Author Topic: Sin Unto Death  (Read 285 times)

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Offline jabcat

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Sin Unto Death
« on: March 02, 2015, 12:14:25 AM »
KJV -  I John 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Aramaic Version -  If a man sees his brother who sins a sin that is not worthy of death, let him ask, and Life will be given to him for those who are not sinning unto death; for there is mortal sin; I do not say that a man should pray for this.

Firstly, I see some minor (but significant?) translation differences.  In the Aramaic, the 'L' in Life is capitalized (a certain kind of Life, or plain old life, aka, continuing to breathe?).  It also says 'mortal sin', which I always just sort of figured was a Catholic deal, but maybe I was mistaken.

I've read multiple interpretations of this, including "Bible Threatenings Explained" on the TM site.  I personally have various thoughts on it, but I'm curious;

Anyone have any insight into this?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 12:19:11 AM by jabcat »
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Offline eaglesway

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Re: Sin Unto Death
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2015, 02:31:59 AM »
I believe it means that for lesser sins we can intercede and God will give them life, which to me means this. The wages of sin is death, but if you intercede for someone commiting one of these sins, God will give them life, mercy to cover the naturally incurred penalty, forgiveness, healing, etc.

A sin unto death(imo) is any of the sins for which death was the penalty in OT. Murder, adultery, witchcraft, etc.- eggregious sins for which there can be no deliverance from the consequence without repentance, and sometimes even then, after repentance, there are still naturally incurring penalties that cannot be avoided, even tho God has forgiven a truly repentant offender.
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Offline Seth

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Re: Sin Unto Death
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2015, 02:45:17 AM »
I believe it means that for lesser sins we can intercede and God will give them life, which to me means this. The wages of sin is death, but if you intercede for someone commiting one of these sins, God will give them life, mercy to cover the naturally incurred penalty, forgiveness, healing, etc.

A sin unto death(imo) is any of the sins for which death was the penalty in OT. Murder, adultery, witchcraft, etc.- eggregious sins for which there can be no deliverance from the consequence without repentance, and sometimes even then, after repentance, there are still naturally incurring penalties that cannot be avoided, even tho God has forgiven a truly repentant offender.

Great take on it

Offline jabcat

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Re: Sin Unto Death
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2015, 07:41:11 AM »
I like that better than about anything else I've read on it. 

Do you/"we" think there are different levels of sin then, i.e., some worse than others?  I think I'm wrong, but it seems to me that under the new covenant that wouldn't be the case. 

Many commentators compare the "sin unto death" to Ananias and Saphira, while others say no, that occurred during a specific time period and wouldn't occur anymore.  Others say there may be a point in a person's disobedience, if it's continual, willful, without repentance, that God may "take them home early" (directly cause their "premature" physical death).

Bottom line John, it sounds like you're saying it's not that God would "kill someone" for disobedience or for certain sins, but rather there are different consequences/gravity?

Anyone else anything to add?

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Offline eaglesway

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Re: Sin Unto Death
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2015, 08:46:39 AM »
Yes, I think some sins are worse than others, under both the old and new testament. Paul sort of showed this in his response to the situation where a man had his father's wife and was delivered over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh.

In 1 Tim 1:20 Paul delivered Hymeneus and Philetus, false teachers, over to Satan that they might "learn not to blaspheme". In Acts Ananias and Saphira were slain for "lying to the Holy Ghost" in the midst of a massive move of the Spirit.

There is more mercy in the New testament, in that we may repent even grievous sins and be forgiven and released from condemnation and restored to fellowship, where under the OT judgment was irrevocable even after repentence, like Achan in Joshua 7, who repented but was executed anyway, and gave glory to God for it. But there are still occasions where certain levels of sin will bring a swift response form God.

I pesonally see it like this.

Maybe you see a brother or sister who has a drinking problem, a problem with their temper, a jealousy problem, gossip, or a pride issue, a bad habit.

You can pray for that. God will hear your prayer and give life to them, even to the point of remedying the problem. I have seen this at work over the years, and seen God answer such prayers, sometimes surprisingly quickly, sometimes over time. We never know when a brother or sister is just stuck, or if they are in a valley of decision concerning a fault, stuck in a character flaw, or what- so we pray, we intercede, and God who knows the hearts answers accordingly.

But if a brother or a sister is committing adultery, you can pray for them to repent. You can pray that God changes their heart. But unless they repent they will suffer consequences for that sin, and even if they repent they may suffer grievous consequences, and no amount of prayer will change that. God will not give them life for that sin because of another believer's intercession. They must repent in order to receive life and be restored to fellowship.  :2c:



« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 08:54:04 AM by eaglesway »
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Offline jabcat

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Re: Sin Unto Death
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2015, 09:04:54 AM »
God will not give them life for that sin because of another believer's intercession. They must repent in order to receive life and be restored to fellowship.  :2c:

Thanks John.  Again, makes a lot of sense.  In this context, how would you define life (again, for whatever it's worth, the Aramaic translation says 'Life'.)
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Offline eaglesway

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Re: Sin Unto Death
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2015, 09:23:33 AM »
I define life in this context as the abiding blessing of the saint in right standing with God. Continuing wholeness of spirit soul and body in the grace and blessing of the Lord.
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Offline jabcat

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Re: Sin Unto Death
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2015, 09:56:12 AM »
As I process through this, I tend to agree with you about 'life'.  In that context, capitalizing the 'L' does make sense.  A quality/type of life, rather than just breathing.

Sort of like the whole discussion on the Kingdom of God.  At least one definition I see there is, "righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit", which for me is aka "walking closely with Him, surrendered, having a clean conscience", etc. (to hijack my own thread :)
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Offline eaglesway

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Re: Sin Unto Death
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2015, 10:06:23 AM »
As I process through this, I tend to agree with you about 'life'.  In that context, capitalizing the 'L' does make sense.  A quality/type of life, rather than just breathing.

Sort of like the whole discussion on the Kingdom of God.  At least one definition I see there is, "righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit", which for me is aka "walking closely with Him, surrendered, having a clean conscience", etc. (to hijack my own thread :)

Actually, that was the definition I started to give for Life. :o) Righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. For me, all things New Testament must be viewed in the context of the kingdom of God.
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Offline joeteekay

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Re: Sin Unto Death
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2015, 09:01:28 PM »
Very good points concerning I John5:16. Appreciate the thoughts.
I often wondered about this business of lesser sins and greater sins.
Catholics say venial sins vs. moral sins, and they have a point (IMO).

But the statement that the wages of sin is death is true, but that does not imply that sin cannot be forgiven and repented of, either in this life or in the LoF.

Intercessory prayer is a reality. Pray for one another. The prayer of a righteous person avails much. Godly sorrow works repentance. Repentance is the vital ingredient.
Interesting comment James about  Ananias and Saphira and John concerning the man who had his fathers wife.  Ananias and Saphira - sin unto death.

Also instructions concerning correcting faults given in Mat. 18 and Gal. 6

Gal_6:1  Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Mat 18:15  Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16  But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.


Also from the CLV

I John 5: 15 And if ever we are aware that He is hearing us, whatever we may be requesting, we are aware that we have the requests which we have requested from Him.
16 If anyone should be perceiving his brother sinning a sin not to death, he shall be requesting, and He will be giving him life for those sinning not to death. There is a sin to death: I am not saying that he should be asking concerning that.
17 All injustice is sin, and there is a sin not to death.


So we REQUEST either by using the approach of Mat 18/Gal 6 or through prayer. I am agreeing with the posts.  :2thumbs:
3 John 4 - I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

Offline Seth

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Re: Sin Unto Death
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2015, 10:44:48 PM »
Great conversation. Also, the Bible defines life as in "that they may know thee and the one you have sent" (John 17:3). What it means to know God could be a whole discussion, but given that "a widow who seeks after pleasure is dead, though she is alive" suggests to me that, hypothetically, an immortal who didn't have knowledge of God and deliverance from sin isn't truly alive though he breathes and has literal consciousness.  :2c:

Offline jabcat

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Re: Sin Unto Death
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2015, 10:58:05 PM »
 :thumbsup:
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Offline sheila

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Re: Sin Unto Death
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2015, 11:15:19 PM »
  I think it noteworthy that Matthew  18 is in regard to a brother that sins against you...and afterward Peter approached Jesus

  about how many times he should forgive said brother 'up to 7 times'? of which Jesus said..no up to 77 times .  and then taught through

the parable of the unmerciful servant....patience...[it is not always easy to overcome habitual unloving ways]

  Paul spoke of ...'taking to court 1 Cor 6...the very fact that you have lawsuits among you means that you have been completely

 defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? why not rather be cheated? the following paragraph speaks of the wicked/cheaters

  greedy drunkards,slanderers,swindlers etc  even lesser sins..not inheriting along with the 'biggies' adulterers homosexuals fornicators etc.

Offline dajomaco

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Re: Sin Unto Death
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2015, 03:56:13 AM »
I John 5: 21

 Dear children, keep yourselves from idols.

We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

Could the sin that leads to death be sinning to purposely honor the devil.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Sin Unto Death
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2015, 04:12:49 AM »
Quote
the following paragraph speaks of the wicked/cheaters

  greedy drunkards,slanderers,swindlers etc  even lesser sins..not inheriting along with the 'biggies' adulterers homosexuals fornicators etc.

Yes, but John is not speaking of "greedy drunkards, slanderers, swindlers etc.". When he said, "If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not unto death", he was not speaking of someone who willfully and wantonly and consistently practices sins, such as a greedy drunkard, or a swindler, etc.....

The Lord Jesus said, "if your brother sins against you 7 x 7, and repent forgive him." Would these be counted among greedy drunkards, etc?

Paul also said, "if you find a brother in a fault, let those who are spiritual among you restore such a one, in a spirit of meekness"...

This is the spirit in which I hear John is speaking. This is the measure in the balance which John is revealing.

I see seven levels of response/judgment, all beginning with US, ALL requiring discernment :o)

1 If you see a brother committing a sin not unto death, pray for him".... the discernment leads to a secret response of intercessionary prayer. Havent we all struggled with such things, and don't we all still struggle with something? As James says, "We all stumbe in many ways".

2 "If you find a brother in a fault, let those who are spiritual among you restore such a one in a spirit of meekness "considering your own selves" .....the discernment leads to "come let us reason together"- counsel and restoration

3 "If a brother sins against you go, in private, to him and speak with him, and if he repents you, you have won your brother"..... the discernment leads to an appeal

4 "If he does not hear you, go with another (you may find your compaint is not properly founded, or you may find that it is)..... the discernemt leads to a stronger appeal with a consequence of exposure.

5 "If he does not hear you with another witness take him before the assembly(know you not you shall judge the world? know you not you will judge angels? can you not resolve disputes among yourselves?)..... the discernemnt leads to an appeal with exposure and a potential consequence of stern discipline

6 "If he does not hear the church, let him be as a sinner and a publican" .....the discernment leads to a tribunal and possible sentencing of judgment.

7 "I have decided to deliver such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his spirit may be saved in the Day" (Jannes &Jambres, Hymenias & Philetus, the man who had his father's wife, Annanias and Sephira)..... the discernment leads to judgment and sentencing without appeal.

Notice that in ALL of these there is care for the offender. The first two maintain the strictest confidence and discretion(in the closet, not before men). The second two are still in the nature of an appeal to "reason together, tho your sins be as scarlet I will make them white as snow), the fifth is a tribunal, where the offender is brought out in the open almost as in an earthly grand jury- but still holds the opportunity to repent and be restored to fellowship, forgiveness and right standing.. The sixth is stern discipline, a sentence passed- but only until such a one should repent and return- STILL to be reconciled upon humbling himself......

2 Cor 3 6 Sufficient for such a one is this punishment which was inflicted by the majority, 7 so that on the contrary you should rather forgive and comfort him, otherwise such a one might be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 Wherefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him..

The seventh is a sentence passed, sometimes without remediation in this life, referred to the grand tribunal at the Great White Throne- but STILL remedial("That they may learn not to blasphpheme"..."That his spirit may be saved in the Day")

Behold the goodness of the Lord whose judgment is swallowed up in mercy and whose righteousness and peace are kissing one another!

I would add, that in the light of the clear demonstration that God's ultimate intention is restoration in evry one of these levels of discernment/judgement, Why should it surprise anyone that the 8th level of judgment and beyond(after the second resurrection)- whatever that is(I am not drawing hard lines here LOL, I see these things in principle flowing in and out of one another) would be for the ultimate purpose of restoration also- the discernment/judgment of the wicked is also remedial. Glory to God, I just love it :o)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 04:56:12 AM by eaglesway »
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Offline sheila

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Re: Sin Unto Death
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2015, 04:40:12 PM »
TY John for writing this post.  I've been contemplating the loving,caring sheepfold arrangement the

   Lord set up,with shepherds to look after after His.  So, very very sad..that wolves infiltrated

   and did not treat the flock with tenderness....and the protective care/oversite meant by the Lord

  oftentimes become a preying on believers..

                                                                         TY again,

Offline dajomaco

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Re: Sin Unto Death
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2015, 09:20:02 PM »
These wolfs are not lone wolfs.
These wolves roam in pacts called denominations.
They drive out of the pack those you interpret the bible differently.
They give themselves degrees and awards for this.

To pray for someone's ministry ( a ministry that teaches ET )
Is to pray for the sin that leads to death.

It will take the power of Love to release their captives.
The word spoken in Love.
 

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Sin Unto Death
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2015, 09:35:41 PM »
Well said! :dsunny:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline sheila

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Re: Sin Unto Death
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2015, 10:49:04 PM »
  I just watched a very lovely video on you-tube by Gary called  the gospel to the abused dogs.....sweet, I thought about this thread when

  I watched it.