Author Topic: Saved from sin, vs. saved from sinning  (Read 1091 times)

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Offline gregoryfl

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Saved from sin, vs. saved from sinning
« on: June 06, 2014, 11:02:40 PM »
From reading a recent post by Seth, where he shared the scripture concerning Yeshua saving us from our sins, as Yohhanan said, a question came to me, and I wanted to hear from you all as to what your thoughts are concerning it:

The text speaks of saving us from sins, but nowhere does it say we are saved from sinning.

Do you see any ramifications in that? Any difference?

Shalom

Ronen

Offline Seth

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Re: Saved from sin, vs. saved from sinning
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2014, 11:25:19 PM »
Hi Ronen,
It says in the Greek, saved from "hamartia" - sin. When I read in Philippians 2:12 "work out your own salvation" I think the translation is revealing. The word "work out" is from katergazomai meaning to "accomplish" or "labor" or "work outwardly."

This outward work, suggests an inner salvation first. When I read in Romans 7 that sin within us produces all kinds of evil desires, I think it shows to me why, when we are saved from "sin" we may then work outwardly our salvation.

God causes a break between the sin within our flesh, and our minds, so that we no longer need to labor in slavery to sinning. First the inward, and the outward follows.

Offline gregoryfl

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Re: Saved from sin, vs. saved from sinning
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2014, 12:04:34 AM »
Shalom Seth,

Thank you for your thoughts and scripture. The reason I ask is because my thought is that, to be saved from sinning, as an action, we are saved from that act.

But to be saved from sin would seem to also, by implication, include what comes from sin...namely, death.

To use a common example, if I rescued someone from a burning house, it would rightly be said that I saved them from fire, but included and understood in that is not simply being saved from the physical thing called fire, but moreso from what it would have done to them...namely, being burned to death. Saved from the thing would seem to include being saved from the result. I relate this to what you shared, as being saved from sin, where the power of sin is broken, hence I no longer have to walk in it, and in so doing, I can walk in life, and not death, which is the result of walking in sin, as that is the wages it pays.

Ronen

Offline FreeAtLast

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Re: Saved from sin, vs. saved from sinning
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2014, 01:24:12 AM »
Indeed we are saved from Sin.

That Sin of Adam that made all sinners and caused Death to be upon all mankind.

We are saved from that Sin and in essence from the Death that was brought in by the Sin.

What Seth said also is true.

In my perspective mankind no longer is under the Sin that brought Death through Adam--but under Resurrection unto life through Yahshua :HeartThrob:

All mankind is resurrected through one man   Yahshua !!!

we are under the law of life through Yahshua and not under the law of Sin and Death through  Adam!!!and ALL mankind shall be made Righteous :HeartThrob:


Offline Seth

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Re: Saved from sin, vs. saved from sinning
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2014, 07:36:17 AM »
Thank you for your thoughts and scripture. The reason I ask is because my thought is that, to be saved from sinning, as an action, we are saved from that act.

It seems that we agree in essence, but wondering if you could clarify your meaning. Not sure I totally understand what you mean.

I see sin as both an act, and also an internal condition of the flesh which causes the act.

Offline marie glen

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Re: Saved from sin, vs. saved from sinning
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2014, 06:01:40 PM »
From reading a recent post by Seth, where he shared the scripture concerning Yeshua saving us from our sins, as Yohhanan said, a question came to me, and I wanted to hear from you all as to what your thoughts are concerning it:

The text speaks of saving us from sins, but nowhere does it say we are saved from sinning.

Do you see any ramifications in that? Any difference?

Shalom

Ronen

hi! to me sin ='s imperfection.. And God, to me, logically, simply must be Life itself, and also Perfection, hence to wander from God in any tiny way in thought, word or deed, is to be imperfect, the opposite of life.

Hence the result of imperfection is nonlife. And Jesus saves us from our imperfection, but yes, it is a "Work in progress".. otherwise while still in the fallen nature (commonly called the flesh) pride, boasting and who knows what(!) would rear its ugly head..

I believe if we are a believer and persist in a sinful life style (which I guess would be deliberate, even if ignorant) then we would suffer some judgment.. "beaten with stripes" being metaphor for that.. But I believe most 'punishment' is self (and HS) inflicted during the long day of judgment when there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth..

However!!

Hebrews says to be sure we are obeying "the gospel" - you see if we have faith and free conscience, even with our (minor?) flaws, be they over eating, cussing coming out.. or whatnot.. then we will draw close to God - the ONLY source of goodness. We will draw near, praise Him and He will fill us with His Spirit, the only true transformation (an ongoing process requiring continuing to "draw near" / "to get the help we" [sorely] "need").

Elsewhere it says "if you mix law with grace, you have fallen from grace". Peace, and God bless!! :smile:
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 06:50:29 PM by marie glen »
- Is it written? no repentance after death? if resurrected still in ones sins (2nd Resurrection) will be weeping and wailing? Holy Days - Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles prophecy the three peaks of His long 2nd advent? Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process?
``````````````````````````````````````````````````
- "...aLL things new" Rev21:5 "A new heavens and a new earth" Rev 21:1 - Is 11:7 Micah 4:4 Is 30:25
http://www.bubblews.com/news/9080033 -revelation told in rhyme - 45 days

Offline Seth

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Re: Saved from sin, vs. saved from sinning
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2014, 06:05:32 PM »
My personal opinion is that I believe we will find that our own sin will be punishment enough, and not that God needs to inflict some extra pain and suffering. I think we do that to ourselves and God sends us along our way to show us what happens when we play with "fire."

Offline marie glen

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Re: Saved from sin, vs. saved from sinning
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2014, 08:22:41 PM »
My personal opinion is that I believe we will find that our own sin will be punishment enough, and not that God needs to inflict some extra pain and suffering. I think we do that to ourselves and God sends us along our way to show us what happens when we play with "fire."

   :thumbsup:  :thumbsup: ("weeping and wailing")
- Is it written? no repentance after death? if resurrected still in ones sins (2nd Resurrection) will be weeping and wailing? Holy Days - Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles prophecy the three peaks of His long 2nd advent? Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process?
``````````````````````````````````````````````````
- "...aLL things new" Rev21:5 "A new heavens and a new earth" Rev 21:1 - Is 11:7 Micah 4:4 Is 30:25
http://www.bubblews.com/news/9080033 -revelation told in rhyme - 45 days

Offline marie glen

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Re: Saved from sin, vs. saved from sinning
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2014, 04:54:47 PM »
I like how Colossians 1;13,14 says it, which was in my readings this morning.

I have a side by side - english/'greek' new testament which i like better than any other I've used or concordance which puts it this way:

"Who drew out to self us out of the authority of the darkness and transferred into the kingdom of the Son of the love of Him, in Whom we are having the release by ransom, the letting go off of the sins"

The New King James, verse 13 is written like this:

      "13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,"

And in the Contemporary English Version, verse 14 reads:

       "14 who forgives our sins and sets us free."

But to me, the side by side version still says it best - "the release by ransom, the letting go off of the sins"

...and transplanted into the Kingdom of His Son of love..

"love works no ill".. doesn't cheat, fraud, is faithful

and this of course, "The secret kept for ages, is Christ in you.." (Col 1:26)

Christ in us! I am out from under the authority of darkness (kingdom of darkness), set free from sin/darkness, and am now a transplant enjoying freedom in the Kingdom of grace, praise, worship, prayers and thanksgiving, through Christ, and Christ in me.. [but if i "mix law w/ grace" i will "fall from grace". law implies goodness coming forth from the self, grace (humbly) recognizes the truth of One source of all Goodness, so we take shelter and abide under His wing and shadow.. We draw near.. (in boldness! Hebrews). Grace ='s the POWER of God (Christ in us) Hebrews says to obey the gospel.

Mixing "law with grace" (same topic, imo:) is to greatly dilute the POWER of God/transformation-which is inner, and produces "fruit", not outer focused/forced change..
- Is it written? no repentance after death? if resurrected still in ones sins (2nd Resurrection) will be weeping and wailing? Holy Days - Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles prophecy the three peaks of His long 2nd advent? Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process?
``````````````````````````````````````````````````
- "...aLL things new" Rev21:5 "A new heavens and a new earth" Rev 21:1 - Is 11:7 Micah 4:4 Is 30:25
http://www.bubblews.com/news/9080033 -revelation told in rhyme - 45 days

Offline gregoryfl

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Re: Saved from sin, vs. saved from sinning
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2014, 05:08:32 PM »
Thank you for your thoughts and scripture. The reason I ask is because my thought is that, to be saved from sinning, as an action, we are saved from that act.

It seems that we agree in essence, but wondering if you could clarify your meaning. Not sure I totally understand what you mean.

I see sin as both an act, and also an internal condition of the flesh which causes the act.
Yes, I too understand sin to be, as a verb, an act, but also as a noun, likened to a disease within the members of our body, using the law in an attempt to bring about death. To clarify the purpose for my question, I have heard it said by others that we are saved from sin, which they define as its action, sinning; and they come away believing that if you are saved from the act of sinning, you are either no longer capable of the act of sinning, or, more prevalent, were given a clean slate of that act, which you now had to keep clean. In the early centuries of the church this was taught as a one time thing, based upon a misunderstanding of Hebrews 6, which is why baptism became a long, drawn out process, with many even waiting until their deathbed to be baptized, to avoid accidently sinning and thus using up their 'one chance'. I disagree with this understanding.

I believe that when it speaks of him dying for our sins, and dying for the sin of the world, to save us from our sins, that he dealt with the disease itself, the cause, the cause found in everyone, and now we, being dead to sin, (we no longer owe it servitude, as a slave) are now leaning to live in our authentic, original identity, as one's bearing the likeness of our source, God himself; learning to live out of our completeness. When we do not do this, when we are forgetful of this cleansing of ours, and start to live out of lack, this is where we end up roaming around once again in the neighborhood of sin, and snared by it, suffering the consequences of a place that is now foreign to us.

Ronen

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Saved from sin, vs. saved from sinning
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2014, 05:11:14 PM »
he text speaks of saving us from sins, but nowhere does it say we are saved from sinning.

Do you see any ramifications in that? Any difference?

Shalom

Ronen
The wages of sin is everlasting death of someone. Jesus took care of that part.
To stop sinning is something entirely different. A quick glance in a random history book shows sinning never stopped.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Seth

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Re: Saved from sin, vs. saved from sinning
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2014, 05:26:44 PM »
Hi Ronen, yes "Christ in us" that's what it's about. He forgives sin AND sets us free. Two actions. For if we were reconciled by his death, how much more so, having been reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

It's true, that sinning never stopped in history, but then again "many are caller, but few chosen."

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Saved from sin, vs. saved from sinning
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2014, 05:41:05 PM »
He forgives sin AND sets us free. Two actions.
That's just one action. We are set free because He paid for us on the cross.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Saved from sin, vs. saved from sinning
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2014, 05:43:38 PM »
It's true, that sinning never stopped in history, but then again "many are caller, but few chosen."
Even the chosen ones never stopped sinning.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Seth

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Re: Saved from sin, vs. saved from sinning
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2014, 05:44:28 PM »
He forgives sin AND sets us free. Two actions.
That's just one action. We are set free because He paid for us on the cross.

For if we were reconciled by his death (Action #1), how much more so having been reconciled, shall we be saved by his life (Action #2)

We are set free because he gives us "his life" the Spirit, by which to walk. That is how we are saved from sin and sinning. Reconciliation happened 2,000 years ago, but sanctification unto salvation cannot occur but by "his life."


« Last Edit: June 09, 2014, 05:54:29 PM by Seth »

Offline Seth

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Re: Saved from sin, vs. saved from sinning
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2014, 05:46:17 PM »
It's true, that sinning never stopped in history, but then again "many are caller, but few chosen."
Even the chosen ones never stopped sinning.

They weren't made perfect, however:

1 Cor 6
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


Not perfect, but definitely changed.