now mean being gay is now also acceptable by God as well?

WW, you stated . ..
You are asking a lot of questions that are not in the verses. My answer is  a question: Why didn't God create us directly into heaven? Skip all this earth stuff. Just be created as perfect sinless spirits. Why?

I find this an interesting question because I believe God "did" create us directly into heaven.  Or at least he placed Adam in it immediately after he created him.  But because Adam chose to live under the realm, in the tree of knowledge, that's the realm we now are also born into until we become born again ourselves, which is only a gateway to be able to see into the spiritual principles from which we originally came from


At the same time, I've found on too many occasions that I have adopted and embraced beliefs that seemed to make all the sense in the world to me at the time, only to turn around and walk away from them.  So I'm not going to say with total absolution that this is a horribly false notion.  Because God's ways are just too crazy for my mind to keep up with.  But for where I am right now . . .it just doesn't seem to mesh with the patterns and principles that I see where all things point to Christ.   Reincarnation doesn't seem to point to Christ, it just points to a progression of life on this earth.

[CHB]

This is an uncomfortable topic for me.  I believe the idea of reincarnation is man's conclusion to God's spiirtual purposes.  I do believe that we "become" a new creation.  But I don't believe that we'll become a different form, that comes back as a different form, that comes back as a different form.  and I definitely don't agree that we'll come back anything less than human.  We were created in God's image . . .animals, objects are not God's image . . .

I don't see how reincarnation magnifies the cross.  I see it turn more into a distraction from the cross than anything.  What it seems to do mostly is raise more questions.  Questions often lead to distractions.  By pursuing all the knowledge that's out there on reincarnation, does it lead me closer to, further from or no change at all with my relationship with the Father?  For me, the emphasis goes from Christ to "my" past identities.  Being a follower of Christ seems to become a secondary issue.

What is my identity then?  Is my identity according to my past lives?  My success in this life?  My hope for the next life?  The assumption is that when you find Christ, your karma is broken and the repetition of returning to this life ends.  "If" it's Biblical, why isn't it plainly there?  It appears that one would have to add in a lot of assumptions to make it work. 

I saw a comment about one of the "what ifs" dealing with the idea that if you were a man in a past life and are a woman now . . .or vise-versa . . .is that then the explanation of why people are born gay?  And does that now mean being gay is now also acceptable by God as well?

WW, you stated . ..
You are asking a lot of questions that are not in the verses. My answer is  a question: Why didn't God create us directly into heaven? Skip all this earth stuff. Just be created as perfect sinless spirits. Why?

I find this an interesting question because I believe God "did" create us directly into heaven.  Or at least he placed Adam in it immediately after he created him.  But because Adam chose to live under the realm, in the tree of knowledge, that's the realm we now are also born into until we become born again ourselves, which is only a gateway to be able to see into the spiritual principles from which we originally came from


At the same time, I've found on too many occasions that I have adopted and embraced beliefs that seemed to make all the sense in the world to me at the time, only to turn around and walk away from them.  So I'm not going to say with total absolution that this is a horribly false notion.  Because God's ways are just too crazy for my mind to keep up with.  But for where I am right now . . .it just doesn't seem to mesh with the patterns and principles that I see where all things point to Christ.   Reincarnation doesn't seem to point to Christ, it just points to a progression of life on this earth.

What Nathan said. 

CHB

[thinktank]

It may not important to the faith as such, but does help explain things, it might be a key piece that unlocks other key pieces, to discount it, because of fear or whatever, might lose, potential riches and mysterious knowledge about Gods plan.

I don't see that reincarnation means we will continually do such a thing for eternity, because God promises for us in Christ that we will receive immortal bodies that will not die, but this promise might not be for those who reject him, until the fullness of time, when God becomes all in all.

[micah7:9]

INCARNATE 1) endowed with a body, esp. a human body; in bodily form.
Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
Joh 10:30  I and the Father are one.'
Heb. 1:1-4
God was "incarnate" in His Son Jesus in a body of flesh.
1Co 15:40  and there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but one is the glory of the heavenly, and another that of the earthly;
1Co 15:41  one glory of sun, and another glory of moon, and another glory of stars, for star from star doth differ in glory.
1Co 15:42  So also is the rising again of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;
1Co 15:43  it is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Co 15:44  it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;
1Co 15:45  so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,
1Co 15:46  but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.When we are changed, is it is not a "re-incarnation" we will not be incarnate.
John 4:24 "God is Spirit."

We will not be reincarnated, for as far as I can tell that means we will have a human body(which from what I can tell is a "soul" and a soul is a living, breathing creature, something that can die, and that we wont do, for we will be deathless.
1Co 15:51  lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed;
1Co 15:52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we--we shall be changed:
1Co 15:53  for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality;
1Co 15:54  and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, `The Death was swallowed up--to victory;
1Co 15:55  where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'
1Co 15:56  and the sting of the death is the sin, and the power of the sin the law;
1Co 15:57  and to God--thanks, to Him who is giving us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ;
GOD IS SPIRIT
and that is what we will be SPIRIT.

AND THAT AINT REINCARNATION,  reincarnation is a faithless teaching of men without hope.

[thinktank]

I see there is another arguement here and that is whether man has an immortal spirit. I guess unless one does not belive one has a immortal spirit, or these days people incorrectly refer to it as an immortal soul, hence confusion arises on this topic. But unless you believe man has an imortal spirit, then reincarnation is seemingly impossible. So we would have to argue about the immortality of the spirit of man, before we discuss reincarnation.

[Molly]

reincarnation is a faithless teaching of men without hope

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
--Rom 8

Praise God!

[WhiteWings]

reincarnation is a faithless teaching of men without hope.

A statement of an insecure person who likely didn't even dare to read the thread.

[WhiteWings]

What Nathan said. 

Don't chicken out C.
Answer my questions like I answered yours.
If you can't answer them then you can't even have a opinion on reincarnation.

[jabcat]

reincarnation is a faithless teaching of men without hope.

A statement of an insecure person who likely didn't even dare to read the thread.

micah might have stated "in my opinion", which might have come across a little better,  but I don't think disagreeing or having a different opinion necessarily means one is afraid or insecure, does it?   

[WhiteWings]

reincarnation is a faithless teaching of men without hope.

A statement of an insecure person who likely didn't even dare to read the thread.

micah might have stated "in my opinion", which might have come across a little better,  but I don't think disagreeing or having a different opinion necessarily means one is afraid or insecure, does it?   

Sure opinions are what a forum is about. But I had hoped the opions are supported with a few verses. Or some reasoning that's not already discussed.

[jabcat]

I understand :)

[micah7:9]

reincarnation is a faithless teaching of men without hope.

A statement of an insecure person who likely didn't even dare to read the thread.

You are correct that I did not bother to read the thread, I find the pagan aspects and opinions of reincarnation found on a supposedly christian forum worthless for spiritual growth.
Why would anyone who is a beleiver even bother to deleve into the subject? I am sure there are other religions who accept that kind of thinking? Why not go that site a debate the issue.
As for being insecure, not so. The Lord has simply showed me the fruitlessness of such endeavors.

[WhiteWings]

reincarnation is a faithless teaching of men without hope.

A statement of an insecure person who likely didn't even dare to read the thread.

You are correct that I did not bother to read the thread,

So you judge something you have no clue what it's about. A good step to increase knowledge...

I find the pagan aspects and opinions of reincarnation found on a supposedly christian forum worthless for spiritual growth.

So there are pagan verses in the OT and NT? Your claims of pagan aspect are based on nothing. Just because pagan religions have certain concepts it doesn't mean it can't be a Christian concept also. Just because the pagan Greeks had a god the God of the Bible is a pagan concept too?

Why would anyone who is a beleiver even bother to deleve into the subject? I am sure there are other religions who accept that kind of thinking? Why not go that site a debate the issue.

Why would anyone who claims to be a believer is scared away by HS inspired verses?
Why don't you go to a forum that only discusses things that fit in your little box?

As for being insecure, not so. The Lord has simply showed me the fruitlessness of such endeavors.

Yeah sure. I got a phone call of the HS today and He told me to keep looking because the verse posted in this thread are real...

[micah7:9]

Yes the verses you posted are real and if one wishs and has the desire to find what they want and desire to find in those verses to prove what that have a desire to see in them, they will see it.
And should you have really received a call from the (HS) as you call the Holy Spirit, then I believe you would quit this silliness.
INCARNATE 1) endowed with a body, esp. a human body; in bodily form.

"So you judge something you have no clue what it's about. A good step to increase knowledge..."
I am not judging I am saying the subject should be disregarded it has nothing to do with faith.
There was a great deal of pagan thinking/teaching taken out of Egypt that had mingled with the Israelites and the beliefs God had established, that does not make them anything less than pagan.
"Just because pagan religions have certain concepts it doesn't mean it can't be a Christian concept also."

Thus the fire of the Holy Spirit, the two edged sword, the refiners fire, the Lake of fire to get rid of that dross, wood, hay, and stubble. If dabbling in such things is your desire dabble away, I will not involve it with faith.

[WhiteWings]

Yes the verses you posted are real and if one wishs and has the desire to find what they want and desire to find in those verses to prove what that have a desire to see in them, they will see it.

If someone doesn't want to see it s/he will not see it. So it doesn't prove right or wrong. A blinded person never knows s/he blinded.

And should you have really received a call from the (HS) as you call the Holy Spirit, then I believe you would quit this silliness.
INCARNATE 1) endowed with a body, esp. a human body; in bodily form.

Since you seem to overlook subtle hints: For me it has zero value if someone claims s/he got a revelation from God.
Why? Simply because the Internet is swarming with Christians that claim to have recieved inspiration. Weirdly enough many have opposing views. Many on this forum were once very sure about ET. It was just a fact.
Then they find UR and after a while they fall in the same trap of knowing things as a fact.

"So you judge something you have no clue what it's about. A good step to increase knowledge..."
I am not judging I am saying the subject should be disregarded it has nothing to do with faith.

That is judged by saying the whole thread/concept is a lie. Pagan concepts. On Christian forum pagan is not a positive term. Not to say an insult.

There was a great deal of pagan thinking/teaching taken out of Egypt that had mingled with the Israelites and the beliefs God had established, that does not make them anything less than pagan.

Correct. But the verses quoted are from a Bible not from Egyptian writings. The Jews are misguided. Not the HS.

Thus the fire of the Holy Spirit, the two edged sword, the refiners fire, the Lake of fire to get rid of that dross, wood, hay, and stubble. If dabbling in such things is your desire dabble away, I will not involve it with faith.

But you involved yourself by judging this thread a several times. I would say if you don't like a thread either totally ignore it or make your participation fruitful by for example posting verses that totally refute the idea of reincarnation.
Refuting with verses 
Judging without even bothering to read 

[micah7:9]

Go ahead and do your thing. You ae correct about one thing for sure, I should have stayed out of it especially after I read your verses.