Author Topic: Re-incarnation  (Read 2615 times)

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Offline Nancy

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Re-incarnation
« on: November 06, 2009, 11:58:48 AM »
Hi there all,

I know that for christians re-incarnation is a touchy subject.  But i would like to give my take on it.  I respect if you find it anathema but it is interesting to say the least.

When i read Christ's teachings sometimes i suspect it may be true (for me remember)

When Christ talks of 'He who believes in me, he will never die' does sound to me that Christ is saying that if you DON'T believe you will have to go through the 'second death' and be reborn again.  If we are all going to remain alive when we 'die', to face the judgement seat, why would Christ say this? 
And what is the second death?  Is it being dead in heaven!? To me it doesn't make sense anymore.

Other spiritual writings refer to this life as a death and not real life, just a dream.  The real life is beyond.

Godbless
Nancy

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Re-incarnation
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2009, 12:25:54 PM »
Secular speaking there can be no resurrection or reincarnation without death.
In the Christian "reincarnation" you are still Nancy. Perhaps an improved version of you but still Nancy. But usually incarnation is coming back as something different. An animal for example. Or the stories from people that in a previous life were a person in 1850.
True or not I believe that's an important difference to note. Also reincarnation is again on earth and still away from God. The Christian "reincarnation" is always close to God.

Second death can't be (eternal) death in Heaven because that would mean God would be mainly the God of the dead because, let's face it, most people don't die as saints and ready for heaven.

When I look up verses with death the word meaning is just that dead. But "wide is the road that leads to destruction" is also about that death imo. Your body gets destroyed but not your soul/spirit. So imo the second death isn't really death because 'me' is my mind/personality/spirit but not or far less my body. Well something dies imo. That bad part of yourself. I see it a bit like the parable of the man that collects the wheat and burns the chaff.
I have this and the above far from clearly figured out but imo the wheat=good parts of Nancy. Chaff=the bad parts of Nancy that will be no more forever. So both the wheat and the chaff are Nancy. They are not 2 different groups.

 :2c:
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 12:29:42 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rosered

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Re: Re-incarnation
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2009, 03:43:46 PM »
 

 good points WW
  really clear
   you know how much I HATE this  subject ..
  I will also just add to WW  reply
  that when we are changed we become  new creatures in Christ "a holy thing"
  I honestly  believe we are being conformed into the very image of His Son our Lord Jesus Christ ..
 
 This is my thoughts on it ..  I find it to  be  a lie and not the Truth .
 
     But   may the Lord show us  His Truth and we grow stronger  in His Truth and grace .. :HeartThrob: 

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Re-incarnation
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2009, 08:09:26 PM »
 :cloud9: The problem with reincarnation is it is a religion of works, ie. if YOU do "better", "next time"..........which negates the need for Christ's work on the cross.

The people that have "verifiable" past lives information, are still not recognizing that the familiar spirits are the ones that have that information they think they are "remembering". It is a counterfeit for the Holy Spirit bringing all things to our remembrance about life and godliness. My  :2c: Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline rosered

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Re: Re-incarnation
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2009, 08:18:47 PM »
:cloud9: The problem with reincarnation is it is a religion of works, ie. if YOU do "better", "next time"..........which negates the need for Christ's work on the cross.

The people that have "verifiable" past lives information, are still not recognizing that the familiar spirits are the ones that have that information they think they are "remembering". It is a counterfeit for the Holy Spirit bringing all things to our remembrance about life and godliness. My  :2c: Blessings...

  Awesome Card!! , well said sis !!! :HeartThrob:

   beware   of those lying spirit's 

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Re-incarnation
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2009, 08:24:11 PM »
It is a counterfeit for the Holy Spirit bringing all things to our remembrance about life and godliness.
How can it be a counterfeit HS if there is no reincarnation? I mean counterfeit means immitating something. If the HS doesn't do a similar thing it can't be counterfeited.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rosered

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Re: Re-incarnation
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2009, 08:42:12 PM »
It is a counterfeit for the Holy Spirit bringing all things to our remembrance about life and godliness.
How can it be a counterfeit HS if there is no reincarnation? I mean counterfeit means immitating something. If the HS doesn't do a similar thing it can't be counterfeited.

  Hi WW ,
   the Holy Spirit   causes us to remember the things in Gods Word , teaching and correcting us
  a lying spirit  is  something you believe you remember from a "so called past life"' 

  its like a diamond  is the  real thing
  and a shiny stone that looks like a diamond
     but when put to the test 
 the Diamond will  cut  under pressure, but will hold all together   
 and the shiny  stone [likeness] will shatter
 
  there is a lot of holes in the re incarnation theory   
   Do you  think it  has any  value ?
 
  thanks    hope you dont mind   my reply :HeartThrob:
 
 
 
 

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Re-incarnation
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2009, 09:06:46 PM »
No I don't mind.
For me resurrection is a special type or reincarnation. Not exactly but I explained it in the first message.
I know what the HS does and understand your reply.
It's no big deal for me what you and Cardinal said but I try to clarify.
First of all I fully agree with your defenition Rose. But not with Cardinals.
Counterfeit means imitating. If the HS never talks about you being an animal or another person in another life then the none-HS is not counterfeit but just lying. A bit like making $100 bills and $143 bills.
Counterfeit would be if the spirit tells you things similar to what the HS does. I never met the HS so thsi is purely an example. The lying spirit claims to give you a message from God but the spirit just lies about it. That would be counterfeit. The lying spirit itself is not counterfeit. It's action might be.

But this is going much further than intended. It's semantics and I fully understood Cardinal (and you)

For you last do I believe in reincarnation. No and possible....  :winkgrin:
No as in in previous live I was an animal or Napoleon.
I know there are many views on what LoF is and when. I don't want to sidetrack Nancy's thread so a short answer.
Most agree LoF is about correction. About learning. But afaik nobody exactly know how Father will do that teaching.
A thought that passed my mind, no strong feeling, is that is might be possible that God puts us in a certain enviorment as a method of teaching. And then in a way you "reincarnate".

Peeps cool down. No lenghty replies needed because I don't present this as proof. Just as one of my 1000 thoughts what exactly that 'correction' the Bible talks about might be like....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rosered

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Re: Re-incarnation
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2009, 09:56:21 PM »
 
  Yeppers   I understood  your   reply   Bro T
  and   to  me it all comes down to this
  how we perceive  things ...
   when you spoke of the Lake of Fire as corretion  as some  perceive
 
   one way to see it / perceive  is  with fear and punnishment 
another way to see it is  expected  and part of that Love God  that said would correct us
   both have that same  WORD from God  but  the perception of seeing this in different ways  makes for the  confusion  and lack of clarity
 
  how we interpret   what Gods word really means  to us ..
 
 one is fear of the Lord  the other in Love of the Lord 
 both may be right  to a certain degree    or wrong  even
    Its how we think God is  :icon_flower:

  I  trust its love because    the Word says God is love
 
  and   I will go back to the HS it is love that motivates

  a lying spirit is not of love  but  to cause torment
 
 what  do you say ?
    :HeartThrob:
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 10:03:29 PM by rosered »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Re-incarnation
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2009, 10:14:46 PM »
I would say I wish you were not married.  :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

Quote
I will go back to the HS it is love that motivates

  a lying spirit is not of love  but  to cause torment

Agreed.
But I want add that I think (because I can only compare what I have not met) that the lying spirit also teaches love.
But fake love. Looks good but is bad. Just like rat poision. Tastes perfect for the rat. But not very healthy... Deadly in fact.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 10:46:04 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rosered

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Re: Re-incarnation
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2009, 10:32:33 PM »
I would say I wish you were not married.  :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

Quote
I will go back to the HS it is love that motivates

  a lying spirit is not of love  but  to cause torment

Agreed.
But I want add that I think (because I can only compare what I have not met) that the lying spirit also teaches love.
But fake love. Looks good but is bad. Just like rat poision. Tastes perfect for the rat. But not very healthy... Deadly in fact.
 
 
 
 Bro T   ,  That is a good point  and  taken !
   and  to go even further  with this ,  for the cat who eats the  poison rat
 
  it  can be deadly
  I saw  this once a cat on the farm who ate a  poison  rat and  was messed up for awhile  till it died ...  :mshock:
 
  :HeartThrob:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Re-incarnation
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2009, 10:56:28 PM »
Tell me about it. It's how my dog died. He ate a handful of pure rat poison.
He couldn't move the 'last half' of his body anymore (how to say that in English?)
To the vet. A fortune of vitaime shots got him up again. But never his old self. Kidneys destoyed.
Lifeforce completly drained  :thumbdown:
You know we never dared to touch his leach when we didn't go for a walk with him. He heard it no matter where he was. And sorta ran right trought walls of joy. And only cooled down after he got his walk. But after he ate the poison. zero interest.
He always hated the vet. Nervous.wanted out etc. But the time came we had to chose to keep him suffering or let him go. He didn't even care if he was at the vet. And in a way it seemed he really know he was very near to his end   :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rosered

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Re: Re-incarnation
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2009, 11:20:26 PM »
Tell me about it. It's how my dog died. He ate a handful of pure rat poison.
He couldn't move the 'last half' of his body anymore (how to say that in English?)
To the vet. A fortune of vitaime shots got him up again. But never his old self. Kidneys destoyed.
Lifeforce completly drained  :thumbdown:
You know we never dared to touch his leach when we didn't go for a walk with him. He heard it no matter where he was. And sorta ran right trought walls of joy. And only cooled down after he got his walk. But after he ate the poison. zero interest.
He always hated the vet. Nervous.wanted out etc. But the time came we had to chose to keep him suffering or let him go. He didn't even care if he was at the vet. And in a way it seemed he really know he was very near to his end   :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh:


  That is so sad , I  hate to hear it Bro T,
  sometimes  our furry friends  show us what loyalty   really means and  how it hurts us to see them suffer  unto death 
  my cat was  Q-tip   loved the old girl  , she was a good cat  in her day 

  and like you we had to put her down  by the vet,
   a mercy killing of sorts   she was never the same  either . :sigh:

  what can you do , I  will always remember her   " a fine cat  she was "

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Re-incarnation
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2009, 11:40:23 PM »
Sometimes he went insane. Ran back and forth in the living room. Full speed. At the end of the room full brakes and skidding like a car out of control. Half of time his timing was off and  bumped his butt sorta sideways against the wall. Sometimes his head rammed the wall. No problem at all. On for another carpet devastation run.
And then back to sleep. His other hobby. Against the central heating. His black fur got so hot you wondered if he wasn't burning up. He knew all footsteps of our friends and family. When they arrived you saw his ear move a little and kept sleeping. But when it were unknown foodsteps he jumped up in guard position :laughing7:

Bit more on topic. If I would reincarnate in that that dog, I would surely be closer to perfection than I'm now...
Reincarnation. Yes I know. I know....
Ok the dog only worshipped the food gods. Especially the cookie god. But very loyal. Kind hearted. And cheerful
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 11:45:39 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Taffy

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Re: Re-incarnation
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2009, 12:05:12 AM »
Thats a sad story WW   :sigh:    about ya poor dog..
 We have a couple also
I actually take Rat poison daily....its warphrine , an anticoagulant which thins the blood..[ long story..too many blood clots] it prevents the blood from thickening...and thins toan  almost water like consistancy ..lethal if you cut yourself badly....ya cant stop the bleedin..

of course while you take this stuff it destroys your insides....Dont you love modern Medicine....and i understand heaps about lethagy....

 :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Re-incarnation
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2009, 12:18:41 AM »
I know about blood clots and medicine for that. I also knew it's used for rats. Not that it's the same stuff.
So you oatmeal in the morning is actually your medicine :-)
Nice article that explains the working: http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_rat_poison.html

/EDIT 1: Now I think of it those vitamine shots make lots of sense. Likely to replace his lost vitamine K
/EDIT 2: How did we get from reincarnation to rat poison in 13 hours. Forgive me Nancy for I don't know what I'm doing....
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 12:22:45 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Taffy

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Re: Re-incarnation
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2009, 12:30:48 AM »
ty for the link

and yeah - they have even more lethal stuff on the market thesedays..poor animal die a Horrid death...

ill have to read some on that Oatmeal and its properties...Certain foods I avoid, Mainly those RICH in Iron...Tis what I have to much of..opposite to aneamia.[sp].
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Re-incarnation
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2009, 12:50:16 AM »
I mentioned oatmeal because that's how rat poison looks like. And likely smells and tasts like too.
99.9% healty and tasty stuff. 0.1% vitimine Death.

But there is more than that anti clot stuff in rat poison. Poisoned rats don't rot. They just die up to skin.
My uncle worked in a factory where they make sugar out of dunno the name. Big white 'carrots' :laughing7:
Before the havest tons of rat poison was dumped under the floor. After the harvest time the floor boards were lifted and truckloads dried up rat got shoveled out. But never a smell of rotting rats.
Maybe it blasphemy but I think God really met his match in mankind when it comes to death and destruction. That industry is being perfected since the dawn of ages...

Oatmeal is very rich of iron. Maybe use a magnet to get it out before you eat it. Just a suggestion. :pointlaugh:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Nancy

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What has all that got to do with re-incarnation!!!!!
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2009, 08:53:39 PM »
You naughty lot!!

Rosered, you mentioned that past life's are lies.  To me that is the usual 'christian' cop out! If it doesn't sound good, just say it's lies, or the devil.  How can you debate with that!   Don't ET'ers say that about NDE'S that they are from the devil, even when the person has become a better person and more spiritual. It's a cop out.
Anyway i don't think you are meant to think about your past life's anyway.  To think about your life now.  I bit like christians worrying when the end will come and forget to live in the now.
I am simply asking if the 2nd death maybe re-incarnation and to consider the pros and cons of it.

Card, doesn't Paul say 'work out your OWN SALVATION with fear and trembling'. I don't see anything here with the doctrine of just let Jesus do all the work.

Godbless
Nancy



Offline WhiteWings

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Re: What has all that got to do with re-incarnation!!!!!
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2009, 09:13:45 PM »
Rosered, you mentioned that past life's are lies.  To me that is the usual 'christian' cop out! If it doesn't sound good, just say it's lies, or the devil.  How can you debate with that!
I'm to new to say it is or is not a cop out. If there is no support for NDE's in the Bible then "it's a lie" is the only correct answer from a Christian point of view.
If there is support, which I personally never heard of, it's indeed a cop out.

Quote
Don't ET'ers say that about NDE'S that they are from the devil, even when the person has become a better person and more spiritual. It's a cop out.
I think that's a bit to generalizing. Many NDE's seem to be believed by at least some ETs.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline willieH

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Re: Re-incarnation
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2009, 09:52:16 PM »
willieH: Hi Nancy... :hithere:

The following answer are my present observations, which many shall disagree with, but when they are considered instead of immediately dispensed, ...make sense (at least they do to me)... I hope they shall at the least, give you some food for thought, as you search for answers to your questions...  :friendstu:

When i read Christ's teachings sometimes i suspect it may be true (for me remember)

When Christ talks of 'He who believes in me, he will never die' does sound to me that Christ is saying that if you DON'T believe you will have to go through the 'second death' and be reborn again.

Don't know what bearing this might have on anything, but when CHRIST said this, He cannot have meant "NEVER" in the sense of NOT AT ALL... for HE DIED... and He "believed" in a far GREATER sense than can any of us... Also... we DO die PHYSICAL death... so the word "NEVER" (which means NOT AT ANY TIME), cannot be the conveyance of this passage.

As I see this... He is NOT saying that NO DEATH will occur for you... rather, SPIRITUAL LIFE has been "re-born" by your "belief in Him", and you shall NOT EVER "die" in the Spirit again, FOREVER...  You, as a believer have "completed" the circle of TRUE LIFE which is in the SPIRIT... (you, in that belief/faith, have come HOME, if you will)

Another point, is that if there is really no ACTUAL "DEATH" in believers -- then what point is found in a "RESURRECTION"?  :Chinscratch:

There is an old saying that the BRAVE die ONCE, but the COWARD dies a THOUSAND TIMES...  I think that CHRIST's Words more fall into "METAPHORIC" category, rather than an actual "never" APPLICATION.

IOW -- one that "BELIEVES" enters the state of (physical) DEATH clothed with LIFE... as He notes in Rev 3:18

If we are all going to remain alive when we 'die', to face the judgement seat, why would Christ say this?
 

Again... it is where, when and how you are percieving "the Judgment seat"... the common belief in Christianity is that this takes place in the Resurrection... AFTER physical death...

It is my belief that we are before it NOW... and either we are NAKED in our SIN (as were Adam & Eve in the Garden) ...or CLOTHED in CHRIST --

Paul noted in his writings that even though sin continued in his experience, ...it was no longer HE that sinned but that SIN was a separate resident within his members -- Rom 7:17

He was NOT conveying that a believer, based on his/her belief could go on in SIN... rather, that SIN in the members would take its occasions in his experience, irregardless of his desire to serve GOD... On the SURFACE, this sounds like "double-talk", but it is completely TRUTH...  Even the Aposte JOHN joined PAUL in this thinking -- 1 John 1:8

Anyone who has ever dealt with a person which is prone to MISBEHAVIORS, can have a desire to NOT participate in those behaviors, yet FALL into them anyway... I counseled in a Homeless shelter for a span of time (almost a year), and there were MANY that desired to (1) quit smoking or (2) quit using cocaine or (3) quit abusing his/her spouse, etc... but FELL into those MISBEHAVIORS anyway regardless of INTERNAL (and heartfelt, tearful) desire to ABSTAIN from them...  Their SIN was a TORMENT within, that most (observing them) WITHOUT easily find condemnation instead of understanding and HELPING them to VICTORY, and OUT of these (various) AWFUL IMPRISONMENTS...  :dontknow:

CHRIST plain & simply said -- John 12:48 -- NOW is the JUDGMENT of the WORLD -- and then continued to say -- NOW shall the PRINCE of THIS WORLD be CAST OUT

Most view this PRINCE which is "casted out" as some mythical being called "satan" is being spoken of here... and as I see it, that is PARTIALLY correct...

However, that "being" is not some "fallen angel", rather -- is the CARNAL portion of the MEN (and women) we ARE while IN mind of THE FLESH (instead of the mind of the SPIRIT), not the "eviction" of a "talking snake/red guy with a pitchfork" --  :laughing7:

And what is the second death?  Is it being dead in heaven!? To me it doesn't make sense anymore.

(as I see it) -- THIS LIFE contains TWO DEATHS --- the "2nd death", which is PHYSICAL, and the "1st death" which is SPIRITUAL, and which occurs via our disobedience to the COMMAND of GOD, ...thereby bringing SIN into our experience, as well as the eventuality of the "2nd death" which is the GRAVE of the PHYSICAL.

Other spiritual writings refer to this life as a death and not real life, just a dream.  The real life is beyond.

Godbless
Nancy

This is somewhat a TRUE observation... JESUS noted those who were ALIVE, as DEAD -- Luke 9:60 -- let the DEAD bury their DEAD -- obviously noting these as SPIRITUALLY DEAD, yet able to perform LIVING TASKS (as in "burial")

So they were actually DEAD (1st death) and ALIVE (able to "bury", as they themselves headed for their 2nd death)...

Hope this helps you...  :cloud9:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline rosered

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Re: Re-incarnation
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2009, 10:03:11 PM »
Quote
Hope this helps you... 

 
 Well  sure helped me Bro W ! 
 
 Wow , I love your line by line clarity!  :cloud9:

   abundant  blessings  :HeartThrob:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Re-incarnation
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2009, 10:09:45 PM »
Don't know what bearing this might have on anything, but when CHRIST said this, He cannot have meant "NEVER" in the sense of NOT AT ALL... for HE DIED... and He "believed" in a far GREATER sense than can any of us...
Willie I agree Jesus died and was superior to all of us. But I'm not so sure that can be used as proof.
What I'm now gonna say is more a question to you/anyone than rebuking you. Let's say everything Jesus said was meant for the NT/New Convenant. Imo it's very well possible that convenant started at His resurrection. Or perhaps after His return to Father. So His death was still under the Old Convenant. I know Jesus said "It is finished". But I think you won't deny that His resurrection wasn't just a minor event in history.


 
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Also... we DO die PHYSICAL death... so the word "NEVER" (which means NOT AT ANY TIME), cannot be the conveyance of this passage.
Sparrow are you reading this" Sparrrrooowww!!! :laughing7:
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 10:36:12 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline willieH

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Re: What has all that got to do with re-incarnation!!!!!
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2009, 10:41:12 PM »
willieH: Hi Nancy -- :hithere:

I am simply asking if the 2nd death maybe re-incarnation and to consider the pros and cons of it.

Card, doesn't Paul say 'work out your OWN SALVATION with fear and trembling'. I don't see anything here with the doctrine of just let Jesus do all the work.

How does one actually "work out" SALAVATION?  Is not the goal to SUBMIT to CHRIST (the WORD) and His FATHER? 

And when this (submission) is done -- is the one SUBMITTED, ...actually "doing" the "working out"?  :laughing7:

What PEACE is found in FEAR and TREMBLING?  1 John 4:18 -- Discharges this UNPEACEFUL thinking.

Almost EVERY letter Paul wrote began with the wish of PEACE toward other believers...

(not accusing you of doing this, Nancy - but) How HYPOCRITICAL to EXTRACT a verse from his writings, and thereby teach FEAR and PEACE simultaneously... as if they truly CO-EXIST and are BRETHREN...  :mshock:

It is CONFUSION of what LOVE truly IS -- as well as its TRUE MOTIVES for its OBJECTS --- that introduces FEAR as an FOUNDATIONAL element in the "BUILDING" of PEACE...  :dontknow:

What Paul is conveying is that we are to be IN RESPECT of YHVH as we live the days of our LIVES, not DREAD coming face to face with Him!  We are to be looking FORWARD to meeting our GOD "face to face"!

Do you FEAR those you LOVE?  Or those who LOVE YOU?

The Scriptures note we are to LOVE GOD... because HE 1st LOVED us... what kind of MIXED UP MESSAGE conveys that in our LOVE of GOD, we are to be AFRAID of Him?  I see this as DISTORTED information.

I find no PEACE in such a mindset.  And it is the teachings of TORMENT and/or ANNHILATION which have removed LOVE from christian teaching and experience, the TRUTH of what LOVE is all about!

Here are the FACTS ---> PEACE does NOT contain FEAR, and FEAR does not contain PEACE they are CONTRARY! 

Which is WHY -- FEAR is NOT a PART of LOVE... These are statements of REASON, to which our Father calls us -- Isaiah 1:18

I LOVE my grandchildren... and though I do desire their respect... I do NOT ever, NOT EVER --- wish them to be AFRAID of me... (fearing and trembling as I walk into the room)   :pitiful:

I can only speak for myself... but, everyday I ask my Father, that He might put an END to this EVIL TIME, that I might come face to face with Him... and that ALL my brothers and sisters that live or have ever lived -- will be ENVELOPED within His MERCY and LOVE...

Regardless of my MYRIAD IMPERFECTIONS... I don't go to bed shaking & quaking, like an earthquake!  AFRAID that I might die in my sleep!  And then have to QUAKINGLY STAND before His (enraged) JUDGMENT SEAT as does "christianity" teach the World!

I LOVINGLY say goodnight to Him (cuz He is my best friend), looking forward to His new morning here... or better yet... to EMBRACING HIM in my next moment!  I can't WAIT to meet LOVE face to face!

:Peace: Sister N...

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline willieH

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Re: Re-incarnation
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2009, 11:11:13 PM »
willieH: Hi WW... :hithere:

Don't know what bearing this might have on anything, but when CHRIST said this, He cannot have meant "NEVER" in the sense of NOT AT ALL... for HE DIED... and He "believed" in a far GREATER sense than can any of us...
Willie I agree Jesus died and was superior to all of us. .But I'm not so sure that can be used as proof

"Proof" for what?  I am not totally sure I understand what you are saying here brother  WW... ????

JESUS -- DIED... with PERFECT FAITH... the "NEVER" DIE thing did not apply to Him -- for He had to DIE to redeem us from DEATH...  and as we are made in the IMAGE of GOD, it does not apply to us either...

The word NEVER implies, NOT at ANY TIME...  :dontknow: 

Well, My point is that true understanding of JESUS' usage of NEVER cannot be -- as is commonly thought by Christians, for 

    (1) -- we (truly) DIE spiritually when we SIN, then 
    (2) -- we are to (metaphorically) DIE to ourselves in submission, and finally
    (3) -- we (truly) DIE physically
 

Which elminates the word "NEVER" as applied to our involvment concerning "dying" --  :dontknow:

What I'm now gonna say is more a question to you/anyone than rebuking you. Let's say everything Jesus said was meant for the NT/New Convenant. Imo it's very well possible that convenant started at His resurrection. Or perhaps after His return to Father. So His death was still under the Old Convenant. I know Jesus said "It is finished". But I think you won't deny that His resurrection wasn't just a minor event in history.

You quoted my words about CHRIST's usage of the word, "NEVER", but did not comment on this...  :dontknow:

Where did I suggest that "His resurrection" was a minor event in history, bro?

What I SAID, was that He BELIEVED (enacted FAITH) in a FAR GREATER sense then do we... He did GOD's WILL continuously... we DO NOT... Not only that, but JESUS completely embodied the WORD of YHVH, which is something we only do IN PART -- at best.

CHRIST's death put to DEATH the "Old covenant" which was LAW oriented and centered IN IT -- displaying that our WORKS will always FAIL... and in doing so, replaced it with the JUSTIFICATION of GRACE... which IS the "New Covenant" -- displaying that it is the WORK of GOD on our behalf that in the end, SUCCEEDS.

The "OLD" (Law accusing us -- Rom 7:9) brings  :thumbdown: DEATH ---

The "NEW" brings  :thumbsup: LIFE (Rom 9:24-25)...

 :mblush:  To be honest and truthful, ...I am still not sure what you were trying to convey to me in this post...  :dunno: 

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9: