Author Topic: Reincarnation a devil's lie ?Is it acceptable from a Christian point of view?  (Read 9302 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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I believe the same thing, and I don't believe in reincarnation.
Based on what?
I can state I know 100% sure reincarnation is true. But what's the use of such a statement without any verse to support the idea?
There are several verses that hint toward reincarnation. So to declare reincarnation umbilical with much certainty there should be at least one verse to support that idea I would say.

The fact that Jesus died on the cross neither proves or disproves reincarnation imo.
It's possibly even connected with LoF.
 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Aleax

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:cloud9: Doctrines that do not originate from His Spirit, have a corresponding spirit of their own. Satan is the FATHER of lies = "progeny".

So is there an eternal torchery spirit, too?
Behold, I make a few things new.

The Plan of The Ages: God's Unfailing Love Revealed in the Cross

Offline jabcat

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I believe the same thing, and I don't believe in reincarnation.
Based on what?
I can state I know 100% sure reincarnation is true. But what's the use of such a statement without any verse to support the idea?
There are several verses that hint toward reincarnation. So to declare reincarnation umbilical with much certainty there should be at least one verse to support that idea I would say.

The fact that Jesus died on the cross neither proves or disproves reincarnation imo.
It's possibly even connected with LoF.
 :2c:

Based on I know of absolutely no scriptures that would clearly back up the idea.  If there's scriptural backing that's clear I haven't seen it.   To be clear, my definition of reincarnation is coming back in this life over and over, likely in different entities/beings to "get it right".  Again, I just see no scriptural proof, and I have no other reasons to believe it.  I believe correction in this one life for some, then in the next age for the rest - not over and over in this age, as in different bodies/animals, etc.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline micah7:9

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Reincarnation is not a doctrine offered or taught in the teaching of Jesus Christ.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 07:26:31 AM by micah7:9 »
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Based on I know of absolutely no scriptures that would clearly back up the idea.  If there's scriptural backing that's clear I haven't seen it.
I've shown several verses.

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To be clear, my definition of reincarnation is coming back in this life over and over,
That's your personal idea of reincarnation. Not what is the listed verses.

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likely in different entities/beings to "get it right".  Again, I just see no scriptural proof, and I have no other reasons to believe it.  I believe correction in this one life for some, then in the next age for the rest
What if reincarnation is the next age?

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- not over and over in this age, as in different bodies/
You mean John the Baptist being Elijah....


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animals, etc.
I didn't speak of animals.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Reincarnation is not a doctrine offered or taught in the teaching of Jesus Christ.
The very basis of Christianity (and many other religions) is reincarnation.
Doesn't the Bible speak of resurrection into perfected bodies? That's reincarnation. Pre-existance. That's 3 incarnations already.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

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For someone who calls them self a believer and filled with the Holy Spirit to even consider reincarnation as part of God's plan shows just how small your faith and understanding of His Word is. I am not sorry if that offends the brethren on this site. For myself there has been much knowledge and insight that has been offered and received from most of you, for this I am thankfull to you and the Lord. It is evident that I am no longer invited into the discussions on this forum and that is ok. If I am in error of that statement, I will recant. I have read and have found the teachings of Gary to be very fruitfull as his writings show he has been led to study and teach out side of the denominal and religious fundamental teachings and opinioned therory.
I am not what you call your selves UR. I believe in Christ crucified, that it is His blood that is cleanising of all sin. I believe that Jesus is the Savior of the whole world and that it is good and acceptable that all men will be saved. I believe that the Words that Jesus spoke are Spirit and Life. I believe that life more abundantly is not living alive now, on this earth breathing breath that is but to die. Life more abundantly is ALIVE IN THE SPIRIT, which is just what Jesus offered then and now. I believe that religion, denominations, mans teachings and docrtines and ceremonies have tethered believers to these lower realms. I believe that The Lord moved in the past and brought men up higher and were given revelations to the teachers that brought believers even higher, but as we can see from this past from the OT till now, He brings us to that place where all seems that this is place of the vision (Hab.2:3) and then men stop and build on the new teachings and some of the old and the heavenly growth stops, the Spiritual acsending to come up higher(Rev.4:1) ceases and the believers settle for the joys of that level that fill us and we become lethargic and lukewarm thinking that we have made it somewhere, when the journey upward still awaits those who have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying...Rev 22:17  And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing--let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting--let him come; and he who is willing--let him take the water of life freely.
I have not recieved any more knowledge than anyone else, I have been given no more insight that any of the brethren other than being told that we need to lay aside the old things and know that He is doing a NEW thing....Isa 43:19  Lo, I am doing a new thing, now it springeth up, Do ye not know it? Yea, I put in a wilderness a way, In a desolate place--floods.
Praise the Wonderfull and Beautifull Name of JESUS.

I enjoy your point of views and questions, I like your, more grounded, scriptural style, I get tired sometimes of the often posted symbolic new agey stuff here. I also enjoy the writings of Gary and his audios give me faith in saving all people.

I find your hissy fits entertaining too  :bigGrin: , for me that is rare.
 

Offline CHB

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Reincarnation is not a doctrine offered or taught in the teaching of Jesus Christ.
The very basis of Christianity (and many other religions) is reincarnation.
Doesn't the Bible speak of resurrection into perfected bodies? That's reincarnation. Pre-existance. That's 3 incarnations already.

Yes, but aren't we all going to be ourselves, not something or someone else?  John wasn't actually Elijah he just had the state of quality of being that Elijah had, kind of like Jesus was the second Adam but he was the opposite in personality and power. Did that make Jesus Adam? No.

CHB

Offline thinktank

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Some interesting discoveries you have raised here whitewings. The idea of reincarnation does not appeal to the christian mindset, but it could be true nevertheless. The hope is that whatever one did in the old incarnated life, that is now in the past and the new life is now.

Here is some random points why reincarnation could be true

Human race has evolved, we now have more knowledge. So what has changed?. Has God changed?

Jesus said "I tell you that there be some standing here which will not taste of death till they see the son of man come with his holy angels"

Apart from reincarnation how else can this be fullfilled? I have looked at this verse from multiple angles and cannot find an answer to it, except that it may refer to reincarnation.

Offline WhiteWings

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Reincarnation is not a doctrine offered or taught in the teaching of Jesus Christ.
The very basis of Christianity (and many other religions) is reincarnation.
Doesn't the Bible speak of resurrection into perfected bodies? That's reincarnation. Pre-existance. That's 3 incarnations already.
Yes, but aren't we all going to be ourselves, not something or someone else?
From a Biblical point of view who exactly is CHB? The person I can see, hear and touch? Or the spirit/life that is inside the body that's currently called CHB? The Bible calls our body a garment of the spirit.
If you buy a new dress today does it mean you no longer are CHB?



1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Some interesting discoveries you have raised here whitewings. The idea of reincarnation does not appeal to the christian mindset, but it could be true nevertheless.
In the early centuries many did believe it. Surely they could have been wrong. Things have be changed by force. There were all kind of views on trinity, divinity of Jesus, afterlife. What we call Christianity today is not reached by agreement trough debate but 'military' force of the church.

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The hope is that whatever one did in the old incarnated life, that is now in the past and the new life is now.
I know you are (partly) ED, but try to think with a UR mind. If people are cast in LoF for correction/teaching; what exactly happens there? A big sunday school with Jesus as a teacher? Or could it be earth? "LoF is now" as Willie often wrote.


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Human race has evolved, we now have more knowledge. So what has changed?. Has God changed?
For me that's not proof. Knowledge is passed on. Each generation adds something to  the knowledge of a previous generation.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Tony, earlier you asked for "one verse".  My response was, I don't see any verses really supporting it, not necessarily arguing against it.

I've been mulling this verse over and thought I'd ask what you thought about it.  Earlier tonight TT said "if reincarnation's true, maybe people would accept Jesus as their savior in this life"...     My response was, "since the scriptures say it is appointed unto man ONCE to die, probably not". 

I've been tossing that around in my mind, that scrip, and it's one more reason I don't believe [in the primary interpretation] of reincarnation (multiple go-rounds in this life/age).  What do you think of that scripture in all your various thoughts about this subject?
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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I've been mulling this verse over and thought I'd ask what you thought about it.  Earlier tonight TT said "if reincarnation's true, maybe people would accept Jesus as their savior in this life"...     My response was, "since the scriptures say it is appointed unto man ONCE to die, probably not". 
SECOND death. :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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I thought about that, but then I thought "that's spiritual".  Seems to be 2 very different things.   
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Generally speaking I think we should be careful with words like first, second. once, etc
First can also be a "class".
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 12:03:22 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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I thought about that, but then I thought "that's spiritual".  Seems to be 2 very different things.
That not correct either. LoF is not kill people spiritually. LoF is the opposite. It's about waking up that dead spirit. We already have 6 billion spirtually dead on this planet. No need to make 'm even more dead.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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What's not correct?  That the second death is spiritual, and the first and second deaths are very different from each other?   I agree, the second death brings life - spiritual life, the death of death.  That seems different than physically dying.  Maybe I'm missing something, it's late.  :dontknow:

As far as "appointed once to die", whether that's 1 time or a "class" as you say, IMO it still means one go-round in this life, then the next step is the next age - not multiple go-rounds in this life/age.  But it's not up to me what folks believe about it, that's what I believe.    :bigGrin:
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 01:13:32 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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anyway, I've said how I see it.  it does get a little confusing this time of night (5 AM, haven't been to bed yet!  you're right, i was probably a little confused.)   i'll try to hush and let some others weigh in on it if they want.    :drama:
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 01:19:29 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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What is the 2nd death?
a] The 2nd death of any type?
b] Or a 2nd death of a certain type? -> both spiritual or both physical

It can't be option a] because most people dy the second death on earth. They are spiritual dead and then they die of old age. After that they are judged into LoF. Another death.


1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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As far as "appointed once to die", whether that's 1 time or a "class" as you say, IMO it still means one go-round in this life, then the next step is the next age - not multiple go-rounds in this life/age.
I think (possibly) OT and NT times need to be seen seperately.
Just thinking out loud. The whole deal is being perfected and thaught.
What if that perfection went on in OT times and Jesus broke the circle and the reincarnation cycle ended?
But there is a mathimatical problem with that thought. On this very moment more people are alive than all people combined from creation to Jesus.



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But it's not up to me what folks believe about it, that's what I believe.    :bigGrin:
That's the easy way out. The easy way seldom is productive. :2c:
It just doesn't feel good to me to ignore the verses I quoted just because 'you' believe otherwise.
The Bereans were strong believers but still they kept testing verything on daily basis. And testing is not just repeating words over and over again..... :mblush:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Quote from: ww
What if that perfection went on in OT times and Jesus broke the circle and the reincarnation cycle ended?

Jesus does mess up the classical concept of reincarnation because he forgives sin.

Therefore, the cycle of karma is broken.

But even in the OT there was provision for forgiveness of sin for the Hebrews.

Also one sows and another reaps so that they can have joy together--another blow to karma.

Another problem with reincarnation for Christians--you are subject to forces that are dependent on your own behavior--if you are bad you come back as an animal, if you are good you come back as an enlightened guru.  Who needs Christ?  It's another 'I can do it myself' religion.  Furthermore, it is socially deterministic.  All those poor people living on the streets of India were put there because of their own behavior in another life, caste, whatever--so there is no reason to help them--nor are they able or allowed to better themselves in society.  They are stuck until the next life.

God is either very detached and remote in these religions [budhism] or very demonic. 

I wouldn't trade Christ for any of that.


36And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

 37And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.

--John 4


Offline CHB

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Reincarnation is not a doctrine offered or taught in the teaching of Jesus Christ.
The very basis of Christianity (and many other religions) is reincarnation.
Doesn't the Bible speak of resurrection into perfected bodies? That's reincarnation. Pre-existance. That's 3 incarnations already.
Yes, but aren't we all going to be ourselves, not something or someone else?
From a Biblical point of view who exactly is CHB? The person I can see, hear and touch? Or the spirit/life that is inside the body that's currently called CHB? The Bible calls our body a garment of the spirit.
If you buy a new dress today does it mean you no longer are CHB?


Hi ww,

This is kind of what I was saying. In the next life I will still be me, not someone or something else as reincarnation seems to be.

CHB

Offline WhiteWings

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It's another 'I can do it myself' religion.
Not just another. It is exactly what the OT religion is. Just follow these 640 laws and you will get spot in heaven.
And nobody made it....because the only way leads through Jesus.

Besides of that it has nothing to do with the topic.
Reincarnation doesn't nullify grace or the sarcrifice of Jesus. On the contrary it amplifies Fathers grace. We can't get "it" right in 1 life. Not even in x lives. More reincarnations are just more proof we come short.

If we preexisted why are we on earth? If we where in heaven we knew God first hand. We didn't believe in God we knew God as a fact. So why are we here? And then why not 2 times?
I don't know. But I do know reincarnation(s) doesn't take away even the smallest fraction of Gods grace/glory/control/etc
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Reincarnation is not a doctrine offered or taught in the teaching of Jesus Christ.
The very basis of Christianity (and many other religions) is reincarnation.
Doesn't the Bible speak of resurrection into perfected bodies? That's reincarnation. Pre-existance. That's 3 incarnations already.
Yes, but aren't we all going to be ourselves, not something or someone else?
From a Biblical point of view who exactly is CHB? The person I can see, hear and touch? Or the spirit/life that is inside the body that's currently called CHB? The Bible calls our body a garment of the spirit.
If you buy a new dress today does it mean you no longer are CHB?


Hi ww,

This is kind of what I was saying. In the next life I will still be me, not someone or something else as reincarnation seems to be.
Then you misunderstood me. I think  :dontknow:
Who are you from a Biblical pov CHB?
a] A person of flesh and blood?
b] A spirit with a CHB coat?

If your answer is b].... I believe you are a woman? Say your spirit if put in a huge man.
Then what are you?
c] A new creation?
d] Same spirit with another coat?

Jesus was resurrected. People didn't recognize Him. He didn't look exactly as before.
e] It wasn't Jesus at all.
f] It was the spirit of Jesus with a new coat

Say by some freak accident you and your husband switch bodies.
Your mind in his body and his mind in your body.
Who are you?
g] The CHB coat you are no longer wearing?
h] Any coat your spirit wears? (the coat you call husband)


My answers are b/d/f/h

 :icon_jokercolor:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

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Quote from: ww
What if that perfection went on in OT times and Jesus broke the circle and the reincarnation cycle ended?

Jesus does mess up the classical concept of reincarnation because he forgives sin.

Therefore, the cycle of karma is broken.

But even in the OT there was provision for forgiveness of sin for the Hebrews.

Also one sows and another reaps so that they can have joy together--another blow to karma.

TT
Sow unrightowusness, reap unrighteousness, sow good things, reap good things sounds familiar to karma in a sense

Another problem with reincarnation for Christians--you are subject to forces that are dependent on your own behavior--if you are bad you come back as an animal, if you are good you come back as an enlightened guru.  Who needs Christ?  It's another 'I can do it myself' religion.  Furthermore, it is socially deterministic.  All those poor people living on the streets of India were put there because of their own behavior in another life, caste, whatever--so there is no reason to help them--nor are they able or allowed to better themselves in society.  They are stuck until the next life.

God is either very detached and remote in these religions [budhism] or very demonic. 

I wouldn't trade Christ for any of that.


36And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

 37And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.

--John 4


The mistake you make here or the assumption is that the you view reincarnation with certain ideas which come from other religions. I however look at reincarnation in terms of the actual meaning of the word, which is to come back and incarnate in another body, it does not nessecarily mean that people get multiple lives, (for one there is only a limited amount of vessels to incrnate in), perhaps only 2, or perhaps only certain people like Elijah reincarnate in order to be Gods faithfull servant in the world, so that he has a vessel to operate in and speak to the people. Reincarnation from a biblical standpoint is a new idea or rather an idea not explored much or it is something that is simply lost in history, such as the works of Origen. This means that building other ideas around it is an evolving process, e.g if reincarnation is true does it mean that when one accepts Jesus as saviour, then their souls no longer dies, but is guaranteed everlasting life, but those who sin die and therefore, must incarnate into another vessel?

The idea of reincarnation forces one too look upon many passages, which would be interpreted differently. So far I have found some supporting passages, while other passages seeem to be against it, it is quite similar to the soul sleep vs immortal soul/ and/or immortal spirit battle, where there seems to be contradictory passages.