Author Topic: 'In Christ'...How?  (Read 4185 times)

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Offline gregoryfl

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Re: 'In Christ'...How?
« Reply #75 on: July 31, 2014, 02:34:18 AM »
I will share one more point which I think everyone can agree on, even though there be differences of understanding in our earthly experience.

Solomon spoke of, not only the heaven we see above, but also the heaven of heavens, not being able to contain God, which the ancients understood to mean that all creation is in God, like a womb inside a mother:

But will God in very deed dwell on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens can't contain you; how much less this house that I have built!
(1Ki 8:27)

Now from man's experience, they could argue with Solomon saying, "Of course he dwells on the earth...he is dwelling in the most holy place is he not?" And they would be correct, but that does not mean Solomon was not correct. They both would be, it is all a matter of perspective. One doesn't discount the other.

Speaking of the Word, before becoming flesh, John wrote that everything that is created was created in the Word:

Everything existed by his hand and without him not even one [thing] existed. That which existed in him was life and the life was the light of men.
 (Joh 1:3-4 MGI)

And then, to me, the most powerful expression of this truth is Paul's witness, that everything that was built, including thrones, lordships, rulers, and authorities, which we in the East understand to mean evil powers of darkness, was built in him, and that they stand in him. Apart from him nothing can exist, or stand:

 And in him everything that is in heaven and on earth was built, all that is seen and all that is not seen, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities, everything [is] by way of him and was built in him. And he is in front of all and everything stands in him.
 (Col 1:16-17 MGI)

Those espousing dualistic Greek thinking will probably not like this, but it is what the earliest believers understood, and is why I share it as an alternative starting point, the one Athanasius held to, instead of the more common understanding today built out of a framework starting from separation, as Augustine held to.

This that I have shared is not in opposition to one's responsibility to confess Yeshua, to turn to God, to live as one connected to the Head, who is Messiah, nor of the need to be saved.

If people are in a room full of light and their eyes are closed, they will be fumbling as those who are lost in the dark. This does not negate both truths, that they are in the room, and in the light (God's reality), yet at the same time, they are walking in darkness (man's reality). They do not need to have someone lead them to the room to enter it (they are already inside it). What they need is for someone like Paul to 'open their eyes, so that they will turn from darkness to the light and from the authority of Satan to God and they will receive forgiveness of sins and a portion with the holy [ones] by faith that [is] in me.' (Act 26:18 MGI)

They are like the Greeks he spoke to, who were blindly groping about trying to find the God they were inside the whole time! This is why there is so much emphasis on opening the eyes, having the eyes of the heart enlightened, etc, not for the purpose of entering into Messiah, but to realize where they are and grow in their experience of that truth.

Offline Seth

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Re: 'In Christ'...How?
« Reply #76 on: July 31, 2014, 02:46:45 AM »
I understand what you are getting at and I am glad that we agree on faith in Christ and salvation etc. I just want to share how I see this scripture:

John 7:37-39
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


It's not that the Holy Spirit has been given but not everyone realizes it within themselves. "The Holy Ghost was not yet given" in the first place. You cannot awake to something within you which has not even been given yet.  Even the prophets had the Spirit in them, but not this manifestation. Christ THROUGH the Spirit unto "living waters that flow outwardly" had not been given yet at the moment, and it is only given to the believers.

Jesus had to be glorified first, because he would come to his disciples at Pentacost in a manner not yet seen and this gift would only be given to the believer. Of course, this gets into a whole trinity debate I don't want to get into.

But even we agree basically, I cannot say that the Holy Spirit had already been given, when John says, "it had not yet been given."

Offline gregoryfl

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Re: 'In Christ'...How?
« Reply #77 on: July 31, 2014, 03:05:05 AM »
Even the prophets had the Spirit in them, but not this manifestation. Christ THROUGH the Spirit unto "living waters that flow outwardly" had not been given yet at the moment, and it is only given to the believers.

I agree wholeheartedly. There is a big difference in my understanding between Messiah being in us, and us being in Messiah, and us 'having Messiah'. John wrote of those who have Messiah and those who do not, when he wrote:

Everyone who holds fast to the Son also holds fast to life. And everyone who does not hold fast to the Son of God does not have life to him. (1Jo 5:12 MGI)

Here, holding fast to the Son is what you in the West would understand to mean 'having' or 'possessing the Son'.

Quote
But even we agree basically, I cannot say that the Holy Spirit had already been given, when John says, "it had not yet been given."
Very true. The Spirit was not given. In fact, Yeshua, after his resurrection, breathed on them saying, "Receive the Rukha d'Qdshah!
(Joh 20:22)

These I believe to be manifestations, that which we as humans could relate to, things pertaining to our experience. Thus, the Spirit did not fill them until Shavuot, when they were in the upper room.

As related to the greater reality though, what I see is that they did have the Spirit indwelling them, which Yeshua said was the case before the Spirit was breathed on them and given later:

And I will ask of my Father and he will give you another Deliverer, who will be with you forever, the Spirit of truth that the world is not able to receive, because it has not seen him and does not know him. But you know him, because he lives with you and he is in you.
 (Joh 14:16-17 MGI)

I am aware of the difference between the Aramaic and the Greek here, for the Greek reads:

the spirit of truth, which the world can not get, for it is not beholding it, neither is knowing it. Yet you know it, for it is remaining with you and will be in you."
(Joh 14:17)

As everyone here probably knows by now, the 1st century writings I primarily hold to are those of the Aramaic, (which is a whole different debate which I also would prefer not getting into) so I naturally lean toward the Aramaic's reading, and see it as harmonious with everything else, although others no doubt would disagree. I can understand that, and am fine with it. Again, this is all just sharing of another perspective to consider.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 03:08:19 AM by gregoryfl »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: 'In Christ'...How?
« Reply #78 on: July 31, 2014, 08:02:00 AM »
Joh 4:24  God is Spirit......always been there, the workings certainly are different. :dsunny:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: 'In Christ'...How?
« Reply #79 on: July 31, 2014, 08:32:05 AM »
I agree that the early writings were most likely in Aramaic, and believe those writings would carry the Hebrew mind-set more clearly than the later Greek translations/interpretaions/transliterations.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com