Author Topic: Reincarnation a devil's lie ?Is it acceptable from a Christian point of view?  (Read 9290 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Notice also that the disciples said "who do men say that I am" said Christ

Some say you are elias, others jeremiah the prophet. Why would they say this unless reincarnation was a part of their beliefs?
A large part of Jesus mission was debunking beliefs. The learning point usually is not what the people say/ask but the answer they get from Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

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Yes but he didn't debunk in these examples we have discussed, as far as I have seen so far.
 :2c:

Offline Beloved Servant

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Yes Card, I see it now, that like all witchcraft-rooted spirits, the spirit of reincarnation is PARTICULARLY nasty.

At least it thinks it is.

 :thumbsup:

Offline thinktank

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Thank fully I have never seen such a thing. I didn't realize though that you believed in demonic activity.

From what I have read it seems to be that some reported past lives are familiar spirits, causing deception e.g claiming they are the cleopatra, but other accounts of past lives seem genuine and their past lives are pretty boring or average from a certain view.

Offline Cardinal

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 :cloud9: @ TT......No, you missed the point I was making with the scripture in Hebrews. Levi was alive in the flesh AFTER Abraham, yet Hebrews tells us Levi paid tithes to Melchisedek when Abraham paid tithes to Melchisedek, and that it was because Levi was in Abraham's loins. Selah.....

As for the spirit of Elijah versus saying the spirit of Christ. You have realize they had no understanding yet that there even BE a spirit of Christ, nor did they know what that was exactly (hint: it was not Jesus's spirit, like you and I have a spirit) so that escaped them as well. It STILL escapes most people, because only the Father can reveal this unto you, as Jesus told Peter after the Father revealed it to him.

Even shortly after his death, the disciples came upon some that believed and they asked them if they had received the HG since they believed. Their reply was, that they didn't even know there was such a thing to receive. So the disciples prayed for these believers to receive the HG. My  :2c: Blessings....
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 03:02:20 AM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Beloved Servant

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God did not give Israel a custom-made land of milk and honey but an already inhabited land, which needed to be overcome.

Offline Cardinal

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 :cloud9: Absolutely.....which is why it's a necessity to believe in demonic activity and evil spirits, IMO. Kind of hard to get deliverance from something if you don't believe that something exists.  :laughing7:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

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@TT
http://www.marvinvining.com/files/PR_JesusTheWickedPriest.pdf
I stumbled on this quote
Quote
Vining's detailed study also reveals long-lost Christian doctrines of reincarnation. He shows
Gabriel to be the high priest Simeon and the Teacher of Righteousness and discloses Gabriel's
role in transmitting the seed of the holy bloodline to the Virgin Mary.
To be honest I don't understand that quote because the Essene who wrote the DSS were no Christians :dontknow:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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I think the strongest case is John the baptist. Jesus said "If you are willing to accept it, this is Elijah that was to come"

This might be an exception for Elijah, e.g only Elijah reincarnates, because hes a powerful man. But again it could be the rule and not the exception, just that Jesus decided to tell people that this was Elijah, most people don't know who they were in previous lives, but Jesus knows who we were and so tells them that John is Elijah, but John the baptist is unaware, so he says I'm not Elijah.
http://khup.com/download/34_keyword-christian-doctrine-book/the-lost-christian-doctrine-of-reincarnation.pdf
Contrary to popular belief, reincarnation doesn't conflict with the orthodox resurrection of the dead. Hasidic Jews today generally believe that reincarnation occurs until the resurrection takes place at the End of Days, and according to my research the early Christians held the same belief.

Just read the short article. Maybe there is something in it that interests you.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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 :cloud9: My  :2c:.......I know it's a spirit, and this is one reason why. He told me while laying hands on someone praying once, to come against the spirit of reincarnation. I never, until that moment, even knew there WAS such a spirit and I also didn't know she had studied it/believed it.

Found out REAL quick when I commanded it to loose her, in His name.  :mshock:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

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So reincarnation is not an "event" but a name of  a spirit/demon?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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 :cloud9: Doctrines that do not originate from His Spirit, have a corresponding spirit of their own. Satan is the FATHER of lies = "progeny".
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline thinktank

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@TT
http://www.marvinvining.com/files/PR_JesusTheWickedPriest.pdf
I stumbled on this quote
Quote
Vining's detailed study also reveals long-lost Christian doctrines of reincarnation. He shows
Gabriel to be the high priest Simeon and the Teacher of Righteousness and discloses Gabriel's
role in transmitting the seed of the holy bloodline to the Virgin Mary.
To be honest I don't understand that quote because the Essene who wrote the DSS were no Christians :dontknow:

Have not read that pdf, but from your quote it sounds like doctrines of demons to me. Anything that promotes the idea of angels such as Gabriel incarnating in human being, is suspicious, but perhaps I am being to hasty. Melzideck for example was a high priest who had no mother or father, some say he was Jesus, but maybe he was an angel, because Jesus has a heavenly father, whereas angels are creations without father or mother.
 :2c:

Offline WhiteWings

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TT,

It's just something I accidently found when I was searching for my "Nazareth did not exist in the time of Jesus".
It seems that old writings show that certain Jews did believe in reincarnation before, during and after Jesus (even today).
Note that I underlined 'certain'.
Plus I want to add that acient writing don't make things right. Jesus was rebuking false doctrines half the time.
About the angels: I don't know it's in that document but some, there is a 'some' for everything :winkgrin:, believe angels live among us.

Anyway I found the links and just posted them here. That's all.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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:cloud9: From what I've read, it has been proposed that the Jews that were in the Babylonian captivity brought the doctrine back with them from Babylon. All pagan religions have a witchcraft element to them, but the Egyptians, Chaldeans, and Babylonians seemed especially interested in trying to "perfect" it.  :laughing7:
Seems the reincarnation idea lives strongly among (certain) Jews.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1409093/jewish/Why-When-Does-Reincarnation-Occur.htm

Summary:
Some sins can't be cleansed in the afterlife so the person reincarnates and gets a chance to improve.
If there is no improvement after 3 times it reincarnates in a clean animal.
Then unclean.
Finally something like a rock.

The first part I can understand. But how can a animal  do things better than the previous human if they aren't even aware of good and evil  :dontknow:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

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I heard one believer of the Torah, say that Ishmael I think!, came back as a donkey! You know the donkey that spoke in the bible. I think he said that the other major donkey that Jesus rode upon was king David, maybe that's why the crowd were bowing to Jesus, perhaps they were bowing to the donkey, king David and not the rider.

But to be fair the guy did have some crazy theories, I think he said that if one is to unclean they become a demon and can no longer incarnate, because there would be too much bad karma and the person would be destroyed too easilly.

Offline WhiteWings

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That view doesn't align with the article TT.
King David was a good guy. So he won't reincarnate at all. Only the very bad people reincarnate as another chance.
At least that's how I understand that article  :dontknow:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

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I know, it was just another viewpoint from someone else. Besides I fund the guy boring to listen too so I was not paying much attention to what he said, so I'm not even sure if he was talking about king David, maybe he said another guy who was a bad guy. But king David did have some sins that would result in bad karma, not enough for a donkey, probably not.


Offline WhiteWings

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I found some info; some of it extra-biblical. Some of it are verses that stringed together a reincarnation line of Seth -> Noach -> Abraham -> Moses.

It's often said reincarnation is paganism coming from the Greeks. It's true Greeks did/do believe in reincarnation. But it was Pythagoras who introduced the idea in Greek society after his travels to Persia where he learned the doctrine from the Jews being exiled there.
 

YLTJohn 9
2 and his disciples asked him, saying, `Rabbi, who did sin, this one or his parents, that he should be born blind?'
3 Jesus answered, `Neither did this one sin nor his parents, but that the works of God may be manifested in him;

The above shows the Jews believed in sins passing on through generations. Jesus rebuked his disciples. Not because reincarnation but because of the question was not accurate. The verse below clearly shows sin does not pass on from father to son.

YLTEzek 18
20 The soul that doth sin--it doth die. A son doth not bear of the iniquity of the father, And a father doth not bear of the iniquity of the son, The righteousness of the righteous is on him, And the wickedness of the wicked is on him.


YLTExod 20
5 Thou dost not bow thyself to them, nor serve them: for I, Jehovah thy God, am a zealous God, charging iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third generation , and on the fourth, of those hating Me,

This verse states (the punishment of) sin passed thought generations. It seem to contradict Ezek 18:20 but it doesn't.
1st generation - the sinner
2nd generation - the son
3rd generation - the grand son
4rd generation - the grand grand son

Exodus  20:5 does not mention the 2nd generation. The reason from the reincarnation pov is simple; the spirit of the father can't be both in the father and the son. The person that reincarnates must be dead so the verse basically says that father reincarnates in a generation that was born/conceived after his death.

So nobody ever inherits the sin of others. Only your own sin can be inherited.

Still reading?  :mshock:
YLTMark 12
26 `And concerning the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the Book of Moses (at The Bush), how God spake to him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob;
27 he is not the God of dead men, but a God of living men; ye then go greatly astray.'

He's the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Those people did not all live at the same time. We would say most were dead when God spoke those words. But in the next verse God clearly states He's not the God of the dead. So all those people must somehow be still be alive somewhere or in some form. They were not in heaven because Jesus clearly said He is the first one that ascended back to Father.

YLTJohn 3
13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down--the Son of Man who is in the heaven.
YLTEph 4
9 and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth?
-> First Adam is the last Adam....???
-> Son of man -> The son of Adam?  (that would mean many reincarnations
Moses
YLTExod 2
3 and she hath not been able any more to hide him, and she taketh for him an ark of rushes, and daubeth it with bitumen and with pitch, and putteth the lad in it, and putteth it in the weeds by the edge of the River;

YLTExod 2
10 And the lad groweth, and she bringeth him in to the daughter of Pharaoh, and he is to her for a son, and she calleth his name Moses, and saith, `Because--from the water I have drawn him.'

The Egyptians call water "mou", and a saved person saved "eses".
--> Saved from the water. Just like Noach.

KJVJosh 24
3 And I took your father Abraham from the other side of the flood, and led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his seed, and gave him Isaac.

Note: Many translation use the word river instead of flood.
The other side of the flood means those in the ark. Abraham=Noach

YLTGen 6
9 These are births of Noah: Noah is a righteous man; perfect he hath been among his generations; with God hath Noah walked habitually.

Who's spirit did Noach have? Adam and Seth both survived all their offspring and died prior to Noach's birth.
YLTGen 3
15 and enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee--the head, and thou dost bruise him--the heel.'

-> Adam's offspring Seth

Just a few thoughts.... :icon_jokercolor:
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 09:10:23 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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very cool stuff, ww. :thumbsup:

pilgrim1

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Verses that prove reincarnation (according to some).

http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-bible-verses.htm
http://www.christianinformation.org/article.asp?artID=90
http://bible.org/article/mystery-reincarnation
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen03.html
http://www.prophetsforpeace.com/reincarnationbible-freewillvspredestination.htm

Needless to say it's not hard to find many articles that claim reincarnation is a lie of satan.
Hi Whitewings
Thanks for those links, there's some fascinating reading. Just as there are many scriptures alluding to UR which go unnoticed by those who have been brought up with the traditional perspective, is it possible that we have been blind to verses alluding to reincarnation and may still resist the plain and simple reading of the text?

Offline WhiteWings

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Hi Whitewings
Thanks for those links, there's some fascinating reading. Just as there are many scriptures alluding to UR which go unnoticed by those who have been brought up with the traditional perspective, is it possible that we have been blind to verses alluding to reincarnation and may still resist the plain and simple reading of the text?
A Bible can be read in many ways. There are views only white people will be saved. But also that only black people will be saved. Just one example of an opposite view 'found' in the same book.
Among the early church fathers there was a debate over many things. Church split of in the early days over various believes. The 5th Counsil in 553AD declared reincarnation heresy. That's a long time ago and basicly the whole idea fades away if never spoken about. In Christianity that is. In other religions it's the core of the belief system.
Historians and the Dead Sea Scrolls agree that at least one Jewish sect very strongly believed in reincarnation. The writers of the DSS were the Essene. Jesus and most of his apostles were Essene too. In the Bible we know the Essene under all sorts of names. Herodians, Pharisees the not so extreme wing of the Essene, and the Scribes (likely the sect started at Ezra the scribe)
They hunted Jesus down, so it's very clear not everything Jesus believed was believed by them. That may include reincarnation.
Quote
At their end, the Essenes faced a day of reckoning truly as terrible as the Crucifixion and the martyrdoms with similar fortitude and resolution: "The war with the Romans tried their souls through and through by every variety of test, Racked and twisted, burned and broken, and made to pass through every instrument of torture in order to induce them to blaspheme their lawgiver or to eat some forbidden thing, they refused to yield to either demand, nor ever once did they cringe to their persecutors or shed a tear. Smiling in their agonies and mildly deriding their tormentors, they cheerfully resigned their souls, confident that they would receive them back again" (Josephus Jewish Wars).
Reincarnation is not just a casual word mentioned in the DSS
They believed for example that short fat people with uneven teeth were wicked in their previous life. Those with glowing black eyes and good teeth were reincarnations of good people. The star sign someone was born under was also of importance.
YLTRev 10
2 and he had in his hand a little scroll opened, and he did place his right foot upon the sea, and the left upon the land,
That verse seems to hint to star sign Cancer/Crab and is a reference to reincarnation.
And of course the most ancient symbol of reincarnation....


Of course none of the above proves reincarnation is true. For that we need to look in the Bible. Some verses at least seem to point in that direction.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

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For someone who calls them self a believer and filled with the Holy Spirit to even consider reincarnation as part of God's plan shows just how small your faith and understanding of His Word is. I am not sorry if that offends the brethren on this site. For myself there has been much knowledge and insight that has been offered and received from most of you, for this I am thankfull to you and the Lord. It is evident that I am no longer invited into the discussions on this forum and that is ok. If I am in error of that statement, I will recant. I have read and have found the teachings of Gary to be very fruitfull as his writings show he has been led to study and teach out side of the denominal and religious fundamental teachings and opinioned therory.
I am not what you call your selves UR. I believe in Christ crucified, that it is His blood that is cleanising of all sin. I believe that Jesus is the Savior of the whole world and that it is good and acceptable that all men will be saved. I believe that the Words that Jesus spoke are Spirit and Life. I believe that life more abundantly is not living alive now, on this earth breathing breath that is but to die. Life more abundantly is ALIVE IN THE SPIRIT, which is just what Jesus offered then and now. I believe that religion, denominations, mans teachings and docrtines and ceremonies have tethered believers to these lower realms. I believe that The Lord moved in the past and brought men up higher and were given revelations to the teachers that brought believers even higher, but as we can see from this past from the OT till now, He brings us to that place where all seems that this is place of the vision (Hab.2:3) and then men stop and build on the new teachings and some of the old and the heavenly growth stops, the Spiritual acsending to come up higher(Rev.4:1) ceases and the believers settle for the joys of that level that fill us and we become lethargic and lukewarm thinking that we have made it somewhere, when the journey upward still awaits those who have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying...Rev 22:17  And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing--let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting--let him come; and he who is willing--let him take the water of life freely.
I have not recieved any more knowledge than anyone else, I have been given no more insight that any of the brethren other than being told that we need to lay aside the old things and know that He is doing a NEW thing....Isa 43:19  Lo, I am doing a new thing, now it springeth up, Do ye not know it? Yea, I put in a wilderness a way, In a desolate place--floods.
Praise the Wonderfull and Beautifull Name of JESUS.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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I believe in Christ crucified, that it is His blood that is cleanising of all sin. I believe that Jesus is the Savior of the whole world and that it is good and acceptable that all men will be saved. I believe that the Words that Jesus spoke are Spirit and Life. I believe that life more abundantly is not living alive now, on this earth breathing breath that is but to die. Life more abundantly is ALIVE IN THE SPIRIT, which is just what Jesus offered then and now.
I have not recieved any more knowledge than anyone else,

I believe the same thing, and I don't believe in reincarnation.  I've been wondering where you are.   Not sure why you think you shouldn't post, brother. 
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23