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Offline anti_nietzsche

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questioning our motivations
« on: August 24, 2011, 08:06:46 AM »
Has anyone of you done a lot of introspection? I mean, when I examine myself I find a lot of really messed up stuff. For example, I'm not sure if I want to believe in things like UR because they are the truth, or because they would truly save all of us. When I look into myself it seems more like I want to use UR to feel better about myself, to be able to say, if God doesn't save me now He will do so later. Not that this is so bad in itself, but it does seem as if I want to have UR to be able to say to God, I can't believe in You right now, but later I hope I can believe in you.

I'm currently pursuing sanctification. It seems to be where God wants me to be. And sanctification is something which many, many christians engage in and where they put their hope of getting to an acceptable life with God. The thing that is different between UR and traditional christianity, to me, just seems to be that salvation can happen beyond death, not just in this life. But it cannot say that the afterlife punishments will be slight and easy to handle. It can just say they won't be endless.

What Jesus tells me is to stay in my church, a normal, conservative, lutheran one. He tells me, they are legitimate christians, they are loved, they live with God already. That while UR is a worthwhile topic, I shouldn't sell my soul to it, so to speak, so that I would not try to get out of what I have already learned so far in my church.

This is where I see a true danger of UR, that the people who believe in it leave their churches, that they try to stay on their own without fellowship. Or that they marr their souls with pride, thinking that their belief in UR allows them to look down on other christians.

When I compare myself to other christians who do not hope for or believe in UR, I cannot say that I am so much better than them. I am not always kind, I am sometimes pretty nasty inside of me, although I try to exercise self control. I am not always humble, I have had pretty proud thoughts, and not just before I became a believer.

In my time as a seeker I have visited quite a few different churches and talked with christians of various backgrounds. And I always had the impression that all of them had God. I didn't always found them flawless people, I almost never found them flawless, but it was undeniable that God was there and loved them and me just the same.

The problem of ET is not so much the doctrine itself, but how we handle it. Do we do it like Fred Phelps, or like Martin Luther? Like Calvin (whom I really dislike), or like Dietrich Bonhoeffer or Mother Therese? Like Jonathan Edwards (whom I also dislike much), or like Martin Luther King?

One thing that also seems relevant to me is that while I can personally say I can believe in Jesus from experience, because He had come to me a few times, I cannot say I believe in UR from experience. None of us know the thoughts of God in their infinite entirety. Just like we weren't present at the creation of the world, we aren't present yet at Judgment Day and on the New Earth. So it is somewhat problematic to say we already know how it will turn out. The bible in fact calls the afterlife things our Blessed Hope, not our Blessed BELIEF.

Perhaps we would be well adviced to remember what David wrote, that He wouldn't bother Himself too much with the things that are too wonderful, with the things he knew he was not prepared to understand fully. If we don't take to heart this advice, perhaps we end up being deaf to God's will, to run ahead of Him without that being God's will. Our salvation hinges on Jesus, not on a theological system. We need this Jesus. right here and there. If there is any salvation of any scope, it can only come through Jesus. And I must say that I definetly feel tempted to use the wide scope of a salvation theology like UR to be more lax. To ignore God and to stop fearing Him like I should. It takes away from my humility. I rather want a theology which assures me of my wellbeing than the Savior who gave up His wellbeing for me.

That is the problem I am seeing with the application of UR. If done immaturely it can lead to bad things, including that we don't really live in the church anymore and instead simply go our own way.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: questioning our motivations
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2011, 09:30:15 AM »
My friend it you have any other motivation besides Jesus Christ and God's love, then you need to seek and yield to Him, that what you need. I promise you He is there with you.
"What Jesus tells me is to stay in my church, a normal, conservative, lutheran one. He tells me, they are legitimate christians, they are loved, they live with God already. That while UR is a worthwhile topic, I shouldn't sell my soul to it, so to speak, so that I would not try to get out of what I have already learned so far in my church."
Paul tells us,  2Co 6:17  Wherefore come ye forth out of their midst, and be separated,—saith the Lord,—and, one impure, do not touch; and, I, will give you welcome,
"This is where I see a true danger of UR, that the people who believe in it leave their churches, that they try to stay on their own without fellowship."
2Co 6:14  Be not getting diversely yoked with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness? Or what fellowship hath light with darkness?
Friend when you come out you are not lacking fellowship. The greatest fellowship you can have is with Jesus Christ.
"thinking that their belief in UR allows them to look down on other Christians"
I believe that sir is an untrue statement. I am UR, but if anything UR loves other Christians for they know that a denomination such as Lutheran teaches that a loving God will send His children to a place of heinous imaginations of men's doctrines. I was raised a Lutheran till I was 17, I had to memorize and believe a lot of things I couldn't believe. This much the Lord has revealed to me, if some minister is giving a sermon and what he is teaching is false, get out. Can your minister find a verse in the Bible that will refute the truth of… 1Ti 2:3 for this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God,
1Ti 2:4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.
Should he be able to then I would like to see it.
"When I compare myself to other Christians"
Now that is a mistake, you should compare your self to Jesus if you are going to compare at all. Php 3:12  Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect: but I press on, if so be that I may lay hold on that for which also I was laid hold on by Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13  Brethren, I count not myself yet to have laid hold: but one thing I do, forgetting the things which are behind, and stretching forward to the things which are before,
Php 3:14  I press on toward the goal unto the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
"The problem of ET is not so much the doctrine itself, but how we handle it. Do we do it like Fred Phelps, or like Martin Luther? Like Calvin (whom I really dislike), or like Dietrich Bonhoeffer or Mother Therese? Like Jonathan Edwards (whom I also dislike much), or like Martin Luther King?"
You handle it like Jesus He set the example and the Apostles continued to lead that way.
"we aren't present yet at Judgment Day"
No but we are being judged now, 1Pe 4:17  because it is the time of the beginning of the judgment from the house of God, and if first from us, what the end of those disobedient to the good news of God?
My friend, until you step out on FAITH, you will never know; when you do you will slip, fall, get up and start all over again. We are all growing maturing just like babies do, we are  2Co 5:17  so that if any one is in Christ-- he is a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things.
We have to learn as we grow Heb 12:4  Not yet unto blood did ye resist--with the sin striving;
Heb 12:5  and ye have forgotten the exhortation that doth speak fully with you as with sons, `My son, be not despising chastening of the Lord, nor be faint, being reproved by Him,
Heb 12:6  for whom the Lord doth love He doth chasten, and He scourgeth every son whom He receiveth;'
Heb 12:7  if chastening ye endure, as to sons God beareth Himself to you, for who is a son whom a father doth not chasten?
Heb 12:8  and if ye are apart from chastening, of which all have become partakers, then bastards are ye, and not sons.
Heb 12:9  Then, indeed, fathers of our flesh we have had, chastising us , and we were reverencing them ; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of the spirits, and live?
The thoughts you spoke of early in your post I tell they come to all of us, maybe in different ways, for we are yet carnal. 1Co 3:3  for ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you jealousy and strife, are ye not carnal, and do ye not walk after the manner of men?
Psa 103:14  For He hath known our frame, Remembering that we are dust.
  Don't know if this is of any help, it sure has helped me! :grin: :HeartThrob:

Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: questioning our motivations
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2011, 10:16:31 AM »
Well, I want you to know that now I'm happy :bigGrin:

Up until I met the Lord for the first time I was not an unbeliever, I mean I believed in God, but I sure knew I wanted no part of the Lutheran religion. In my town there was a large Lutheran building and a large Catholic building. In my town you were either a Lutheran, which is what my family was or you were a Catholic. We Lutherans were buddies with Catholics and there was not much difference. As far as we all were concerned it was all routine and memorization. And most of us got out of dodge as soon as we graduated. I joined the Marines in '63 and I moved farther away from God, yet I still believed in God.

When I got out and got married the first time my wife was a Baptist, so we went to a Baptist building, but it got boring, so we quit. Then we went to a Free Will Baptist and things perked up, you know a little loser. I played guitar and sang, but some way along we were asked to go to a Pentecost building. That when we got heavy into the rapture teaching and them Pentecostals were a whole lot looser! I fell away, then divorced and I hit the road. And that road is one I aint real proud of. I bummed, picked in bars, got in fights, drinking and doping, a lot of woman, ect. I bummed and thumbed the west coast(came from Illinois) from the Mexican boarder to the Canadian boarder. All this time God was on my mind, I packed a Bible around and read it. One day the Lord showed up real unexpected, I was not looking for Him at all, tho He had been on my mind. There is a story there but later, well I spoke out loud to Him and said alright then get me to the church I had visited, a small Assembly of God and so thats where I headed.
I  started walking and thumbing it was about 10 miles and it started to rain. When I got to the first small town I stopped at a corner station, I was soaked and my pack and my guitar were getting wet. So I stood out in the rain and looked up the sky and I said out loud, " If you want me to get out of where I'm at, then get me a ride to that church." Or I was going back.
Well, just then a telephone repair van pulled with the words, "No Riders" on the door. The guy inside said get on in, I did, and he asked me where I was headed. I was ashamed to say where so I just told him the town name and he said Im going there. We went along and turned here and there and then turned into a gravel parking lot and said, well this is where I got some work to do here. Now no one was more shocked than me. This van with a No Rider sign had taken me to the very church that the Lord showed me. Now there maybe some who think I do not believe in God's messengers(angels) well I do.
The preacher let me sleep in church tower and I aint with them. I got a job and well....Thats only part of my story, but since then I have been up and down, down and up, in an assembly and out of an assembly.I cant figure out God, but this one thing I know, whether I am walking with Him or I fall away from Him, He has never left me, and I know that He is working on me. That Potter is just not done with this clay. Since that time I have been in His word, married again and divorced again, but I stay in His word because He called me. I am running my race and praying that He will in His time chose me as well.
Well, I guess Im still helping me, but maybe you can receive something out of all them words. Peace and Love :dsunny:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: questioning our motivations
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2011, 10:53:54 AM »

Well, I guess Im still helping me, but maybe you can receive something out of all them words. Peace and Love :dsunny:

No, it was a real blessing, and I felt the joy of the Lord as I read it.  Thanks.   :HeartThrob:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline micah7:9

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Re: questioning our motivations
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2011, 10:59:18 AM »
Thank you again. Lord is so Good. :bigGrin:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: questioning our motivations
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2011, 01:36:45 PM »
I loved that story, Micah!  It is so much like him--and his wonderful sense of humor.

Thanks! :icon_flower:

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: questioning our motivations
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2011, 04:36:37 PM »
 :icon_king: :icon_king: :icon_king: :icon_king: :icon_king: :icon_king: :icon_king:

Offline CHB

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Re: questioning our motivations
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2011, 05:37:59 PM »
Micah, thanks for that story. You are right, some people feel they need the Church but all we really need is Jesus Christ.

Believing in the salvation of all has caused me to be more understanding and loving toward other people who believe differently than me. I now know that it is God who is working in us all both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

CHB

Offline sheila

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Re: questioning our motivations
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2011, 07:56:37 PM »
    Jesus healed ten lepers..only one came back in appreciation to give thanks..the salvation of all..is just like that.    10% tithe to Him is obtained that way

Offline Molly

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Re: questioning our motivations
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2011, 08:31:57 PM »
    Jesus healed ten lepers..only one came back in appreciation to give thanks..the salvation of all..is just like that.    10% tithe to Him is obtained that way
And, the ten percent is the sheaf offering, the first fruits, waved in front of God by the priests to signify the Spirit.

All we have to offer Him is Christ.

PaoloNuevo

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Re: questioning our motivations
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2011, 12:23:13 AM »
Maybe some of us leave churches because "the system" might just be too legalistic. Knowing God won't hit us with divine tantrums for it allows us to be cut a little more slack in breaking the fellowship rule...

And who knows? Maybe we can reach more people with the simplicity of Christ.

To me Jesus, only taught one Law. And that is the golden rule (Matt 7: 12)

But it's good that sanctification is being talked about. UR or not, the first steps is salvation and justification through faith. And as we mature, we pursue sanctification. But I think there are a lot of ways to do that without having to join a church.

If we want to be strict to the letter, we don't have to fellowship with ET's because we don't want to compromise and preach another Gospel other than the True and Victorious Gospel (Gal. 1: 8)

but then again the letter kills and the Spirit makes alive. So I think it's a balancing act at times, in the way we relate to people. :2c:

Offline jabcat

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Re: questioning our motivations
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2011, 12:42:39 AM »
But it's good that sanctification is being talked about. UR or not, the first steps is salvation and justification through faith. And as we mature, we pursue sanctification. But I think there are a lot of ways to do that without having to join a church.

So I think it's a balancing act at times, in the way we relate to people. :2c:

Amen  :thumbsup:.  We "join the ecclesia" when we're called out (saved).   I fail miserably, but I believe we are to live that every day as we interact with others - be salt and light through His power- not just by having a name on a roll of manmade membership.  I don't condemn, but that's my own personal view.   :HeartThrob:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline micah7:9

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Re: questioning our motivations
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2011, 01:13:44 AM »
That's a pretty good personal view in my personal view (HaHaHeHe) No I like your view :bigGrin:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline shawn

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Re: questioning our motivations
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2011, 03:47:09 AM »
In the crowds I walk in...examining of self, motivations, relationships is life or death.  Alcoholics and addicts are taught to do this daily.  For me, pride is a killer and a problem.  I really like the trinkets of pride people throw my way.  And if I choose to play with them, I am sicker for it.  Anything that I choose to use to exalt myself above others will bring me illness.  And when I speak of illness I speak of spiritual sickness.  I found myself very much getting prideful with UR beliefs.  I found myself judging other Christians who believed in ET.  I still struggle with it at times.  And we should be VERY mindful of not becoming what we ourselves loathe.

As for believeing in UR because it's what I want to believe...yeah I ask myself that sometimes.  Don't we all want spiritual security for ourselves, our family and our friends?  No one wants to believe in an eternity of seperation or fire.  Who can even reconcil that with our God who loves agape.  For me, I was at a crossroads...I couldn't fully embrace or love God if he would torture His creation endlessly.  I had to believe something else.  I couldn't go on believing as I did.  So, do I wonder if that shaded my judgment...sure.  With that said, I wasn't given UR belief overnight.  Search out my posts here.  Do I believe it now?  Yep.  Why?  Because I believe it has been a process of God revealing parts of his nature to me.  It took awhile for my head to catch up with what my spirit already knew many years ago.  Why do I believe it's of God and not of satan?  Because I look at the the fruit.  I long for relationship with my Savior, have seen the hand of sanctification in my life, and have grown in my walk with Him.  The fruit of UR in my life has been good.  The fruit of ET was bad.  It really is that simple for me now.  I believe what is being whispered into my spirit.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 03:51:11 AM by shawn »

PaoloNuevo

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Re: questioning our motivations
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2011, 06:01:19 AM »
Quote
Amen  :thumbsup:.  We "join the ecclesia" when we're called out (saved).   I fail miserably, but I believe we are to live that every day as we interact with others - be salt and light through His power- not just by having a name on a roll of manmade membership.  I don't condemn, but that's my own personal view.   :HeartThrob:

Living it everyday, to everyone. Amen, James...  :cloud9:

Offline thinktank

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Re: questioning our motivations
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2011, 09:07:48 PM »
In the crowds I walk in...examining of self, motivations, relationships is life or death.  Alcoholics and addicts are taught to do this daily.  For me, pride is a killer and a problem.  I really like the trinkets of pride people throw my way.  And if I choose to play with them, I am sicker for it.  Anything that I choose to use to exalt myself above others will bring me illness.  And when I speak of illness I speak of spiritual sickness.  I found myself very much getting prideful with UR beliefs.  I found myself judging other Christians who believed in ET.  I still struggle with it at times.  And we should be VERY mindful of not becoming what we ourselves loathe.

As for believeing in UR because it's what I want to believe...yeah I ask myself that sometimes.  Don't we all want spiritual security for ourselves, our family and our friends?  No one wants to believe in an eternity of seperation or fire.  Who can even reconcil that with our God who loves agape.  For me, I was at a crossroads...I couldn't fully embrace or love God if he would torture His creation endlessly.  I had to believe something else.  I couldn't go on believing as I did.  So, do I wonder if that shaded my judgment...sure.  With that said, I wasn't given UR belief overnight.  Search out my posts here.  Do I believe it now?  Yep.  Why?  Because I believe it has been a process of God revealing parts of his nature to me.  It took awhile for my head to catch up with what my spirit already knew many years ago.  Why do I believe it's of God and not of satan?  Because I look at the the fruit.  I long for relationship with my Savior, have seen the hand of sanctification in my life, and have grown in my walk with Him.  The fruit of UR in my life has been good.  The fruit of ET was bad.  It really is that simple for me now.  I believe what is being whispered into my spirit.

Good thoughts. Your one of the most honest christian I have met.


Offline Nathan

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Re: questioning our motivations
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2011, 12:16:03 AM »
Shawn I agree,that was beautifully written.  You're a breath of fresh air bro.

Offline shawn

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Re: questioning our motivations
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2011, 01:56:19 AM »
I appreciate the kind words but honesty isn't easy for me.  I'm a liar by nature.  It's something I have to work on daily.