Re-incarnation

[sheila]

my  

   Jesus announced that He had overcome the world before He lay down His life in obediance to Father's will.

   He announced 'the prince of this world comes,and he has nothing in me."

  So legally He could not be required to die at all, under law.

  But He laid down his life in obediance to the will of His Father,

  after all things had been made subject to him

 [world/demons/death] yes, he had already overcome death

before He laid down his life. Because he resurrected the dead;

 both dead in spirit and in physical sense.

  Because He did not sin,and sin entered not his flesh..it had no

 power to put him to death. He literally willingly laid it down

 in obediance to His Father BECAUSE of this scripture

  1Cor15;27 For he has put everything under his feet, now when it says that he has put everything under him,it is clear that this does NOT include God himself. When he has done this..

  then the Son himself WILL BE MADE SUBJECT TO HIM

  [as in lay your life down] who put everything under him,

  SO THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL

  Because the little children were partakers of flesh and blood, he likewise came in such manner. Flesh and blood can NOt inherit. Not even Christ's, it must be laid down or changed.

  The flesh profits NOTHING.

  Now ,as far as re-incarnation goes...it is obvious that those with such memories have returned unto the earth[flesh of another man] and not unto God.For dust they are and to the dust they shall return

  cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals,

  you will crawl on your belly and eat dust all the days of your life

 and I will put enmity between you and the woman,AND

BETWEEN YOUR OFFSPRING AND HERS

  HE WILL CRUSH YOUR HEAD

 AND YOU WILL STRIKE HIS HEEL

 

[WhiteWings]

To be honest and truthful, ...I am still not sure what you were trying to convey to me in this post...

I'll give it another try.
You wrote that people still physically die. I agree.
A bit later you wrote:

Don't know what bearing this might have on anything, but when CHRIST said this, He cannot have meant "NEVER" in the sense of NOT AT ALL... for HE DIED... and He "believed" in a far GREATER sense than can any of us...

My understanding is that you in this quote say something to "strengthen" what you said in the previous quote.
Even Jesus, the most sinless person ever, died. (so why would we not die too)
I completely agree with that (people die. Jesus died. Jesus was )

What I was trying to say is that the promise of "never die" started when Jesus completed His whole task.
Part of that task was: Dying. Resurrection. (and returning to Father). So Jesus established the New Convenant by dying.
To summarize: Saying "Perfect Jesus died, so why wouldn't we die?" Is overlooking the fact that Jesus died under the Old Convenant and we are now under the New Convenant.

If you never instended to say what I understood you said well then just ignore my post. I'm just pointing out a special situation that may or may not have impact on this discussion.
 

[sheila]

Nancy;

  I can certainly understand someone wondering about these things, I have too. After all, nothing is impossible with God.

  I know people personally that have had such memories 'instilled' in them. Many things are unclear to us,
at different times..as the light grows brighter and brighter
hopefully everything will be cleared up.

  For there is nothing 'hidden' that will not be revealed, and nothing concealed that will not be known,or brought out into the open.

  keep seeking,keep knocking

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother WW! 

To be honest and truthful, ...I am still not sure what you were trying to convey to me in this post...

I'll give it another try.
You wrote that people still physically die. I agree.
A bit later you wrote:

Don't know what bearing this might have on anything, but when CHRIST said this, He cannot have meant "NEVER" in the sense of NOT AT ALL... for HE DIED... and He "believed" in a far GREATER sense than can any of us...

My understanding is that you in this quote say something to "strengthen" what you said in the previous quote.
Even Jesus, the most sinless person ever, died. (so why would we not die too)
I completely agree with that (people die. Jesus died. Jesus was )

What I was trying to say is that the promise of "never die" started when Jesus completed His whole task.

Part of that task was: Dying. Resurrection. (and returning to Father). So Jesus established the New Convenant by dying.

I agree with this... The "it is finished" meant that there was NOTHING that could inhibit the balance of the WORK, for He had maintained SINLESSNESS His entire life which was FINISHED... and therefore WORTHY of acceptance by YHVH as a REDEEMING work.

That said... this already IS, even before He did it... so the ETERNAL view of it, is that TIME had witnessed its completion whereas ETERNALLY, it already IS an established FACT before it was even presented in TIME to witness...

To summarize: Saying "Perfect Jesus died, so why wouldn't we die?" Is overlooking the fact that Jesus died under the Old Convenant and we are now under the New Convenant.

That is your observation bro, and you are welcome to it... You are observing it according to TIME and its manifestations, which are IRRELEVANT... What IS relevant is the ETERNAL and UNCHANGING FACT that it (the sin of the human race, and the redeeming of it by CHRIST) has ALWAYS BEEN...

The "Old Covenant" of LAW shall NEVER pass away, for it is WRITTEN in the WORD which is ETERNAL...

JESUS said that Heaven and earth would pass away, but MY WORDS shall NEVER PASS AWAY...  Part of those WORDS are the Old Covenant, for they establish LAW which shall NEVER be compromised in the ETERNAL, only for the display of the KNOWLEDGE of GOD, in the TEMPORAL... to demonstrate which of the TWO -- IS -- the LIVING PORTION of the ETERNAL -- and which IS NOT.

The whole jist of this is that WE, in this experience... are the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL as is ETERNALLY in the HEART and MIND of GOD...

If you never instended to say what I understood you said well then just ignore my post. I'm just pointing out a special situation that may or may not have impact on this discussion.
 

I have already addressed this bro... If we are SPIRITUALLY inclined, we shall see and gravitate to the ETERNAL, and not to the TEMPORAL...

TIME is a TEMPORAL setting and ALL within it that occurs is TEMPORAL, to include the SIN of man, and our REDEMPTION from it.  ALL this has ALWAYS BEEN... For YHVH does NOT CHANGE...

What is ETERNAL is that we -- the CHILDREN of GOD which ARE the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... that is finding REVELATION to the Heavens and Earth, in THIS TEMPORAL setting... The KNOWLEDGE of GOD, is a LIVING KNOWLEDGE...

We are considered BOOKS -- Rev 20:12 -- and BOOKS contain -- KNOWLEDGE --

We are each (as BOOKS) "OPENED" before GOD and ALL His Creation... as the DEFINING LIVING examples of what IS and what IS NOT to be -- IN the Creation and Heavenly, realms...

The KNOWLEDGE of YHVH -- revealed -- which is of GOOD and EVIL...

If we wish to KNOW the END... we must GO back to the BEGINNING, for JESUS CHRIST is BOTH the Alpha (beginning) ...AND... the Omega (ending) -- SIMULTANEOUSLY which is ETERNALLY -- without EITHER. -- 

bro...

...willieH

[Cardinal]

  Willie, this post is so good it makes me want to.... :omg:   Blessings.....

[WhiteWings]

To summarize: Saying "Perfect Jesus died, so why wouldn't we die?" Is overlooking the fact that Jesus died under the Old Convenant and we are now under the New Convenant.

That is your observation bro, and you are welcome to it... You are observing it according to TIME and its manifestations, which are IRRELEVANT... What IS relevant is the ETERNAL and UNCHANGING FACT that it (the sin of the human race, and the redeeming of it by CHRIST) has ALWAYS BEEN...

I don't want to go into this "always been" debate because it leads nowhere. I agree that for God the "always been" state is a fact.
Same for His plan etc. But I think you also agree with me that from the 1st to the 2nd Adam all kind of changes took place.
For the humans those changes looked linear. (normal time). I'm just speaking about human awarenes. I don't know how things are for you but I have a linear life. I can be at several places at the same time. Neither at several times at the same time. So I always speak about thinks with that linear view. And with that I'm not in the very least denying God experiences such things in a vastly different way.
That said I agree the redeeming always has been here. "The Lamb was slain at the foundation of the world."
I try to understand you Willie. Now you try to understand me. I'm not denying your idea's about God "allways been".
I'm just saying the Bible mainly is a linear book. But indeed small gems like "The lamb was slain..." are none linear.
I really hope you understand me this time because we seem never to be able to exchange 2 messages without ending up in this trap.

[Nancy]

hi there will,

My take on it is nobody EVER dies, at least not the spirit/soul within us, only the BODY dies.

So when Jesus talks about 'He who believes in me will never die' He couldn't have been talking about the spirit dying only the body. 

So what i have gleaned from other writings is that when you are near death if you haven't 'braced Christs' teachings' you will re-incarnate. 

If you have braced salvation you will never die because your consciousness will remain alive. If you died in your sins, so to speak, you will remain unconscious and re-incarnate.

Will, i agree with you that judgment day is TODAY, not in some FUTURE time as there is no time, there is only NOW.
When i mentioned Paul stating work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, i don't believe Paul meant fear in the conventional sense.  I do not fear God at all. GOD IS LOVE, so i know that Paul couldn't have meant it that way. 

I believe you work out your salvation by being conscious of who you really are A SON OF GOD.

Godbless
Nancy

[Nancy]

hi,
Whitewings, you mentioned if there is no support in the bible, etc but my question is what bible? 
As you are probably aware the NT that we have today was collated i believe by Constantine in 325ad. 
He got rid of many books that didn't fit into his view of what the catholic church should teach such as the gospel of thomas, apocalpse of Paul, gospel of mary magdalene, etc.

Why should he have done that?  Maybe they alluded to re-incarnation and the church didn't want re-incarnation to be known because then they would lose their stranglehold on the peoples' fear of hell.
If there is no hell, there would be no fear of the church.  When the church calls something a heresy i usually think that there must be some truth to it otherwise why the fear!

Godbless
Nancy

[WhiteWings]

hi,
Whitewings, you mentioned if there is no support in the bible, etc but my question is what bible? 
As you are probably aware the NT that we have today was collated i believe by Constantine in 325ad. 
He got rid of many books that didn't fit into his view of what the catholic church should teach such as the gospel of thomas, apocalpse of Paul, gospel of mary magdalene, etc.

I have thought about the same thing Nancy.
How do we know the Bible contains the correct amount of books?
I can remember one method they used to detect fake books. "Modern......"
If a book that is supposed to be written 1500 BC uses words that got in use 500 years later or refers to events that didn't happen until 500 years later then that book was concidered fake. Or lettertype, type of ink and paper are not of that time.
Was it done correctly and/or honestly? I'm just not qualified to check.....

[rosered]

 
 Hi Nancy  and WW ,
 
 
  I watched a show last night called "unexplained mysteries " 
 and it spoke of many Jewish Rabbies/teachers  that believed in re-incarnation 
 there are still some to this day that still believe  as of old ..
 as it is part of their teachings /doctrine .
  I  also cannot    say  what happened to the Word of God over time , history , etc
  and what wany faiths call the Bible , writen  Word .
  I do   know that when I looked up        the  different "beliefs / faiths 

  on many types of religions  , I was surprised  and  kind of disturbed 
 how  they all vary  soooo much , it certainly can shake your  faith/ beliefs  .
 
  I know I am not strong enough to  "go there "  and discern    what  is of God  and   What  is   His will  and what will come of it all 
  Truth is something  simple , but  " religion" is not   such a simple thing
 to understand ...... 
 

[Cardinal]

  We are told what the glory is we are to attain to, and anything short of that, is a thief. CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory. That is our hope for perfection, being conformed into His image and likeness, by the grace and election of God, while still in the body.

Death of the body is not the death we should be concerned about. The death of the body is a SYMPTOM of what has really happened, ie. the separation of the soul/wife from the spirit/husband, which is what "causes" the death of the body, as the body is just doing or mirroring the spiritual condition.

This is why He told them that for the hardness of their hearts, Moses/the letter would give them a bill of divorcement. Hardness of heart there means, dull of hearing. So what He was saying way, because you are dull of hearing what the Spirit would say to you, the letter (ministry of condemnation) will allow you to divorce your wife, ie. spirit separate from soul = DIE.

Which, conversely, is why Elijah and Enoch did not die, but walked with God (walked without separation of soul from spirit) and were caught up/no more. There is now NO CONDEMNATION to those that walk in the Spirit. The ministry of condemnation ministers DEATH to the hearer, so if there is no more condemnation, why are we dying again? Because we are not walking in the Spirit, and are dull of hearing. Lord, please let us eat (of the experience) of the shewbread of Simeon, ie. he who hears.

The reason why reincarnation is a false teaching is because the "divorced wife", ie. soul separated from the spirit/husband, CANNOT JOIN HERSELF TO ANOTHER, but can only be joined to her "husband's brother", the KINSMAN REDEEMER, ie. CHRIST. Blessings.....

[willieH]

willieH: Hi sister N...

Thanks for your answer! 

hi there will,

My take on it is nobody EVER dies, at least not the spirit/soul within us, only the BODY dies.

Sorry sis, ...but clearly the WORD notes at LEAST 2 DEATHS... and ALL participate in them.  If no one "EVER DIES"... Then what is Paul speaking of in 1 Cor 15:55?  How could something that doesn't even exist, have a "sting"?  Or propose that "sting" to something (anything) that DOES EXIST?

So when Jesus talks about 'He who believes in me will never die' He couldn't have been talking about the spirit dying only the body.

To this extent, I do believe the SPIRIT never dies... for it is a PORTION of the LIVING GOD (the breath of life)... but as far as MAN and personal "CONSCIOUSNESS" goes... it definitely shall experience SLEEP concerning TIME... TIME is only beheld by CONSCIOUS observation.  When you SLEEP, TIME continues, but YOU are not WITNESS to it, or its GOINGS ON... 

Ecc 9:5 -- the DEAD -- KNOW NOT -- ANY THING...  This clearly notes:

(1) -- there are those who are DEAD and --
(2) -- that CONSCIOUS OBSERVATION (knowing) is UNAVAILABLE to them...

So what i have gleaned from other writings is that when you are near death if you haven't 'braced Christs' teachings' you will re-incarnate.

I do not side with this thinking sister Nancy, and here is why...

(1) -- "Other writings" are peripheral and irrelevant.  If this cannot be proven by the WORD, then it fails to be a teaching OF IT...

(2) -- This would place upon US the "embracing" of CHRIST, to which the Scripture speaks to the contrary...

John 14:6 -- Jesus saith unto him, I am the way the truth and the life, NO MAN cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME -- (not BY themselves and their "bracing" of HIM -- as you put it) 

John 6:44 -- No man CAN COME to Me EXCEPT the Father which hath sent Me, DRAW [drag in Gk] him... -- (Again - Man is HELPLESS of Himself to either COME or to KNOW CHRIST, except GOD do the work in both cases)

This is further varified in -- Psalm 127:1

If you have braced salvation you will never die because your consciousness will remain alive. If you died in your sins, so to speak, you will remain unconscious and re-incarnate.

Sorry sis... I don't buy it... if you "remain conscious" --

(1) what is the "point" of the RESURRECTION?  And,
(2) why is it said there are men ASLEEP in CHRIST?  And,
(3) how about in Hebrews 11:13 of the "Fathers of Faith" -- where the "PROMISES" are yet to be realized?

Re-incarnation is (IMO), a mythical and mystical construing of the something that is NOT spoken of in the WORD... which thereby NECESSITATES one to "glean" it from "OTHER WRITINGS" -- 

That the JEWS in every instance (of displaying this "belief") were shown to be IN ERROR -- to me, is evidence of its invalidity.

I am speaking of such verses as:  John 1:21 -- These were SUPPOSING that John the Baptist was ELIJAH reincarnated... and were told they were -- SUPPOSING WRONG -- by John.

You are welcome to remain where you are sister N... It is not on my agenda to change you in any way... however...

Concerning willieH -- Only IF --- you can show me a verse where REINCARNATION is noted CLEARLY within a WRITTEN INSTANCE in the WORD, I shall then have to reconsider my present observation...   

But until it is shown that a MAN "died" and later, REAPPEARED on the earth -- in the WORD of God... I shall remain where I am...



...willieH 

[Nancy]

hello,
Willie, i'm not saying that i believe in re-incarnation 100%.  I actually don't like the concept of having to come back time after time!!!! It's another viewpoint that i was interested in looking at.  But i do wonder why a great portion of humanity do believe. Their holy books obviously mention it.
Godbless
Nancy

[Livelystone]

The problem with reincarnation is it is a religion of works, ie. if YOU do "better", "next time"..........which negates the need for Christ's work on the cross.

The people that have "verifiable" past lives information, are still not recognizing that the familiar spirits are the ones that have that information they think they are "remembering". It is a counterfeit for the Holy Spirit bringing all things to our remembrance about life and godliness. My  Blessings...

Interesting post and I do agree with you concerning the general concept of reincarnation as well as what you said about the familiar spirits........... well said 

Still I think that there is something passed down through the "family seed" that passes through the males other than what is called to be DNA.

Regarding the Christ seed that is Christ in us that defines us as Christians I believe that is given individually from God and only after one comes to the Cross

 

Doug

[rosered]

The problem with reincarnation is it is a religion of works, ie. if YOU do "better", "next time"..........which negates the need for Christ's work on the cross.

The people that have "verifiable" past lives information, are still not recognizing that the familiar spirits are the ones that have that information they think they are "remembering". It is a counterfeit for the Holy Spirit bringing all things to our remembrance about life and godliness. My  Blessings...

Interesting post and I do agree with you concerning the general concept of reincarnation as well as what you said about the familiar spirits........... well said 

Still I think that there is something passed down through the "family seed" that passes through the males other than what is called to be DNA.

Regarding the Christ seed that is Christ in us that defines us as Christians I believe that is given individually from God and only after one comes to the Cross

 

Doug

  Seeing  the seed is  the incorruptible seed /of the  Word of God , born again of  the Image of God  though Jesus Christ ,,,,,,,,
 
   they   Father / Son dwell  within  those  expressing the Love of God though His son Jesus Christ
 

Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 


 1Jo 4:12  No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and his love is perfected in us. 


 1Jo 4:13   Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. 


 1Jo 4:14   And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. 


 1Jo 4:15   Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwells in him, and he in God. 

 1Jo 4:16   And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him. 


 1Jo 4:17  Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 


 1Jo 4:18   There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that fears is not made perfect in love. 


 1Jo 4:19   We love him, because he first loved us. 


 1Jo 4:20  If a man say, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar: for he that loves not his brother whom he has  seen, how can he love God whom he has  not seen? 


 1Jo 4:21   And this commandment have we from him, That he who loves God love his brother also.   

  not  re-incarnate
  but the incarnate of the Image of God and His Son dwelling among us 

 in⋅car⋅nate  /adj. ɪnˈkɑrnɪt, -neɪt; v. ɪnˈkɑrneɪt/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [adj. in-kahr-nit, -neyt; v. in-kahr-neyt]  Show IPA adjective, verb, -nat⋅ed, -nat⋅ing.
Use incarnate in a Sentence
See web results for incarnate
See images of incarnate
–adjective 1. embodied in flesh; given a bodily, esp. a human, form: a devil incarnate. 
2. personified or typified, as a quality or idea: chivalry incarnate. 
3. flesh-colored or crimson.

–verb (used with object) 4. to put into or represent in a concrete form, as an idea: The building incarnates the architect's latest theories. 
5. to be the embodiment or type of: Her latest book incarnates the literature of our day. 
6. to embody in flesh; invest with a bodily, esp. a human, form: a man who incarnated wisdom and compassion. 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
1350–1400; late ME < LL incarnātus ptp. of incarnāre to make into flesh, equiv. to in- in- 2 + carn- flesh (see carnal ) + -ātus -ate 1
 
 very different  but close enough to confuse 
 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi sister N... 

Thanks for your reply!    Please know that I did not mean to sound "accusing" -- as if you conclusively "believe" REINCARNATION to be a true proposal... 

hello,
Willie, i'm not saying that i believe in re-incarnation 100%.  I actually don't like the concept of having to come back time after time!!!! It's another viewpoint that i was interested in looking at.  But i do wonder why a great portion of humanity do believe. Their holy books obviously mention it.
Godbless
Nancy

It is these books which I call into question as "holy"... The word "holy" is a word describing PURITY... and as well (I believe), the state of COMPLETENESS -- for something PURE is COMPLETE, and without need of alteration...  When something is WITHOUT need of any ALTERATION -- then ANY addition or subtraction, only DISTORTS, and introduces CONFUSION...

Examples --

(1)  If one ADDS to the TRUTH, one is embellishing something that is not IN NEED of EMBELLISHMENT, and which is ALREADY WHOLE (the cup is filled to capacity already, and is not in need of more for it is already FULL) -- rather --

That which is HOLY is DEFILED by ones "addition" for it required no help to be COMPLETE, as it ALREADY abided in a "HOLY" state... One COMMON example of this today is man's foolish remarks, which at times claim to give a "110%" effort in a given endeavor.  It is NOT POSSIBLE to give more than ALL that you have to GIVE, which is "100%" of what you have to give...

(2)  If one SUBTRACTS from the TRUTH (holiness), the very same thing occurs -- One is presenting a version that is (by ones deletion of a portion) LESS than WHOLE, and thereby DEFILED from the status of PURITY...

Because a "book" which presents ideas of a "religious nature", makes a claim of something... does not equate that book to HOLINESS...

Horror novels speak of "Satan" in their content... but, just because this word "satan" is employed, does not mean that the word "satan" is therein employed TRUTHFULLY...

That religious CONFUSION exists, is simply the depiction emerging from Man which of himself, forms his own picture of GOD, rather than take GOD's WORD as that depiction...

It could be argued by those of RELIGION based upon writings OUTSIDE the BIBLE, that our belief which is based upon the BIBLE is not THAT WORD... however...  No other set of writings (that I know of), proposing a PERFECT SAVIOR that rescues us from our IMPERFECTION, is found in any other book which claims "HOLINESS" as its foundational attribute.

It is obvious that LESS than PERFECTION or PURITY is the state of men and their actions upon this earth.  Which means that if there in reality, IS a PERFECT existent GOD --in order for us to be RECONCILED from our IMPERFECTIONS... that WE being IMPERFECT cannot accomplish such a task... How can something IMPERFECT (incomplete), make ITSELF PERFECT? (complete)

Logic and REASON, dictates that a redeeming SAVIOR which could CHANGE imperfection to PERFECTION, needs to be emergent from PERFECTION, and is the only way IMPERFECT beings or things, can be CHANGED from the state they are obviously HELPLESS to CHANGE -- themselves...

This is how and why I question the label of "holiness" to books outside the BIBLE.

DEATH is a mystery... Evolution cannot explain the existence of it... as they try to explain that LIFE "evolved" by itself... when asked why DEATH accompanied it, they are without an answer (save for bumbling reply that it is just part of the process).  For the LIFE they claim to understand came from NON-LIFE, has no reasonable explanation why DE-EVOLUTION (which is a DECENDING) should occur in a process that is ASCENDING. 

DEATH is the ultimate DE-EVOLUTION of LIFE... and is a blatant descending, which is illogical within a process of assension... something like a FIRE which has unlimited fuel, PUTTING ITSELF OUT.

As my dear sister CARD has already noted... REINCARNATION is just a glorified and mystical WORKS OREINTED proposal.  That one must participate in "DO-OVERS" until he/she "gets it"...  Thereby expelling the need of a SAVIOR to rescue us from our IMPERFECTIONS... as WE in our IMPERFECT approach, "brace" CHRIST, instead of HIM "bracing" us... and WE thereby SAVE ourselves from our INHERENT IMPERFECTIONS, becoming PERFECT via IMPERFECT means.

As I said previously, ...even though the JEWS had such imaginations (reincarnation), does not mean that those imaginations emerged from God. 

On the contrary... the religion of JUDAISM is noted as (in part - and for the most part) BLINDED by God -- Rom 11:25 -- CHRIST also noting the TEACHERS of JUDAISM as BLIND -- Matt 23:17-19 -- as well as the fact that JEWS are amongst ALL men (imperfect and in need of Salvation) which also begin with HEARTS that are DESPARATELY WICKED -- Jer 17:9 --

Therefore if we try utilizing the thought that the JEWS "believed" (or seemed to believe) in reincarnation as the potential that it is an actual part of the living and "SAVING" process...  Said "process" is basically shown by the WORD to be just another human distortion, believed by BLIND "observers"...

As for me, I don't buy it... because all other options (other religions or evolution), end up with UNREASONABLE conclusions (perfection/completion) based upon an INCOMPLETE foundational proposals.

Like EVOLUTION, ...it has FAR too many HOLES in it, which negate it to be considered TRUTH...

...willieH